49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by DRCHOWDER:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
The throw to toney on the last drive would have been analyzed to hell if it were Jimmy.

It was behind toney by 5 degrees and the point of the ball was trending to the left.

i think we all would give jimmy a pass if he had won two ships

technically Jimmy has won two ships.

Jimmy is a good QB, but he just can'd do much when the OLine protection breaks down. Nice thing about Purdy is that he's as accurate and has a quick release like Jimmy AND he can do some things Pat Mahomes can do when the OLine protection breaks down. Jimmy just doesn't have that agile pocket sidestep mobility that Purdy has when there's a Chris Jones comming up the middle. Purdy just has another gear, so to speak, whereas Jimmy's stuck in 2nd gear - from a mobility standpoint.

P.S. I think Purdy would have made the throw to Sanders with his accuracy for a win in that 🏆game.

The issue jimmy has is he plans and plants his wide stance because he already made up his mind where he's going with ball. When that doesn't work the play is dead (no where to run due to wide stance) or he's forcing it.

even when you have the best line, it's not full proof and in big games one snap can change the outcome

I think Jimmy made up his mind because he was slow in absorbing Kyle's offense. Matt Ryan also had some of the same issues with Kyle and his offense, as being a bit robotic. In the Raider interview, I remember Jimmy saying that McDaniel's offense is more spontaneous and that Jimmy has more power to modify the calls under McDaniel's offense. I think one reason Jimmy wasn't allowed the freedom to ad lib was because I think he didn't understand how Kyle sets up his offense the way Brock does. I think Brock intuitively understands Kyle somehow, and how he thinks and so he's done well in Kyle's offense while it took Jimmy until last year to really be efficient in Kyle's offense.

i don't think jimmy ever cared to learn the offense or cares at all. he barely could run our offense when there was less responsibility, but somehow he's going to thrive when given more ? lol

why would he care as a two-time SUPER BOWL CHAMP ?

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I'm trying to understand what PM can and can not transcend.

He can't transcend the Lions defense
He can't transcend a non-tier 1 OL
He can't transcend a WR dropping a pass
He cant transcend a pick-6
He can't transcend 1 point

Man, I'm starting to think the only thing PM can transcend is turning 49er fans into closet Chiefs fans.

Some of us like great qb play. We can tell what it is even when OL play isn't great

Others would rather have average play and continually blame the OL for the average play.

You can have Mahomes-envy all you like. Every fan wants a HOF QB.

And you can still appreciate great QB while still recognizing he can't transcend everything. Clearly.

And you can still want a tier 1 OL so that that QB HERE has the best chance to play at that level for his career.

I've never seen so many fans NOT want that in here.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I'm trying to understand what PM can and can not transcend.

He can't transcend the Lions defense
He can't transcend a non-tier 1 OL
He can't transcend a WR dropping a pass
He cant transcend a pick-6
He can't transcend 1 point

Man, I'm starting to think the only thing PM can transcend is turning 49er fans into closet Chiefs fans.

Some of us like great qb play. We can tell what it is even when OL play isn't great

Others would rather have average play and continually blame the OL for the average play.

You can have Mahomes-envy all you like. Every fan wants a HOF QB.

And you can still appreciate great QB while still recognizing he can't transcend everything. Clearly.

And you can still want a tier 1 OL so that that QB HERE has the best chance to play at that level for his career.

I've never seen so many fans NOT want that in here.

Dude just take a break from posting for a while. What a stupid comment. You really just don't get it.

Originally posted by GoreGoreGore:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I'm trying to understand what PM can and can not transcend.

He can't transcend the Lions defense
He can't transcend a non-tier 1 OL
He can't transcend a WR dropping a pass
He cant transcend a pick-6
He can't transcend 1 point

Man, I'm starting to think the only thing PM can transcend is turning 49er fans into closet Chiefs fans.

Some of us like great qb play. We can tell what it is even when OL play isn't great

Others would rather have average play and continually blame the OL for the average play.

You can have Mahomes-envy all you like. Every fan wants a HOF QB.

And you can still appreciate great QB while still recognizing he can't transcend everything. Clearly.

And you can still want a tier 1 OL so that that QB HERE has the best chance to play at that level for his career.

