49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Bingo. They also run more pass centric versions. QB centric versions. Kyle here: "Trey won't make or break the season." Same scheme...very different philosophy within it.

Bingo what?

Like thl said, just because it's the same scheme, the other coaches don't run it the same way. Different philosophy within it. Probably different team building targets and strategies. Own spin on strength and conditioning. Different numbers at different position groups.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Not really. Whole team related to all other teams; FO/R&D player preferences (win the GTD $ and fliers and reliance on oft injured players), scheme preferences (e.g. smaller OL), Hockey S&C (soft tissue injuries), ultra light practices, standing around followed by a bunch of all-eyes-on-me 1on1's, etc.

I think the larger volume on the stated positions on offense are related to the volume of run blocking, reliance and complexity in order to execute that scheme and philosophy (run centric / low volume in PP so not as refined or talented there).

On defense, all gas, no brakes...all breaks (e.g. poor technique, lighter speed players, etc). Haha.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Like thl said, just because it's the same scheme, the other coaches don't run it the same way. Different philosophy within it. Probably different team building targets and strategies. Own spin on strength and conditioning. Different numbers at different position groups.

Not at all a different philosophy. Certainly a different person gameplanning and calling the plays, however.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
So what is it then? Here's your chance. You've said it was scheme. Then you said it was soft practices. Then you said it was poor player maintenance. Then you said it was the medical staff. So which is it?

Which topic? Full team injuries here? To position groups, specifically, here?

Lol you have different theories for different position groups?

Not really. Whole team related to all other teams; FO/R&D player preferences (win the GTD $ and fliers and reliance on oft injured players), scheme preferences (e.g. smaller OL), Hockey S&C (soft tissue injuries), ultra light practices, standing around followed by a bunch of all-eyes-on-me 1on1's, etc.

I think the larger volume on the stated positions on offense are related to the volume of run blocking, reliance and complexity in order to execute that scheme and philosophy (run centric / low volume in PP so not as refined or talented there).

On defense, all gas, no brakes...all breaks (e.g. poor technique, lighter speed players, etc). Haha.

I think lighter practices are done less by choice and more as a response to restrictions imposed by the CBA. The players union, negotiated a deal that drastically cut the amount of time that teams can spend with players during the offseason, and even how frequently they can practice during the week during training camp.

If this team doesn't go to the post season this year this unit will be the reason why. It's Trent and a bunch of scrubs.

Originally posted by ninersrule4:
If this team doesn't go to the post season this year this unit will be the reason why. It's Trent and a bunch of scrubs.

Damn! That seems kind of shortsighted. You writing Banks and Burford off already?

My take is the oline will struggle early, but with more reps and more playing time together to gel it will improve each week.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by ninersrule4:
If this team doesn't go to the post season this year this unit will be the reason why. It's Trent and a bunch of scrubs.

Damn! That seems kind of shortsighted. You writing Banks and Burford off already?

I don't have any faith in them. Especially what ever guy lines up at C. RT is a mess even when MM is in he is terrible in pass protection. The pre season was ugly. Just imagine how ugly it will be when the real games start.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Bingo. They also run more pass centric versions. QB centric versions. Kyle here: "Trey won't make or break the season." Same scheme...very different philosophy within it.

Bingo what?

Like thl said, just because it's the same scheme, the other coaches don't run it the same way. Different philosophy within it. Probably different team building targets and strategies. Own spin on strength and conditioning. Different numbers at different position groups.

My 2 Cents. Bigger bones and ligaments can withstand bigger stress loads, all other things being equal. Smaller backs and OLinemen and DLinemen - less stress loads (all other things being equal). Hence *Generally speaking* - smaller people get injured more than big people. Kyle is moving away from smaller backs towards bigger backs like TDP and Mason who are 220+. Kocureck seems to like gap penetrator DLinemen (Kerry Hyder, for example) he's 275 when most DT's (if he's playing DT) are in the 290+ range. Smaller DLinemen - smaller ligaments and bones to withstand stress. Our offensive and defensive linemen, typically are smaller than most - IMO - in the past historically. That is why we load up on on OLinemen and DLinemen, because they are smaller and get more injured.

