49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Of course the O line plays a role. The O line is involved in all aspects of the offense. But please tell me which part of our debate was about the O line and not about Kyle's scheme and frequency of use?

Could you post the 49ers playaction rate from 2021, 2022, and this season? I'd like to see the amount in which it has decreased. I think I know why it is decreasing.

Originally posted by NCommand:
This is what I've been saying for YEARS. It's not just unit pass protection issues. It's WHEN this team has to play off script when the lack of talent is exposed (e.g. when it's a predictable passing set).

Offensive pass blocking in expected passing situations based on pressure rate allowed (x-axis) and time to pressure allowed (y-axis) pic.twitter.com/aE8ONULWLy

— Arjun Menon (@arjunmenon100) November 27, 2023

it's in the title and the tweet, but this is only looking at expected passing situations, not all dropbacks. So think basically when a team is trailing, in 2nd and long, 3rd down, etc.

— Arjun Menon (@arjunmenon100) November 27, 2023

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
This is what I've been saying for YEARS. It's not just unit pass protection issues. It's WHEN this team has to play off script when the lack of talent is exposed (e.g. when it's a predictable passing set).

Offensive pass blocking in expected passing situations based on pressure rate allowed (x-axis) and time to pressure allowed (y-axis) pic.twitter.com/aE8ONULWLy

— Arjun Menon (@arjunmenon100) November 27, 2023

it's in the title and the tweet, but this is only looking at expected passing situations, not all dropbacks. So think basically when a team is trailing, in 2nd and long, 3rd down, etc.

— Arjun Menon (@arjunmenon100) November 27, 2023

AND as we have told you for years an elite QB can make the o line look better. Proof is right there. Brock is clearly elevating the O line.

Seeing Miami and their quick throw offense number one shows those numbers also lack some context.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
This is what I've been saying for YEARS. It's not just unit pass protection issues. It's WHEN this team has to play off script when the lack of talent is exposed (e.g. when it's a predictable passing set).

Offensive pass blocking in expected passing situations based on pressure rate allowed (x-axis) and time to pressure allowed (y-axis) pic.twitter.com/aE8ONULWLy

— Arjun Menon (@arjunmenon100) November 27, 2023

it's in the title and the tweet, but this is only looking at expected passing situations, not all dropbacks. So think basically when a team is trailing, in 2nd and long, 3rd down, etc.

— Arjun Menon (@arjunmenon100) November 27, 2023

AND as we have told you for years an elite QB can make the o line look better. Proof is right there. Brock is clearly elevating the O line.

Seeing Miami and their quick throw offense number one shows those numbers also lack some context.

An athletic and tier 1 QB and scheme can absolutely mask a lot. Nobody has ever questioned that.

The issue is, "To what degree?"

IF the goal is to win a SuperBowl, this will cost you in the end just like it did with Mahomes.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
This is what I've been saying for YEARS. It's not just unit pass protection issues. It's WHEN this team has to play off script when the lack of talent is exposed (e.g. when it's a predictable passing set).

Offensive pass blocking in expected passing situations based on pressure rate allowed (x-axis) and time to pressure allowed (y-axis) pic.twitter.com/aE8ONULWLy

— Arjun Menon (@arjunmenon100) November 27, 2023

it's in the title and the tweet, but this is only looking at expected passing situations, not all dropbacks. So think basically when a team is trailing, in 2nd and long, 3rd down, etc.

— Arjun Menon (@arjunmenon100) November 27, 2023

AND as we have told you for years an elite QB can make the o line look better. Proof is right there. Brock is clearly elevating the O line.

Seeing Miami and their quick throw offense number one shows those numbers also lack some context.

Originally posted by SLCNiner:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Playaction helps Purdy. Why would they decrease it?

My hypothesis is that it has nothing to do with Purdy, it has to do with how defenses have changed from a league wide perspective. With the way the league has moved to more Quarters, playaction does not help as much with opening up the area behind the LBs. I'm talking specifically about when the 49ers use playaction, then target the intermediate area behind the LBs and in front of the safeties. It has to do with how Quarters safeties line up at shallow depth (compared to Cover2 and Cover3) and also with how in many variations of Quarters, the safeties have a run fit - whereas Cover2 and Cover3 deep safeties do not have a run fit.