I've never seen so many fans NOT want that in here.

Dude just take a break from posting for a while. What a stupid comment. You really just don't get it.

Clueless, but I love all the scrambling, backpedaling, non-committing nonsense he comes up with. How much further can he take this lol

Originally posted by Dshearn:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by DRCHOWDER:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
The throw to toney on the last drive would have been analyzed to hell if it were Jimmy.

It was behind toney by 5 degrees and the point of the ball was trending to the left.

i think we all would give jimmy a pass if he had won two ships

technically Jimmy has won two ships.

Jimmy is a good QB, but he just can'd do much when the OLine protection breaks down. Nice thing about Purdy is that he's as accurate and has a quick release like Jimmy AND he can do some things Pat Mahomes can do when the OLine protection breaks down. Jimmy just doesn't have that agile pocket sidestep mobility that Purdy has when there's a Chris Jones comming up the middle. Purdy just has another gear, so to speak, whereas Jimmy's stuck in 2nd gear - from a mobility standpoint.

P.S. I think Purdy would have made the throw to Sanders with his accuracy for a win in that 🏆game.

The issue jimmy has is he plans and plants his wide stance because he already made up his mind where he's going with ball. When that doesn't work the play is dead (no where to run due to wide stance) or he's forcing it.

even when you have the best line, it's not full proof and in big games one snap can change the outcome

I think Jimmy made up his mind because he was slow in absorbing Kyle's offense. Matt Ryan also had some of the same issues with Kyle and his offense, as being a bit robotic. In the Raider interview, I remember Jimmy saying that McDaniel's offense is more spontaneous and that Jimmy has more power to modify the calls under McDaniel's offense. I think one reason Jimmy wasn't allowed the freedom to ad lib was because I think he didn't understand how Kyle sets up his offense the way Brock does. I think Brock intuitively understands Kyle somehow, and how he thinks and so he's done well in Kyle's offense while it took Jimmy until last year to really be efficient in Kyle's offense.

You ain't wrong

This debate has gone on since Bill Walsh....

Timing offense vs read and react.

Before injury Jimmy G had an absolutely ELITE reaction/release. He was beating dudes just on his ability to get the ball out. It was a bit like how i remember Dan Marino just without the fastball.

Walsh wanted people at a certain point on the field at a certain time. As much for RAC blocking as it is to manipulate the defense. So the pass has been pre-determined based on as much as the QB sees as what the system dictates.

You don't win a play by throwing for a first down, but by throwing a first down at this spot at this time.

I have thought Shanny 2.0 wanted a yes man like Joe Montana, but I might really REALLLY be wrong and tying Shanny to the ghost of Bill Walsh way to much.

That is what makes Brock so interesting, Brock is either so embedded in that offense he is at a zen level, or Brock gambles a crap ton and is really lucky.

I love Brock, but I think the dude has some gunslinger in him and has been hella lucky so far.

Bill Walsh would have lost his s**t with as much improv as we have seen from Brock. Those late season Kittle plays were he invented his own routs and some how Brock found him for big chunks....dude Walsh would have been beside himself.

Shanny seemed ecstatic over the plays, and Deebo says players have a ton of input on the offensive gameplan, and Kyle is a lead by commit type... so i guess he can be a tad looser of how his plays are ran. Then we get a quote from Jimmy G that kinda puts that in a shoebox. So i really don't know.

Agree that Brock definitely has a bit of Bret Farve in him, with his gunslinging. Kyle just doesn't like plays where Purdy runs around and gets negative yardage because he's trying to do too much, when the checkdown is there for the taking. (as an example) I think the difference between a guy like Andy Reid's offense and Kyle's offense is that Kyle's offense so run heavy. The outside zone run sets up his bread and butter play - the naked boot to the TE. That play kind of illustrates the structure that the QB has to play with. QB doesn't read the defense in a play action pass the way he reads the defense in a shot gun formation, for example. In Shotgun, Jimmy wants to read the defense and throw to the open guy from the git go, and use his quick release to do it. But Kyle would rather set up the defense for an explosive play - and you can only do that with constant lefty jabs, until the defense anticipates the Jab, and out comes the roundhouse right hook for a TKO. I think it's some of those throw away *jab* plays that Kyle uses can frustrate a QB somewhat at times. Andy Reid's offense is much closer to Bill Walsh's offense than Kyle's offense is.

