49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by thl408:
It's an interesting hypothesis, that complexity can be the factor in having more OL injuries. I don't think comparing the amount of injuries with other teams' OLs is the way to test it. There are too many variables with the main variable being the players - some guys simply get injured easier. We need a medical expert to tell us if different blocking movements contribute to a higher chance of injury. Do the different movements asked of Kyle's OL put additional stress on their bodies? Outside/inside zone, pulling, combo block get to second level, block on edges, pass block, pull, all require different movements.

What types of injuries are the 49er OLmen suffering from, and did the play on which they were injured (scheme) a factor? For example, if an OLman is hurt running outside the tackle box, that can be considered a scheme factor since Kyle asks his OL to do this often (probably towards top of the league, just a guess). Look more at the team itself, not around the league tallying up OL injuries. imo.

What about comparing similar schemes? I feel that would be a good indicator . Could be wrong though . As it's been noted, many variables at play

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years. But how does it compare to other regimes around the NFL? If we don't have numbers to actually compare than it is nothing more than an assumption that we go through them at a higher rate.

The theory wasn't in comparison to other teams. It was noting this system here. There's no secret this system here eats through OL, TE's and RB's.

Even QB's. But that's another topic. Haha.

We have had the same #1 TE since the beginning of the Kyle Shanahan era. Are you really arguing about numbers 2's who don't see a lot of playing time?

As far as RB's, I would argue that no other system in the NFL has proven to get as much production from UDRFA RB's than Kyle. Who cares if they only last 1-2 seasons? They are cheap and seem to be a dime a dozen for this system.

When it comes to OL, it would be disingenuous to diminish the importance of comparing the rate of turnover with this team/system and other teams/systems.

No, I'm theorizing the volume of players used to execute and get through a season at those 3 positions over the past 6 years is incredibly large. That speaks to volume and complexity within the system. What, how and how much can = more risk of injury. You obviously see that now with OL but you can't with RB and TE and by default "the offensive system?" Or philosophy within it?

Incredibly large compared to what? What have I obviously seen now with the OL? I see players get hurt every Sunday. No team is immune. You know damn well I can be persuaded to take another stance. If you have actual numbers to compare than I would be inclined to side with you if your argument was proven by statistical analysis.

Your own quote.

Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years.

Compared to what though? Its relevant to know whether its excessive or in line with the rest of the league. I could say $1000.00 is a lot of money but compared to someone who makes 200k+ a year, it might just be a normal weekend with the boys.

If you feel the need to compare our system and injuries to others, you're welcomed too. The Rams run a pass centric version of Kyle's offense and they are annually the #1 healthiest team in the league. My theory was never comparing us to others.

Like injuries, it's recognizing what happens here annually in this system and protecting yourself for the inevitable. Kyle is getting it. It doesn't sound like our fans are there quite yet?

You can also look across the league to see who carries 10 OL (only need to carry 8 active on game days and that includes call ups from the PS), 4-6 RB's + FB and 3-4 TE's in volume combination.

Kyle chooses the 53 and he's telling you how he's going to play it and how much he needs to make it through the year doing it.

Pass centric started last year with stafford. Let's use 2020 as a point of reference when the niners were decimated
Niners-537 passing attempts and 430 rushing attempts
Rams-548 passing attempts and 388 rushing attempts

Sure. They were #1 in health and we were 29th.

For whatever reason, volume+complexity+reliance (my theory) = eating through those positions Kyle leans on heavily in his system.

So why do you think they consistently have less injuries to those positions than us despite running the same system?

It's an interesting hypothesis, that complexity can be the factor in having more OL injuries. I don't think comparing the amount of injuries with other teams' OLs is the way to test it. There are too many variables with the main variable being the players - some guys simply get injured easier. We need a medical expert to tell us if different blocking movements contribute to a higher chance of injury. Do the different movements asked of Kyle's OL put additional stress on their bodies? Outside/inside zone, pulling, combo block get to second level, block on edges, pass block, pull, all require different movements.

What types of injuries are the 49er OLmen suffering from, and did the play on which they were injured (scheme) a factor? For example, if an OLman is hurt running outside the tackle box, that can be considered a scheme factor since Kyle asks his OL to do this often (probably towards top of the league, just a guess). Look more at the team itself, not around the league tallying up OL injuries. imo.

If you actually try to figure that out it will take the narrative away.

right now it's a quantity over quality issue. Hopefully we got some quality guys now, time will tell

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by thl408:
It's an interesting hypothesis, that complexity can be the factor in having more OL injuries. I don't think comparing the amount of injuries with other teams' OLs is the way to test it. There are too many variables with the main variable being the players - some guys simply get injured easier. We need a medical expert to tell us if different blocking movements contribute to a higher chance of injury. Do the different movements asked of Kyle's OL put additional stress on their bodies? Outside/inside zone, pulling, combo block get to second level, block on edges, pass block, pull, all require different movements.