An RB size example: Mostert and Brieda were around sub 200, Frank Gore was 215+ and Frank worked out like hell in the offseason so his ligaments, muscles, and bones were probably bigger than any typical NFL RB - if you could compare them IMO. Stylistically - Kyle likes athletic linemen and generally they are smaller. I.e. Staley was a former TE who bulked up, vs a guy like Trent Brown (who doesn't fit Kyle's style of OLinemen) is naturally big and strong without having to bulk up. Same with McGlinchey, he has to bulk up to get to his 300+ weight.

Looks like Kyle is modifying his particular brand of offense to fit bigger players - who are still athletic. (Banks, Burford, Zakelj, Poe). Athletic enough to do what he wants to do in his offense, but much bigger naturally vs having to upsize a smaller but athletic person to be a bigger athletic person. (McGlinchey and Staley). His outside zone will still be a core philosophy, but I think he'll try to do it with bigger players. He'll mix in enough inside zone and power to keep defenses honest since those plays will also fit better with his much larger OLine players now.

Originally posted by ninersrule4:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by ninersrule4:
If this team doesn't go to the post season this year this unit will be the reason why. It's Trent and a bunch of scrubs.

Damn! That seems kind of shortsighted. You writing Banks and Burford off already?

I don't have any faith in them. Especially what ever guy lines up at C. RT is a mess even when MM is in he is terrible in pass protection. The pre season was ugly. Just imagine how ugly it will be when the real games start.

Honestly, I didn't see anything from Brendel that concerns me. Do you have a clip of a rep during pre season that has you concerned about the center position?

As far as Banks and Burford. They made some rookie mistakes for sure in the pre season. But they also had some reps that stood out on tape. There is a lot to be excited about for both of them at the guard positions. It may take some time but the potential is certainly high.

What most folks saw in the pre season that should worry them are the back up tackles. Trent Williams didn't play in any of the pre season games. None of the back up tackles looked good at all. We know Trent Williams will anchor that LT spot come week 1. The real concern at this point is the RT position because things don't look good for Mike McGlinchey. In spite of what folks say about MM, he was putting together a decent season in PP last year before the injury. He is our 2nd best O lineman and chances are he won't be ready to go by week 1.

Originally posted by Giedi:
My 2 Cents. Bigger bones and ligaments can withstand bigger stress loads, all other things being equal. Smaller backs and OLinemen and DLinemen - less stress loads (all other things being equal). Hence *Generally speaking* - smaller people get injured more than big people. Kyle is moving away from smaller backs towards bigger backs like TDP and Mason who are 220+. Kocureck seems to like gap penetrator DLinemen (Kerry Hyder, for example) he's 275 when most DT's (if he's playing DT) are in the 290+ range. Smaller DLinemen - smaller ligaments and bones to withstand stress. Our offensive and defensive linemen, typically are smaller than most - IMO - in the past historically. That is why we load up on on OLinemen and DLinemen, because they are smaller and get more injured.

Hmmm,...seems like you considered the bigger bones and ligaments and seem to have forgotten the extra bulk around them that increases exponentially.

I mean,... before we make our own "independent" theories,...you know that 95% of this stuff that we wackily guess about on here has already been independently studied, right? We can simply Google it:


https://metrifit.com/blog/overweight-athletes-at-greater-risk-for-injuries/

And another...



https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17515011/

And then even more direct information once we put these athletes into football and break these guys into position groups:

This preliminary analysis found that heavier players have higher injury rates after controlling for position. Because of the residual confounding by role present at least among running backs, a good next step would be to further control for usage and see if the association of higher weight with higher injury rates remains. If it does, what should teams do with this information? Fielding a team of 195-pound offensive linemen is probably unwise, but focusing on players at the lower end of the weight range for their positions may offer teams some modest advantages when it comes to injury prevention. All else equal, if a team has a choice between a 180-pound defensive back and a 210-pounder, they may want to go for the lighter guy.
https://www.hogshaven.com/2019/6/22/18658887/understanding-injuries-in-the-nfl-part-3

It's pretty conclusively the opposite of what you think. The only down-sloping we see involves usage. e.g.,...that 290 lb TE isin't really running out there catching passes,...he's blocking as another lineman, if not on the bench for special usage situations. Other than that, TE injuries clearly increase with size just like all the other position groups.