The thing with Jimmy is that he's so immobile that the OLine really has to work to give him a clean pocket because DLinemen *know* he's not going to escape the pocket for a 30 yard scamper like Mahomes or Hurts. Purdy has good mobility and so pass protection is a bit easier for the OLine because the defense can't let Purdy out of the pocket and extend plays.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I'm trying to understand what PM can and can not transcend.

He can't transcend the Lions defense
He can't transcend a non-tier 1 OL
He can't transcend a WR dropping a pass
He cant transcend a pick-6
He can't transcend 1 point

Man, I'm starting to think the only thing PM can transcend is turning 49er fans into closet Chiefs fans.

Some of us like great qb play. We can tell what it is even when OL play isn't great

Others would rather have average play and continually blame the OL for the average play.

You can have Mahomes-envy all you like. Every fan wants a HOF QB.

And you can still appreciate great QB while still recognizing he can't transcend everything. Clearly.

And you can still want a tier 1 OL so that that QB HERE has the best chance to play at that level for his career.

I've never seen so many fans NOT want that in here.

I'm wth ya brother.. if Purdy gets hurt or any QB gets hurt, everyone wants a better line, then its too late. If we do make a trade I want o line help. We also may have issues in the secondary as well, Ward will be missed.

Originally posted by bassmanr:
I'm wth ya brother.. if Purdy gets hurt or any QB gets hurt, everyone wants a better line, then its too late. If we do make a trade I want o line help. We also may have issues in the secondary as well, Ward will be missed.

I think 50% to 75% of what we call good line play is QB and System. At least half of it is on the QB and system.

I think the Colt's line went from near last to one of the best mostly on Manning's ability to beat the blitz.

If you remember back to the 49ers of the 90s... Shanny 1.0 came on board and won a SB, but that was one of our poorest stretches of protection in that ERA.

I think at least some of that is creating the passing lane for RBs and WRs working the hash area of the field never left the system, but cut blocks did. I also think some timing offense just hazard the QB more.

Auburn went though the same issues when Al Borges came on board to run his version of the WCO. That was a heavy run version with Cadi Williams, Ronnie Brown and Brandon Jacobs. The passing attack was pure timing, just like Walsh and Shanny some routs are more about getting RAC blockers into the right spots then being targets in the passing tree. Jason Campbell was coached to hold the ball an extra tick if it set up RAC. The whole idea being keep the pressure on the defense, but give your quick passing game a chance to get chunk yardage. Campbell got blamed a lot for holding onto the ball, probably some was him...but no doubt some was Al Borges.

To come full circle with this, I think Purdy wants to hold that ball for deeper chunk plays...so it will be interesting to see how Shanny manages that to protect his QB. It is a legit fear, and might be a legit criticism of Shanny. I say that as a total shanny 2.0 fan. Love that dude....but he has to get his QB to the playoffs in once piece.

Originally posted by GoreGoreGore:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I'm trying to understand what PM can and can not transcend.

He can't transcend the Lions defense
He can't transcend a non-tier 1 OL
He can't transcend a WR dropping a pass
He cant transcend a pick-6
He can't transcend 1 point

Man, I'm starting to think the only thing PM can transcend is turning 49er fans into closet Chiefs fans.

Some of us like great qb play. We can tell what it is even when OL play isn't great

Others would rather have average play and continually blame the OL for the average play.

You can have Mahomes-envy all you like. Every fan wants a HOF QB.

And you can still appreciate great QB while still recognizing he can't transcend everything. Clearly.

And you can still want a tier 1 OL so that that QB HERE has the best chance to play at that level for his career.

I've never seen so many fans NOT want that in here.

Dude just take a break from posting for a while. What a stupid comment. You really just don't get it.

LMAO. The dude who had to change his name to a lost bet and who's still picking fights in the Jimmy Garoppolo thread is trying to police the OL thread. Cute.

I'm sure ShanaLynch would love a tier 1 OL but nobody in their right mind believes they are actually trying to achieve that with the resources they've invested (and not).