What types of injuries are the 49er OLmen suffering from, and did the play on which they were injured (scheme) a factor? For example, if an OLman is hurt running outside the tackle box, that can be considered a scheme factor since Kyle asks his OL to do this often (probably towards top of the league, just a guess). Look more at the team itself, not around the league tallying up OL injuries. imo.

What about comparing similar schemes? I feel that would be a good indicator . Could be wrong though . As it's been noted, many variables at play

Kyle has his own scheme. McVay, LaFluer, Kyle, they may have come up together, but they have all done things their own way once they became the main shotcaller. When it comes to the run game, Kyle is in his own tier compared to the other two.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years. But how does it compare to other regimes around the NFL? If we don't have numbers to actually compare than it is nothing more than an assumption that we go through them at a higher rate.

The theory wasn't in comparison to other teams. It was noting this system here. There's no secret this system here eats through OL, TE's and RB's.

Even QB's. But that's another topic. Haha.

We have had the same #1 TE since the beginning of the Kyle Shanahan era. Are you really arguing about numbers 2's who don't see a lot of playing time?

As far as RB's, I would argue that no other system in the NFL has proven to get as much production from UDRFA RB's than Kyle. Who cares if they only last 1-2 seasons? They are cheap and seem to be a dime a dozen for this system.

When it comes to OL, it would be disingenuous to diminish the importance of comparing the rate of turnover with this team/system and other teams/systems.

No, I'm theorizing the volume of players used to execute and get through a season at those 3 positions over the past 6 years is incredibly large. That speaks to volume and complexity within the system. What, how and how much can = more risk of injury. You obviously see that now with OL but you can't with RB and TE and by default "the offensive system?" Or philosophy within it?

Incredibly large compared to what? What have I obviously seen now with the OL? I see players get hurt every Sunday. No team is immune. You know damn well I can be persuaded to take another stance. If you have actual numbers to compare than I would be inclined to side with you if your argument was proven by statistical analysis.

Your own quote.

Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years.

Compared to what though? Its relevant to know whether its excessive or in line with the rest of the league. I could say $1000.00 is a lot of money but compared to someone who makes 200k+ a year, it might just be a normal weekend with the boys.

If you feel the need to compare our system and injuries to others, you're welcomed too. The Rams run a pass centric version of Kyle's offense and they are annually the #1 healthiest team in the league. My theory was never comparing us to others.

Like injuries, it's recognizing what happens here annually in this system and protecting yourself for the inevitable. Kyle is getting it. It doesn't sound like our fans are there quite yet?

You can also look across the league to see who carries 10 OL (only need to carry 8 active on game days and that includes call ups from the PS), 4-6 RB's + FB and 3-4 TE's in volume combination.

Kyle chooses the 53 and he's telling you how he's going to play it and how much he needs to make it through the year doing it.

Pass centric started last year with stafford. Let's use 2020 as a point of reference when the niners were decimated
Niners-537 passing attempts and 430 rushing attempts
Rams-548 passing attempts and 388 rushing attempts

Sure. They were #1 in health and we were 29th.

For whatever reason, volume+complexity+reliance (my theory) = eating through those positions Kyle leans on heavily in his system.

So why do you think they consistently have less injuries to those positions than us despite running the same system?

It's an interesting hypothesis, that complexity can be the factor in having more OL injuries. I don't think comparing the amount of injuries with other teams' OLs is the way to test it. There are too many variables with the main variable being the players - some guys simply get injured easier. We need a medical expert to tell us if different blocking movements contribute to a higher chance of injury. Do the different movements asked of Kyle's OL put additional stress on their bodies? Outside/inside zone, pulling, combo block get to second level, block on edges, pass block, pull, all require different movements.

What types of injuries are the 49er OLmen suffering from, and did the play on which they were injured (scheme) a factor? For example, if an OLman is hurt running outside the tackle box, that can be considered a scheme factor since Kyle asks his OL to do this often (probably towards top of the league, just a guess). Look more at the team itself, not around the league tallying up OL injuries. imo.

If you actually try to figure that out it will take the narrative away.

right now it's a quantity over quality issue. Hopefully we got some quality guys now, time will tell

I'm really curious if asking the body to do all the different movements puts added stress on ligaments/muscles compared to less variety of movements, same number of reps. If an OL executed 100 drive blocking reps, and then the same OLman did 25oz, 25iz, 25pass block, 25run then block downfield - which put more stress on the body? Just an example to explain what I meant.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years. But how does it compare to other regimes around the NFL? If we don't have numbers to actually compare than it is nothing more than an assumption that we go through them at a higher rate.

The theory wasn't in comparison to other teams. It was noting this system here. There's no secret this system here eats through OL, TE's and RB's.

Even QB's. But that's another topic. Haha.

We have had the same #1 TE since the beginning of the Kyle Shanahan era. Are you really arguing about numbers 2's who don't see a lot of playing time?

As far as RB's, I would argue that no other system in the NFL has proven to get as much production from UDRFA RB's than Kyle. Who cares if they only last 1-2 seasons? They are cheap and seem to be a dime a dozen for this system.