Let's use Cover3 as an example of how playaction works very well. The three players in deep zones in a Cover3 do not have a run fit. They will not honor playaction since their goal is to not get beat deep. So playaction, all 8 box defenders (LBs) creep towards the LoS, while the deep zones do not creep towards the LoS. This opens up the area behind the LBs, and in front of the deep zone guys. When the craze was the Seattle Cover3, playaction made sense to screw with the 8 box defenders.

In Quarters, the two deep safeties play shallow - this is a characteristic of Quarters - about 10-12 yards behind the LoS. This is not deep compared to Cover2 safeties, and Cover3 deep middle safety. So playaction, the two Quarters safeties creep from 12 yards back to 10 depth. All playaction did was compress the area behind the LBs and in front of the Quarters safeties. And if that's the area the 49ers want to target intermediate routes, playaction does not help. Where playaction would help versus Quarters safeties is when you want to attack deep. But most of the explosives and mini-explosives for the 49ers are in the intermediate areas.

Fantastic post!

Originally posted by GoreGoreGore:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
This is what I've been saying for YEARS. It's not just unit pass protection issues. It's WHEN this team has to play off script when the lack of talent is exposed (e.g. when it's a predictable passing set).

Offensive pass blocking in expected passing situations based on pressure rate allowed (x-axis) and time to pressure allowed (y-axis) pic.twitter.com/aE8ONULWLy

— Arjun Menon (@arjunmenon100) November 27, 2023

it's in the title and the tweet, but this is only looking at expected passing situations, not all dropbacks. So think basically when a team is trailing, in 2nd and long, 3rd down, etc.

— Arjun Menon (@arjunmenon100) November 27, 2023

+ Show all quotes
AND as we have told you for years an elite QB can make the o line look better. Proof is right there. Brock is clearly elevating the O line.

Seeing Miami and their quick throw offense number one shows those numbers also lack some context.

An athletic and tier 1 QB and scheme can absolutely mask a lot. Nobody has ever questioned that.

The issue is, "To what degree?"

IF the goal is to win a SuperBowl, this will cost you in the end just like it did with Mahomes.

You did question that though. Multiple debates with you regarding this.

LOL.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by GoreGoreGore:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Dshearn:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Dshearn:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
True Pass Set Pressure Rate rankings by True Pass Set Snaps.

I do want to give the PP a bit more credit here even though these appear pretty accurate even by the eye test.

Brock currently has a 2.81 TTT (NextGen) which is middle of the pack. Typically under Kyle, all of his QB's have been top 5 in fastest TTT...like Tagovailoa in Miami (#1 @ 2.36) rendering PP as moot as possible.

In addition, Brock is 12th in air yards @ 8.3. In short, by holding the ball longer, and attempting longer intermediate and deeper passes, it puts more stress on PP (the whole unit).

Context.

I agree....that passes the eye test....

There is time to throw (subjective, how long till pressure effects the QB) and time till throw, the latter tracks from snap to throw what the actual time is.

Brock's time till throw (according to FantasyPros) is 2.6 seconds, that is way up from earlier in the season when he was at floating between 2.2 and 2.3 for like half the season. That more or less tracks with the eyeball test. Early in the season we were all commenting how we are not seeing rolls to the left or right or anything.

No one in the NFL has as many 20-30-40-50 combine completions. Brock is tied for 13th for completions 10 yards or less. He is 2nd in 20+, 2nd in 30+, 1st in 40+ and 10th in 50+ ( he has 2 and there are 9 people that are tied with 3) He simply is not looking short, and is holding onto the ball.

Brock does invite pressure looking deep...but for the most part it is working.

Agree💯%, it makes sense that Brock is going for the gusto by throwing longer. His accuracy is insane. It's Drew Brees level.

Just FYI

Brees Last full season he hit 74% of his throws. He had 58 20+ throws, 18 30+ throws, 6 40+ throws.

Compared to a partial season by Brock hitting 70% of his throws with 43 20+ throws, 17 30+throws, 7 40+ throws.

Unless Brock goes down odds are he is going to have more deeper throws than Brees, he already has as many 50+ yard throws...they both have 2, he has more 40+ throws already and will likely have significantly more 30+ yard throws.