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by GoreGoreGore:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I'm trying to understand what PM can and can not transcend.

He can't transcend the Lions defense
He can't transcend a non-tier 1 OL
He can't transcend a WR dropping a pass
He cant transcend a pick-6
He can't transcend 1 point

Man, I'm starting to think the only thing PM can transcend is turning 49er fans into closet Chiefs fans.

Some of us like great qb play. We can tell what it is even when OL play isn't great

Others would rather have average play and continually blame the OL for the average play.

You can have Mahomes-envy all you like. Every fan wants a HOF QB.

And you can still appreciate great QB while still recognizing he can't transcend everything. Clearly.

And you can still want a tier 1 OL so that that QB HERE has the best chance to play at that level for his career.

I've never seen so many fans NOT want that in here.

Dude just take a break from posting for a while. What a stupid comment. You really just don't get it.

LMAO. The dude who had to change his name to a lost bet and who's still picking fights in the Jimmy Garoppolo thread is trying to police the OL thread. Cute.

I'm sure ShanaLynch would love a tier 1 OL but nobody in their right mind believes they are actually trying to achieve that with the resources they've invested (and not).

If you stood for any of your claims here, we wouldn't be able to trace back to your original name

everyone would love to have #1 overall OL, but there is a reality to actually accomplishing that, we definitely wouldn't have nearly the team we have now if we tried

top 5 OL as of now, with a chance to be #1 by years end

Originally posted by bassmanr:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I'm trying to understand what PM can and can not transcend.

He can't transcend the Lions defense
He can't transcend a non-tier 1 OL
He can't transcend a WR dropping a pass
He cant transcend a pick-6
He can't transcend 1 point

Man, I'm starting to think the only thing PM can transcend is turning 49er fans into closet Chiefs fans.

Some of us like great qb play. We can tell what it is even when OL play isn't great

Others would rather have average play and continually blame the OL for the average play.

You can have Mahomes-envy all you like. Every fan wants a HOF QB.

And you can still appreciate great QB while still recognizing he can't transcend everything. Clearly.

And you can still want a tier 1 OL so that that QB HERE has the best chance to play at that level for his career.

I've never seen so many fans NOT want that in here.

I'm wth ya brother.. if Purdy gets hurt or any QB gets hurt, everyone wants a better line, then its too late. If we do make a trade I want o line help. We also may have issues in the secondary as well, Ward will be missed.

Do quality O-line guys get traded mid season though? I can only remember in the offseason and even then, said lineman is due a big extension which is the opposite of what we need right now. We need guys that can outperform their contracts on rookie deals. I hope 3 of our first five picks next year our O-line. We are not only looking for a Trent Williams replacement but also depth and I don't see a longterm future for any of our backup tackles. And we can add IOL help to push Zakelj as well as give us another starting option because when this season is up, Aaron Banks is able to negotiate a new deal, with only 1 year left on his rookie contract.

Originally posted by Dshearn:

Originally posted by bassmanr:
I'm wth ya brother.. if Purdy gets hurt or any QB gets hurt, everyone wants a better line, then its too late. If we do make a trade I want o line help. We also may have issues in the secondary as well, Ward will be missed.

I think 50% to 75% of what we call good line play is QB and System. At least half of it is on the QB and system.

I think the Colt's line went from near last to one of the best mostly on Manning's ability to beat the blitz.

If you remember back to the 49ers of the 90s... Shanny 1.0 came on board and won a SB, but that was one of our poorest stretches of protection in that ERA.

I think at least some of that is creating the passing lane for RBs and WRs working the hash area of the field never left the system, but cut blocks did. I also think some timing offense just hazard the QB more.

Auburn went though the same issues when Al Borges came on board to run his version of the WCO. That was a heavy run version with Cadi Williams, Ronnie Brown and Brandon Jacobs. The passing attack was pure timing, just like Walsh and Shanny some routs are more about getting RAC blockers into the right spots then being targets in the passing tree. Jason Campbell was coached to hold the ball an extra tick if it set up RAC. The whole idea being keep the pressure on the defense, but give your quick passing game a chance to get chunk yardage. Campbell got blamed a lot for holding onto the ball, probably some was him...but no doubt some was Al Borges.