When it comes to OL, it would be disingenuous to diminish the importance of comparing the rate of turnover with this team/system and other teams/systems.

No, I'm theorizing the volume of players used to execute and get through a season at those 3 positions over the past 6 years is incredibly large. That speaks to volume and complexity within the system. What, how and how much can = more risk of injury. You obviously see that now with OL but you can't with RB and TE and by default "the offensive system?" Or philosophy within it?

Incredibly large compared to what? What have I obviously seen now with the OL? I see players get hurt every Sunday. No team is immune. You know damn well I can be persuaded to take another stance. If you have actual numbers to compare than I would be inclined to side with you if your argument was proven by statistical analysis.

Your own quote.

Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years.

Compared to what though? Its relevant to know whether its excessive or in line with the rest of the league. I could say $1000.00 is a lot of money but compared to someone who makes 200k+ a year, it might just be a normal weekend with the boys.

If you feel the need to compare our system and injuries to others, you're welcomed too. The Rams run a pass centric version of Kyle's offense and they are annually the #1 healthiest team in the league. My theory was never comparing us to others.

Like injuries, it's recognizing what happens here annually in this system and protecting yourself for the inevitable. Kyle is getting it. It doesn't sound like our fans are there quite yet?

You can also look across the league to see who carries 10 OL (only need to carry 8 active on game days and that includes call ups from the PS), 4-6 RB's + FB and 3-4 TE's in volume combination.

Kyle chooses the 53 and he's telling you how he's going to play it and how much he needs to make it through the year doing it.

Pass centric started last year with stafford. Let's use 2020 as a point of reference when the niners were decimated
Niners-537 passing attempts and 430 rushing attempts
Rams-548 passing attempts and 388 rushing attempts

Sure. They were #1 in health and we were 29th.

For whatever reason, volume+complexity+reliance (my theory) = eating through those positions Kyle leans on heavily in his system.

So why do you think they consistently have less injuries to those positions than us despite running the same system?

It's an interesting hypothesis, that complexity can be the factor in having more OL injuries. I don't think comparing the amount of injuries with other teams' OLs is the way to test it. There are too many variables with the main variable being the players - some guys simply get injured easier. We need a medical expert to tell us if different blocking movements contribute to a higher chance of injury. Do the different movements asked of Kyle's OL put additional stress on their bodies? Outside/inside zone, pulling, combo block get to second level, block on edges, pass block, pull, all require different movements.

What types of injuries are the 49er OLmen suffering from, and did the play on which they were injured (scheme) a factor? For example, if an OLman is hurt running outside the tackle box, that can be considered a scheme factor since Kyle asks his OL to do this often (probably towards top of the league, just a guess). Look more at the team itself, not around the league tallying up OL injuries. imo.

If you actually try to figure that out it will take the narrative away.

right now it's a quantity over quality issue. Hopefully we got some quality guys now, time will tell

I'm really curious if asking the body to do all the different movements puts added stress on ligaments/muscles compared to less variety of movements, same number of reps. If an OL executed 100 drive blocking reps, and then the same OLman did 25oz, 25iz, 25pass block, 25run then block downfield - which put more stress on the body? Just an example to explain what I meant.

You need to find the injury, then diagnose. OL get rolled up on a lot but that not system or scheme.

Originally posted by thl408:
Kyle has his own scheme. McVay, LaFluer, Kyle, they may have come up together, but they have all done things their own way once they became the main shotcaller. When it comes to the run game, Kyle is in his own tier compared to the other two.

That's very true, but I have to imagine what is being asked of their OL isn't drastically different.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years. But how does it compare to other regimes around the NFL? If we don't have numbers to actually compare than it is nothing more than an assumption that we go through them at a higher rate.

The theory wasn't in comparison to other teams. It was noting this system here. There's no secret this system here eats through OL, TE's and RB's.

Even QB's. But that's another topic. Haha.

We have had the same #1 TE since the beginning of the Kyle Shanahan era. Are you really arguing about numbers 2's who don't see a lot of playing time?

As far as RB's, I would argue that no other system in the NFL has proven to get as much production from UDRFA RB's than Kyle. Who cares if they only last 1-2 seasons? They are cheap and seem to be a dime a dozen for this system.

When it comes to OL, it would be disingenuous to diminish the importance of comparing the rate of turnover with this team/system and other teams/systems.

No, I'm theorizing the volume of players used to execute and get through a season at those 3 positions over the past 6 years is incredibly large. That speaks to volume and complexity within the system. What, how and how much can = more risk of injury. You obviously see that now with OL but you can't with RB and TE and by default "the offensive system?" Or philosophy within it?

Incredibly large compared to what? What have I obviously seen now with the OL? I see players get hurt every Sunday. No team is immune. You know damn well I can be persuaded to take another stance. If you have actual numbers to compare than I would be inclined to side with you if your argument was proven by statistical analysis.