Great points. So how does one reconcile Kyle's accurate short passing game centered around the play action run game, vs Purdy's insane long range Brees-like accuracy? I don't know personally, I watched Montana and Young and have never had entertained the thought of tweaking Walsh's offense to add more long ball dimensions under either legendary QB's. But the way Purdy's playing, if Kyle gets more speedsters a la Danny Gray for Purdy, I wouldn't argue - so long as Kyle also drafts the requisite offensive linemen that can hold their pass protections longer. Brock's pinpoint accuracy is just simply *insane.*

Don't get me wrong. I live Kyle's short passing play action game centering around a wonderful back like CMC. I think it's a great system. Great Balance, between pass and run. Great all weather offense - good in bad weather and great in good weather. I think Kyle has a genius in picking running backs from the Kmart Discount Employment Bulltin board ads, so I wouldn't want wholesale changes in his offense - it's plenty good already. It's just that Brock's passing skills are just so *insane.*

I don't think Kyle's passing game is as centered around playaction as much as it used to be. Brock is ranked 21st in playaction dropback rate at 24.1%. Jimmy was ranked 4th in the league in 2019 his only full season at 31.9%. Jimmy had a handful of seasons in his career where he was well over 30%. But even Jimmy for the last 2 seasons with us he had a playaction dropback rate of 27.5% in 2021 and 22.0% in 2022.

24% is still a big number in terms of play calls though. One reason is simply that the 49ers actually can run the ball against 8 man fronts now with the kind of misdirections that the two headed Deebo/CMC WideBack's can offer against a defense.

Not compared to 20 other teams in the NFL though.

There are 32 NFL teams running different systems. Each to his own. I don't think Kyle has changed his offensive system, is my point. 24% is one Quarter of all the playcalls he can make. If you consider Kyle keeping as close to a 50/50 run-pass balance, that climbs to 50% just on the passing side of the equation.

Now if I'm reading your % breakdowns wrong and its 24% of only pass attempts, its still a big number.

Dropbacks not attempts. The statement was that Kyle's passing game is centered around playaction. If that were true, 63% of the league wouldn't be running more playaction than a coach who apparently centers his passing game around playaction. That may have been true back in 2019 when he was at the top of the league when it was damn near 1/3 of all dropbacks. Its just not true today when the % of playaction dropbacks is now less than 1/4 and is lower than majority of the league two years in a row now.

I still think Play action is a big part of Kyle's offense. Kyle's offense is 6th in running on the ground with a 4.5 yard average means that defenses can't tee off on Purdy and his passing. That may be one reason Kyle doesn't have to play action, simply because defenses *have* to play a base defense instead of nickel on Kyle's offense. Hence Kyle doesn't have to play action so much, as just a much more simple drop back off a the shotgun formation (for example). The fact that play action has been reduced in terms of percentage playcalls, doesn't mean it's *not* centered around the play action passing game.

This doesn't make any logical sense to me. Because centered to me means that everything else plays off of it. Which doesn't seem to be the case from what I can tell. We don't use playaction to set everything else up. Playaction is simply a tool in the tool box for when LB's and safeties start to overplay our running game. I see it ran a few times a game but not any amount that really sticks out to me. After looking at the numbers. Brock is averaging 31 dropbacks a game. At 24.1% playction rate, that's 7 dropbacks per game. Less than 1 per drive.

I just rewatched the opening first drive of the Seattle game - I counted two play action passes. So I don't know where you are getting your stats from.

Because of two plays on the opening drive in 1 of 11 games so far this season makes your case for a trend?

Yeah, specially if you can't tell me where you are getting your stats.

If you did you would still argue it lol. All of this just to make Jimmy look better

He has no ammo for his argument. As far as I am concerned the debate on playaction is over and really isn't O line related anyway.

Dude, the Offensive line is **KEY** to the play action pass. Kye Shanahan is a master of the play action and it's been always a big part of his offense.