To come full circle with this, I think Purdy wants to hold that ball for deeper chunk plays...so it will be interesting to see how Shanny manages that to protect his QB. It is a legit fear, and might be a legit criticism of Shanny. I say that as a total shanny 2.0 fan. Love that dude....but he has to get his QB to the playoffs in once piece.

Very will said...Yes it does take good QB play and play calling to make the O line function better...The Colts analogy was a good one Manning had the good release and the coach called plays to take advantage of Paytons strengths.

The O line of the nineties was very good I don't know their exact ranking. We did use Shanny ver 1.0 run schemes well wth Floyd doing the Juice roll and Rathman before them. If we use blocking schemes with help on the right side we may be fine. McKivitz did look pretty good in preseason however Pittsburgh will be a major test.

I remember a little bit about Auburn with Jacob's and he did have those shifty protections using personnel to assist.

I like Shannys version of the WCO if he checks his ego thinking it's just scheme. He needs good good Hogs up front. The lines are extremely important but to your point not all that's needed.

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Do quality O-line guys get traded mid season though? I can only remember in the offseason and even then, said lineman is due a big extension which is the opposite of what we need right now. We need guys that can outperform their contracts on rookie deals. I hope 3 of our first five picks next year our O-line. We are not only looking for a Trent Williams replacement but also depth and I don't see a longterm future for any of our backup tackles. And we can add IOL help to push Zakelj as well as give us another starting option because when this season is up, Aaron Banks is able to negotiate a new deal, with only 1 year left on his rookie contract.

You nailed it!

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by bassmanr:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I'm trying to understand what PM can and can not transcend.

He can't transcend the Lions defense
He can't transcend a non-tier 1 OL
He can't transcend a WR dropping a pass
He cant transcend a pick-6
He can't transcend 1 point

Man, I'm starting to think the only thing PM can transcend is turning 49er fans into closet Chiefs fans.

Some of us like great qb play. We can tell what it is even when OL play isn't great

Others would rather have average play and continually blame the OL for the average play.

You can have Mahomes-envy all you like. Every fan wants a HOF QB.

And you can still appreciate great QB while still recognizing he can't transcend everything. Clearly.

And you can still want a tier 1 OL so that that QB HERE has the best chance to play at that level for his career.

I've never seen so many fans NOT want that in here.

I'm wth ya brother.. if Purdy gets hurt or any QB gets hurt, everyone wants a better line, then its too late. If we do make a trade I want o line help. We also may have issues in the secondary as well, Ward will be missed.

Do quality O-line guys get traded mid season though? I can only remember in the offseason and even then, said lineman is due a big extension which is the opposite of what we need right now. We need guys that can outperform their contracts on rookie deals. I hope 3 of our first five picks next year our O-line. We are not only looking for a Trent Williams replacement but also depth and I don't see a longterm future for any of our backup tackles. And we can add IOL help to push Zakelj as well as give us another starting option because when this season is up, Aaron Banks is able to negotiate a new deal, with only 1 year left on his rookie contract.

I would do a trade if we have O line issues. I don't think we need an all pro just good or better than what we have on the right side.

Yes agree we need 3 of our first picks on the oline. I don't see anything with our backups who are going anywhere, basically below average backups.

Originally posted by NCommand:
You can have Mahomes-envy all you like. Every fan wants a HOF QB.

And you can still appreciate great QB while still recognizing he can't transcend everything. Clearly.

And you can still want a tier 1 OL so that that QB HERE has the best chance to play at that level for his career.

I've never seen so many fans NOT want that in here.

I've never seen one fan go to such great lengths to argue an OL is more important than a QB.

To be clear, I'd love a top tier OL but I want a top tier qb MORE. A top tier OL WONT make that happen. Finding the top tier qb is how it happens.

Originally posted by bassmanr:
I would do a trade if we have O line issues. I don't think we need an all pro just good or better than what we have on the right side.

Yes agree we need 3 of our first picks on the oline. I don't see anything with our backups who are going anywhere, basically below average backups.

This is the myopia that bugs me. So spend all the resources on the o line when the secondary is a bigger issue. Makes zero sense.

No team has high round draft picks at every depth spot. You have to build a TEAM.