Your own quote.

Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years.

Compared to what though? Its relevant to know whether its excessive or in line with the rest of the league. I could say $1000.00 is a lot of money but compared to someone who makes 200k+ a year, it might just be a normal weekend with the boys.

If you feel the need to compare our system and injuries to others, you're welcomed too. The Rams run a pass centric version of Kyle's offense and they are annually the #1 healthiest team in the league. My theory was never comparing us to others.

Like injuries, it's recognizing what happens here annually in this system and protecting yourself for the inevitable. Kyle is getting it. It doesn't sound like our fans are there quite yet?

You can also look across the league to see who carries 10 OL (only need to carry 8 active on game days and that includes call ups from the PS), 4-6 RB's + FB and 3-4 TE's in volume combination.

Kyle chooses the 53 and he's telling you how he's going to play it and how much he needs to make it through the year doing it.

Pass centric started last year with stafford. Let's use 2020 as a point of reference when the niners were decimated
Niners-537 passing attempts and 430 rushing attempts
Rams-548 passing attempts and 388 rushing attempts

Sure. They were #1 in health and we were 29th.

For whatever reason, volume+complexity+reliance (my theory) = eating through those positions Kyle leans on heavily in his system.

So why do you think they consistently have less injuries to those positions than us despite running the same system?

It's an interesting hypothesis, that complexity can be the factor in having more OL injuries. I don't think comparing the amount of injuries with other teams' OLs is the way to test it. There are too many variables with the main variable being the players - some guys simply get injured easier. We need a medical expert to tell us if different blocking movements contribute to a higher chance of injury. Do the different movements asked of Kyle's OL put additional stress on their bodies? Outside/inside zone, pulling, combo block get to second level, block on edges, pass block, pull, all require different movements.

What types of injuries are the 49er OLmen suffering from, and did the play on which they were injured (scheme) a factor? For example, if an OLman is hurt running outside the tackle box, that can be considered a scheme factor since Kyle asks his OL to do this often (probably towards top of the league, just a guess). Look more at the team itself, not around the league tallying up OL injuries. imo.

If you actually try to figure that out it will take the narrative away.

right now it's a quantity over quality issue. Hopefully we got some quality guys now, time will tell

I'm really curious if asking the body to do all the different movements puts added stress on ligaments/muscles compared to less variety of movements, same number of reps. If an OL executed 100 drive blocking reps, and then the same OLman did 25oz, 25iz, 25pass block, 25run then block downfield - which put more stress on the body? Just an example to explain what I meant.

You need to find the injury, then diagnose. OL get rolled up on a lot but that not system or scheme.

Right. Some injuries are dumb luck. Richburg got shoved backwards on a drive block (very common block) and Person's leg was behind him, career done. I guess we can say "he's asked to do so many different blocks that he wasn't great at drive blocking, it's the scheme". Very hard to prove or disprove.

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by thl408:
Kyle has his own scheme. McVay, LaFluer, Kyle, they may have come up together, but they have all done things their own way once they became the main shotcaller. When it comes to the run game, Kyle is in his own tier compared to the other two.

That's very true, but I have to imagine what is being asked of their OL isn't drastically different.

Agree not drastically different. I'm sure PFF breaks down how many outside, inside zone, gap block, pass blocking a team does and I think the 49ers would show more variety than many other teams, so that can be quantifiable. Then we'd need more understanding of how the different movements take a toll on the body. 49ers run scheme has more variety so the OL are practicing it all. It gets technical and I don't know much, just that there is different footwork associated with different types of blocks. Is it more wear and tear for Trent to quickly run outside to the edges and hunt down a safety, or drive block the DT in front of him? No idea.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years. But how does it compare to other regimes around the NFL? If we don't have numbers to actually compare than it is nothing more than an assumption that we go through them at a higher rate.

The theory wasn't in comparison to other teams. It was noting this system here. There's no secret this system here eats through OL, TE's and RB's.

Even QB's. But that's another topic. Haha.

We have had the same #1 TE since the beginning of the Kyle Shanahan era. Are you really arguing about numbers 2's who don't see a lot of playing time?

As far as RB's, I would argue that no other system in the NFL has proven to get as much production from UDRFA RB's than Kyle. Who cares if they only last 1-2 seasons? They are cheap and seem to be a dime a dozen for this system.

When it comes to OL, it would be disingenuous to diminish the importance of comparing the rate of turnover with this team/system and other teams/systems.

No, I'm theorizing the volume of players used to execute and get through a season at those 3 positions over the past 6 years is incredibly large. That speaks to volume and complexity within the system. What, how and how much can = more risk of injury. You obviously see that now with OL but you can't with RB and TE and by default "the offensive system?" Or philosophy within it?

Incredibly large compared to what? What have I obviously seen now with the OL? I see players get hurt every Sunday. No team is immune. You know damn well I can be persuaded to take another stance. If you have actual numbers to compare than I would be inclined to side with you if your argument was proven by statistical analysis.