If you are really interested, learn about terms like bone mass density (BMD) and trabecular bone score (TBS) and see what research they have regarding them, but clearly, bigger is not really better if your only concern is injury rates.

I would put this in the "Injury Analysis" thread but we all know that legit, independent analysis really holds zero interest in there. It's really just a "praying for the next injury to prove that I was right all along" thread.

Originally posted by random49er:
Hmmm,...seems like you considered the bigger bones and ligaments and seem to have forgotten the extra bulk around them that increases exponentially.

I mean,... before we make our own "independent" theories,...you know that 95% of this stuff that we wackily guess about on here has already been independently studied, right? We can simply Google it:


https://metrifit.com/blog/overweight-athletes-at-greater-risk-for-injuries/

And another...



https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17515011/

And then even more direct information once we put these athletes into football and break these guys into position groups:

This preliminary analysis found that heavier players have higher injury rates after controlling for position. Because of the residual confounding by role present at least among running backs, a good next step would be to further control for usage and see if the association of higher weight with higher injury rates remains. If it does, what should teams do with this information? Fielding a team of 195-pound offensive linemen is probably unwise, but focusing on players at the lower end of the weight range for their positions may offer teams some modest advantages when it comes to injury prevention. All else equal, if a team has a choice between a 180-pound defensive back and a 210-pounder, they may want to go for the lighter guy.
https://www.hogshaven.com/2019/6/22/18658887/understanding-injuries-in-the-nfl-part-3

It's pretty conclusively the opposite of what you think. The only down-sloping we see involves usage. e.g.,...that 290 lb TE isin't really running out there catching passes,...he's blocking as another lineman, if not on the bench for special usage situations. Other than that, TE injuries clearly increase with size just like all the other position groups.

If you are really interested, learn about terms like bone mass density (BMD) and trabecular bone score (TBS) and see what research they have regarding them, but clearly, bigger is not really better if your only concern is injury rates.

I would put this in the "Injury Analysis" thread but we all know that legit, independent analysis really holds zero interest in there. It's really just a "praying for the next injury to prove that I was right all along" thread.

What ya know. Actual data from actual studies.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
What ya know. Actual data from actual studies.

To avoid mismatches, and for obvious safety reasons, amateur wrestlers only face competitors of comparable sizes. As a result, wrestling organizations set strict weight-measurement rules to ensure heavier wrestlers don't sneak through to face lighter opponents. At the high school level, each state sets its own standards, but state associations typically follow the rules established by the National Federation of State High School Associations, or NFHS.
https://www.sportsrec.com/8294013/high-school-wrestling-weight-class-rules

There are weight classes for Boxing and MMA ect... there is a *good reason* for them.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
What ya know. Actual data from actual studies.

To avoid mismatches, and for obvious safety reasons, amateur wrestlers only face competitors of comparable sizes. As a result, wrestling organizations set strict weight-measurement rules to ensure heavier wrestlers don't sneak through to face lighter opponents. At the high school level, each state sets its own standards, but state associations typically follow the rules established by the National Federation of State High School Associations, or NFHS.
https://www.sportsrec.com/8294013/high-school-wrestling-weight-class-rules

There are weight classes for Boxing and MMA ect... there is a *good reason* for them.

There certainly is a good reason for weight classes. I sincerely hope you don't think injuries is the main reason beyond fair competition, however.

There are obvious benefits to bigger, stronger linemen on both sides of the ball but rest assured it's not for less injuries...lol.

Why don't we take the extra money from Jimmy's restructure and see if we can get Mac back for a few extra meal. I'm not getting the sense anyone's coming to the rescue