Kyle Shanahan's outside zone is incredibly effective and a great play in itself, but the 49ers offense thrives off of counters to their run game. The passing concepts off of outside zone are pretty simple, but stopping them is another issue. The first counter series off of outside zone is the play-action package.
https://weeklyspiral.com/2021/06/17/kyle-shanahans-play-action-scheme/#google_vignette

It's no secret that Kyle Shanahan loves the play-action passing. It's an integral part of how he builds his offense, and it's very effective when combined with the outside zone running scheme in particular.
https://www.ninersnation.com/2020/10/29/21538618/anatomy-of-a-play-detailing-the-49ers-play-action-drift-concept

Here's how each offensive position reacts to the play-action pass.
Offensive Line: The offensive line's key to playing action is to make it look like it's a run play. The lineman will fire out and make contact. However, they will not go downfield. They will either fire out 1 yard and make contact or kick-step backward like they normally would on a pass.
https://www.ninersnation.com/2020/10/29/21538618/anatomy-of-a-play-detailing-the-49ers-play-action-drift-concept

+ Show all quotes
Of course the O line plays a role. The O line is involved in all aspects of the offense. But please tell me which part of our debate was about the O line and not about Kyle's scheme and frequency of use?

play action *is* a big part of Kyle's scheme. He hasn't gotten away from it at all. Purdy's development as a passer doesn't negate the fact that his offense still revolves around play action. 24% (from your stats) says that is still a big part of the offense.

Tell me there is another team that runs the ball more and passes the ball less than the 49ers? Being 22nd in the league in playaction dropback% does not scream " we center our offense around playaction." By the way, you straight up lied about coming out in the Seahawks game running playaction. Brock came out throwing the ball from shotgun.

Originally posted by Heroism:
I hope Banks is feeling good because we need his power and size up against those 2 fat f**ks Philly has inside. Jordan Davis has gotta be pushing 400 pounds.

Originally posted by YACBros85:
I got that breakdown sooner than I thought.

By season

2017- 23.8%
2018- 27.5%
2019- 31.9%
2020- 26.3%
2021- 28.9%
2022- 22.9%
2023- 24.1%

By QB

Beathard- 21.2%
Hoyer- 22.6%
Garoppolo- 28.5%
Mullens- 27.8%
Lance- 27.0%
Purdy- 25.4%
Johnson- 23.5%

Brock was at 26.6% last season.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Heroism:
I hope Banks is feeling good because we need his power and size up against those 2 fat f**ks Philly has inside. Jordan Davis has gotta be pushing 400 pounds.

Agree, and Feliciano is bigger than Burford so I hope his size helps him anchor better than a smaller OLineman.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
This is what I've been saying for YEARS. It's not just unit pass protection issues. It's WHEN this team has to play off script when the lack of talent is exposed (e.g. when it's a predictable passing set).

Offensive pass blocking in expected passing situations based on pressure rate allowed (x-axis) and time to pressure allowed (y-axis) pic.twitter.com/aE8ONULWLy

— Arjun Menon (@arjunmenon100) November 27, 2023

it's in the title and the tweet, but this is only looking at expected passing situations, not all dropbacks. So think basically when a team is trailing, in 2nd and long, 3rd down, etc.

— Arjun Menon (@arjunmenon100) November 27, 2023

AND as we have told you for years an elite QB can make the o line look better. Proof is right there. Brock is clearly elevating the O line.

Seeing Miami and their quick throw offense number one shows those numbers also lack some context.

What is the difference between that chart and the true pass set pressure chart I posted last week? They both demonstrate the same thing, don't they?

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by GoreGoreGore:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
This is what I've been saying for YEARS. It's not just unit pass protection issues. It's WHEN this team has to play off script when the lack of talent is exposed (e.g. when it's a predictable passing set).

Offensive pass blocking in expected passing situations based on pressure rate allowed (x-axis) and time to pressure allowed (y-axis) pic.twitter.com/aE8ONULWLy

— Arjun Menon (@arjunmenon100) November 27, 2023

it's in the title and the tweet, but this is only looking at expected passing situations, not all dropbacks. So think basically when a team is trailing, in 2nd and long, 3rd down, etc.

— Arjun Menon (@arjunmenon100) November 27, 2023

AND as we have told you for years an elite QB can make the o line look better. Proof is right there. Brock is clearly elevating the O line.

Seeing Miami and their quick throw offense number one shows those numbers also lack some context.

+ Show all quotes
An athletic and tier 1 QB and scheme can absolutely mask a lot. Nobody has ever questioned that.

The issue is, "To what degree?"

IF the goal is to win a SuperBowl, this will cost you in the end just like it did with Mahomes.

You did question that though. Multiple debates with you regarding this.

LOL.

How can he say it will or has cost us in the end when even he himself has stated we lost for a multitude of reasons?