Your own quote.

Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years.

Compared to what though? Its relevant to know whether its excessive or in line with the rest of the league. I could say $1000.00 is a lot of money but compared to someone who makes 200k+ a year, it might just be a normal weekend with the boys.

If you feel the need to compare our system and injuries to others, you're welcomed too. The Rams run a pass centric version of Kyle's offense and they are annually the #1 healthiest team in the league. My theory was never comparing us to others.

Like injuries, it's recognizing what happens here annually in this system and protecting yourself for the inevitable. Kyle is getting it. It doesn't sound like our fans are there quite yet?

You can also look across the league to see who carries 10 OL (only need to carry 8 active on game days and that includes call ups from the PS), 4-6 RB's + FB and 3-4 TE's in volume combination.

Kyle chooses the 53 and he's telling you how he's going to play it and how much he needs to make it through the year doing it.

Pass centric started last year with stafford. Let's use 2020 as a point of reference when the niners were decimated
Niners-537 passing attempts and 430 rushing attempts
Rams-548 passing attempts and 388 rushing attempts

Sure. They were #1 in health and we were 29th.

For whatever reason, volume+complexity+reliance (my theory) = eating through those positions Kyle leans on heavily in his system.

So why do you think they consistently have less injuries to those positions than us despite running the same system?

It's an interesting hypothesis, that complexity can be the factor in having more OL injuries. I don't think comparing the amount of injuries with other teams' OLs is the way to test it. There are too many variables with the main variable being the players - some guys simply get injured easier. We need a medical expert to tell us if different blocking movements contribute to a higher chance of injury. Do the different movements asked of Kyle's OL put additional stress on their bodies? Outside/inside zone, combo block get to second level, drive block, block on edges, pass block, pull, all require different movements.

What types of injuries are the 49er OLmen suffering from, and did the play on which they were injured (scheme) a factor? For example, if an OLman is hurt running outside the tackle box, that can be considered a scheme factor since Kyle asks his OL to do this often (probably towards top of the league, just a guess). Look more at the team itself, not around the league tallying up OL injuries. imo.

For sure. Even size (quickness, mobility and explosion) over thicker, more man blocking, less movement, etc. Like MM's and Brunskill's hammy vs. TW who got a high ankle getting rolled up on being stationary.

It's starting to look like Kyle is trying to find that happy medium.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years. But how does it compare to other regimes around the NFL? If we don't have numbers to actually compare than it is nothing more than an assumption that we go through them at a higher rate.

The theory wasn't in comparison to other teams. It was noting this system here. There's no secret this system here eats through OL, TE's and RB's.

Even QB's. But that's another topic. Haha.

We have had the same #1 TE since the beginning of the Kyle Shanahan era. Are you really arguing about numbers 2's who don't see a lot of playing time?

As far as RB's, I would argue that no other system in the NFL has proven to get as much production from UDRFA RB's than Kyle. Who cares if they only last 1-2 seasons? They are cheap and seem to be a dime a dozen for this system.

When it comes to OL, it would be disingenuous to diminish the importance of comparing the rate of turnover with this team/system and other teams/systems.

No, I'm theorizing the volume of players used to execute and get through a season at those 3 positions over the past 6 years is incredibly large. That speaks to volume and complexity within the system. What, how and how much can = more risk of injury. You obviously see that now with OL but you can't with RB and TE and by default "the offensive system?" Or philosophy within it?

Incredibly large compared to what? What have I obviously seen now with the OL? I see players get hurt every Sunday. No team is immune. You know damn well I can be persuaded to take another stance. If you have actual numbers to compare than I would be inclined to side with you if your argument was proven by statistical analysis.

Your own quote.

Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years.

Compared to what though? Its relevant to know whether its excessive or in line with the rest of the league. I could say $1000.00 is a lot of money but compared to someone who makes 200k+ a year, it might just be a normal weekend with the boys.

If you feel the need to compare our system and injuries to others, you're welcomed too. The Rams run a pass centric version of Kyle's offense and they are annually the #1 healthiest team in the league. My theory was never comparing us to others.

Like injuries, it's recognizing what happens here annually in this system and protecting yourself for the inevitable. Kyle is getting it. It doesn't sound like our fans are there quite yet?

You can also look across the league to see who carries 10 OL (only need to carry 8 active on game days and that includes call ups from the PS), 4-6 RB's + FB and 3-4 TE's in volume combination.

Kyle chooses the 53 and he's telling you how he's going to play it and how much he needs to make it through the year doing it.

Pass centric started last year with stafford. Let's use 2020 as a point of reference when the niners were decimated
Niners-537 passing attempts and 430 rushing attempts
Rams-548 passing attempts and 388 rushing attempts

Sure. They were #1 in health and we were 29th.

For whatever reason, volume+complexity+reliance (my theory) = eating through those positions Kyle leans on heavily in his system.

So why do you think they consistently have less injuries to those positions than us despite running the same system?

It's an interesting hypothesis, that complexity can be the factor in having more OL injuries. I don't think comparing the amount of injuries with other teams' OLs is the way to test it. There are too many variables with the main variable being the players - some guys simply get injured easier. We need a medical expert to tell us if different blocking movements contribute to a higher chance of injury. Do the different movements asked of Kyle's OL put additional stress on their bodies? Outside/inside zone, pulling, combo block get to second level, block on edges, pass block, pull, all require different movements.

What types of injuries are the 49er OLmen suffering from, and did the play on which they were injured (scheme) a factor? For example, if an OLman is hurt running outside the tackle box, that can be considered a scheme factor since Kyle asks his OL to do this often (probably towards top of the league, just a guess). Look more at the team itself, not around the league tallying up OL injuries. imo.

If you actually try to figure that out it will take the narrative away.

right now it's a quantity over quality issue. Hopefully we got some quality guys now, time will tell

I'm really curious if asking the body to do all the different movements puts added stress on ligaments/muscles compared to less variety of movements, same number of reps. If an OL executed 100 drive blocking reps, and then the same OLman did 25oz, 25iz, 25pass block, 25run then block downfield - which put more stress on the body? Just an example to explain what I meant.

You need to find the injury, then diagnose. OL get rolled up on a lot but that not system or scheme.

Yeah, just look at the volume and then work backwards. I'm sure their own S&C team has done that to look for trends in the scheme.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years. But how does it compare to other regimes around the NFL? If we don't have numbers to actually compare than it is nothing more than an assumption that we go through them at a higher rate.

The theory wasn't in comparison to other teams. It was noting this system here. There's no secret this system here eats through OL, TE's and RB's.

Even QB's. But that's another topic. Haha.

We have had the same #1 TE since the beginning of the Kyle Shanahan era. Are you really arguing about numbers 2's who don't see a lot of playing time?

As far as RB's, I would argue that no other system in the NFL has proven to get as much production from UDRFA RB's than Kyle. Who cares if they only last 1-2 seasons? They are cheap and seem to be a dime a dozen for this system.

When it comes to OL, it would be disingenuous to diminish the importance of comparing the rate of turnover with this team/system and other teams/systems.

No, I'm theorizing the volume of players used to execute and get through a season at those 3 positions over the past 6 years is incredibly large. That speaks to volume and complexity within the system. What, how and how much can = more risk of injury. You obviously see that now with OL but you can't with RB and TE and by default "the offensive system?" Or philosophy within it?

Incredibly large compared to what? What have I obviously seen now with the OL? I see players get hurt every Sunday. No team is immune. You know damn well I can be persuaded to take another stance. If you have actual numbers to compare than I would be inclined to side with you if your argument was proven by statistical analysis.

Your own quote.

Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years.

Compared to what though? Its relevant to know whether its excessive or in line with the rest of the league. I could say $1000.00 is a lot of money but compared to someone who makes 200k+ a year, it might just be a normal weekend with the boys.

If you feel the need to compare our system and injuries to others, you're welcomed too. The Rams run a pass centric version of Kyle's offense and they are annually the #1 healthiest team in the league. My theory was never comparing us to others.

Like injuries, it's recognizing what happens here annually in this system and protecting yourself for the inevitable. Kyle is getting it. It doesn't sound like our fans are there quite yet?

You can also look across the league to see who carries 10 OL (only need to carry 8 active on game days and that includes call ups from the PS), 4-6 RB's + FB and 3-4 TE's in volume combination.

Kyle chooses the 53 and he's telling you how he's going to play it and how much he needs to make it through the year doing it.

Pass centric started last year with stafford. Let's use 2020 as a point of reference when the niners were decimated
Niners-537 passing attempts and 430 rushing attempts
Rams-548 passing attempts and 388 rushing attempts

Sure. They were #1 in health and we were 29th.

For whatever reason, volume+complexity+reliance (my theory) = eating through those positions Kyle leans on heavily in his system.

So why do you think they consistently have less injuries to those positions than us despite running the same system?

It's an interesting hypothesis, that complexity can be the factor in having more OL injuries. I don't think comparing the amount of injuries with other teams' OLs is the way to test it. There are too many variables with the main variable being the players - some guys simply get injured easier. We need a medical expert to tell us if different blocking movements contribute to a higher chance of injury. Do the different movements asked of Kyle's OL put additional stress on their bodies? Outside/inside zone, pulling, combo block get to second level, block on edges, pass block, pull, all require different movements.

What types of injuries are the 49er OLmen suffering from, and did the play on which they were injured (scheme) a factor? For example, if an OLman is hurt running outside the tackle box, that can be considered a scheme factor since Kyle asks his OL to do this often (probably towards top of the league, just a guess). Look more at the team itself, not around the league tallying up OL injuries. imo.

If you actually try to figure that out it will take the narrative away.

right now it's a quantity over quality issue. Hopefully we got some quality guys now, time will tell

I'm really curious if asking the body to do all the different movements puts added stress on ligaments/muscles compared to less variety of movements, same number of reps. If an OL executed 100 drive blocking reps, and then the same OLman did 25oz, 25iz, 25pass block, 25run then block downfield - which put more stress on the body? Just an example to explain what I meant.

You need to find the injury, then diagnose. OL get rolled up on a lot but that not system or scheme.

Yeah, just look at the volume and then work backwards. I'm sure their own S&C team has done that to look for trends in the scheme.

Volume of what? The 49ers OL is most likely playing the same number of snaps as other teams, 60-70ish?

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years. But how does it compare to other regimes around the NFL? If we don't have numbers to actually compare than it is nothing more than an assumption that we go through them at a higher rate.

The theory wasn't in comparison to other teams. It was noting this system here. There's no secret this system here eats through OL, TE's and RB's.

Even QB's. But that's another topic. Haha.

We have had the same #1 TE since the beginning of the Kyle Shanahan era. Are you really arguing about numbers 2's who don't see a lot of playing time?

As far as RB's, I would argue that no other system in the NFL has proven to get as much production from UDRFA RB's than Kyle. Who cares if they only last 1-2 seasons? They are cheap and seem to be a dime a dozen for this system.

When it comes to OL, it would be disingenuous to diminish the importance of comparing the rate of turnover with this team/system and other teams/systems.

No, I'm theorizing the volume of players used to execute and get through a season at those 3 positions over the past 6 years is incredibly large. That speaks to volume and complexity within the system. What, how and how much can = more risk of injury. You obviously see that now with OL but you can't with RB and TE and by default "the offensive system?" Or philosophy within it?

Incredibly large compared to what? What have I obviously seen now with the OL? I see players get hurt every Sunday. No team is immune. You know damn well I can be persuaded to take another stance. If you have actual numbers to compare than I would be inclined to side with you if your argument was proven by statistical analysis.

Your own quote.

Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years.

Compared to what though? Its relevant to know whether its excessive or in line with the rest of the league. I could say $1000.00 is a lot of money but compared to someone who makes 200k+ a year, it might just be a normal weekend with the boys.

If you feel the need to compare our system and injuries to others, you're welcomed too. The Rams run a pass centric version of Kyle's offense and they are annually the #1 healthiest team in the league. My theory was never comparing us to others.

Like injuries, it's recognizing what happens here annually in this system and protecting yourself for the inevitable. Kyle is getting it. It doesn't sound like our fans are there quite yet?

You can also look across the league to see who carries 10 OL (only need to carry 8 active on game days and that includes call ups from the PS), 4-6 RB's + FB and 3-4 TE's in volume combination.

Kyle chooses the 53 and he's telling you how he's going to play it and how much he needs to make it through the year doing it.

Pass centric started last year with stafford. Let's use 2020 as a point of reference when the niners were decimated
Niners-537 passing attempts and 430 rushing attempts
Rams-548 passing attempts and 388 rushing attempts

Sure. They were #1 in health and we were 29th.

For whatever reason, volume+complexity+reliance (my theory) = eating through those positions Kyle leans on heavily in his system.

So why do you think they consistently have less injuries to those positions than us despite running the same system?

It's an interesting hypothesis, that complexity can be the factor in having more OL injuries. I don't think comparing the amount of injuries with other teams' OLs is the way to test it. There are too many variables with the main variable being the players - some guys simply get injured easier. We need a medical expert to tell us if different blocking movements contribute to a higher chance of injury. Do the different movements asked of Kyle's OL put additional stress on their bodies? Outside/inside zone, pulling, combo block get to second level, block on edges, pass block, pull, all require different movements.

What types of injuries are the 49er OLmen suffering from, and did the play on which they were injured (scheme) a factor? For example, if an OLman is hurt running outside the tackle box, that can be considered a scheme factor since Kyle asks his OL to do this often (probably towards top of the league, just a guess). Look more at the team itself, not around the league tallying up OL injuries. imo.

If you actually try to figure that out it will take the narrative away.

right now it's a quantity over quality issue. Hopefully we got some quality guys now, time will tell

I'm really curious if asking the body to do all the different movements puts added stress on ligaments/muscles compared to less variety of movements, same number of reps. If an OL executed 100 drive blocking reps, and then the same OLman did 25oz, 25iz, 25pass block, 25run then block downfield - which put more stress on the body? Just an example to explain what I meant.

You need to find the injury, then diagnose. OL get rolled up on a lot but that not system or scheme.

Yeah, just look at the volume and then work backwards. I'm sure their own S&C team has done that to look for trends in the scheme.

Volume of what? The 49ers OL is most likely playing the same number of snaps as other teams, 60-70ish?

The total volume of OL injuries over the past 5 years.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years. But how does it compare to other regimes around the NFL? If we don't have numbers to actually compare than it is nothing more than an assumption that we go through them at a higher rate.

The theory wasn't in comparison to other teams. It was noting this system here. There's no secret this system here eats through OL, TE's and RB's.

Even QB's. But that's another topic. Haha.

We have had the same #1 TE since the beginning of the Kyle Shanahan era. Are you really arguing about numbers 2's who don't see a lot of playing time?

As far as RB's, I would argue that no other system in the NFL has proven to get as much production from UDRFA RB's than Kyle. Who cares if they only last 1-2 seasons? They are cheap and seem to be a dime a dozen for this system.

When it comes to OL, it would be disingenuous to diminish the importance of comparing the rate of turnover with this team/system and other teams/systems.

No, I'm theorizing the volume of players used to execute and get through a season at those 3 positions over the past 6 years is incredibly large. That speaks to volume and complexity within the system. What, how and how much can = more risk of injury. You obviously see that now with OL but you can't with RB and TE and by default "the offensive system?" Or philosophy within it?

Incredibly large compared to what? What have I obviously seen now with the OL? I see players get hurt every Sunday. No team is immune. You know damn well I can be persuaded to take another stance. If you have actual numbers to compare than I would be inclined to side with you if your argument was proven by statistical analysis.

Your own quote.

Its obvious we have gone through a lot of O lineman in the past 6 years.

Compared to what though? Its relevant to know whether its excessive or in line with the rest of the league. I could say $1000.00 is a lot of money but compared to someone who makes 200k+ a year, it might just be a normal weekend with the boys.

If you feel the need to compare our system and injuries to others, you're welcomed too. The Rams run a pass centric version of Kyle's offense and they are annually the #1 healthiest team in the league. My theory was never comparing us to others.

Like injuries, it's recognizing what happens here annually in this system and protecting yourself for the inevitable. Kyle is getting it. It doesn't sound like our fans are there quite yet?

You can also look across the league to see who carries 10 OL (only need to carry 8 active on game days and that includes call ups from the PS), 4-6 RB's + FB and 3-4 TE's in volume combination.

Kyle chooses the 53 and he's telling you how he's going to play it and how much he needs to make it through the year doing it.

Pass centric started last year with stafford. Let's use 2020 as a point of reference when the niners were decimated
Niners-537 passing attempts and 430 rushing attempts
Rams-548 passing attempts and 388 rushing attempts

Sure. They were #1 in health and we were 29th.

For whatever reason, volume+complexity+reliance (my theory) = eating through those positions Kyle leans on heavily in his system.

So why do you think they consistently have less injuries to those positions than us despite running the same system?

It's an interesting hypothesis, that complexity can be the factor in having more OL injuries. I don't think comparing the amount of injuries with other teams' OLs is the way to test it. There are too many variables with the main variable being the players - some guys simply get injured easier. We need a medical expert to tell us if different blocking movements contribute to a higher chance of injury. Do the different movements asked of Kyle's OL put additional stress on their bodies? Outside/inside zone, pulling, combo block get to second level, block on edges, pass block, pull, all require different movements.

What types of injuries are the 49er OLmen suffering from, and did the play on which they were injured (scheme) a factor? For example, if an OLman is hurt running outside the tackle box, that can be considered a scheme factor since Kyle asks his OL to do this often (probably towards top of the league, just a guess). Look more at the team itself, not around the league tallying up OL injuries. imo.

If you actually try to figure that out it will take the narrative away.

right now it's a quantity over quality issue. Hopefully we got some quality guys now, time will tell

I'm really curious if asking the body to do all the different movements puts added stress on ligaments/muscles compared to less variety of movements, same number of reps. If an OL executed 100 drive blocking reps, and then the same OLman did 25oz, 25iz, 25pass block, 25run then block downfield - which put more stress on the body? Just an example to explain what I meant.

You need to find the injury, then diagnose. OL get rolled up on a lot but that not system or scheme.

Yeah, just look at the volume and then work backwards. I'm sure their own S&C team has done that to look for trends in the scheme.

Volume of what? The 49ers OL is most likely playing the same number of snaps as other teams, 60-70ish?

The total volume of OL injuries over the past 5 years.

Ohhh oops. Thought you meant volume of snaps and how it wears down a player.

Originally posted by NCommand:
The total volume of OL injuries over the past 5 years.

@NCommand, I do see you push the O-line investment every year and the injury bug conversation. I assume we agree the Niners are doing everything they can think of to limit injuries, but the evidence is the evidence.

Is it lack of insight/skill with staff?
Is it a penchant for injury-prone players?
Is it relates to more than average travel (due to geography)
other?

Originally posted by NinerBuff:

Originally posted by NCommand:
The total volume of OL injuries over the past 5 years.

@NCommand, I do see you push the O-line investment every year and the injury bug conversation. I assume we agree the Niners are doing everything they can think of to limit injuries, but the evidence is the evidence.

Is it lack of insight/skill with staff?
Is it a penchant for injury-prone players?
Is it relates to more than average travel (due to geography)
other?

Do injury free OLmen come to SF and get injured more often? That's something to consider. There are so many variables that I think we'd need 10-15 years of data to find any association between scheme and injuries.