49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
LOL. Understatement there. 31st in health over the past 7 years. That said this is the healthiest we've been so don't want to jinx it.

What changed about the scheme this year that has kept them all healthy? Surely with all your in depth research you have the answers.

Well, OL (Williams, Banks, Burford, McKivitz) and RB's (CMC, Mitchell) are still getting hurt. Deebo. Ray-Ray. Kittle. So nothing new. They just haven't had season ending I.R. losses and most have been able to rejoin after a couple weeks. So nothing really other then the longevity.

Agree and I'll just add that in 2020 I think the 49ers had 9 games on astro-turf. It was one of the most injury riddled teams in Kyle's tenure. Right now, I'm looking (for the whole season) at around 3-ish games or so, on astro turf, the rest, including the upcoming Eagle's game is on natural grass.

It's convenient to ignore this though. Ignoring the neglect on the OL is parallel to the same crowd ignoring our outlier injury trends too. #BlindFaith

yeah, I've stated before - and to make my point I'll briefly summarize - I think Kyle thinks he can get away with smaller OLinemen because of scheme (the outside zone) because he needs more athleticism vs power at the point of attack. The outside zone run requires the Running back to draw the DLine one way or another at the point of attack, and cut/accelerate against that tendency for yardage. So he (in a sense) needs athletic OLinemen to simply screen the DLinemen instead of actually blocking them at the point of attack. You need a certain amount of agility and acceleration vs power with that kind of run game system - so he tends to favor smaller offensive linemen.

My point: the problem with smaller OLinemen going against bigger DLinemen is the loads on the tendons, muscles and bones. Structurally the bigger the more it can take the stress, the lesser, the less (whether it be bones, tendons, or muscles) stress it can take. So - basically - smaller OLinemen (all else being equal) will tend to get injured MORE than bigger OLinemen. So the key for Kyle is to have a stock of good OLinemen around to plug and play when one of them gets injured. So when Richburg went down, he didn't have enough OLine depth to shore up the Right Guard and hence Person got dominated by Chris jones. That's why I was so upset about the Camron Latu pick, that should have been a OLine pick, for depth and health reasons.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Really? Our ER that couldn't close out, our secondary who s**t the bed, our S who couldn't catch, our defense who couldn't make 1 stop, our QB who couldn't garner 1 first down, our HC who went Pete Carroll and passed instead of running, our ST 4Q fails, penalties, pass protection, etc. Take your pick...they look pretty equal to me in the grand scheme of things.

You act like our QB had 30 attempts in the 4Q and had perfect team play around him and he just blew it.

So disingenuous.

No one left more plays out on the field than our QB. Not all on him just he deserves the biggest blame share. It's not equal.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Scheme is a valid argument. It's happening in Miami too.

No it isn't because you can't isolate a root cause. Again what part of the scheme causes a guy rolling up on Trent or Banks getting turf toe. How would a different scheme prevent that?

Who's scheme would guarantee health?

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Really? Our ER that couldn't close out, our secondary who s**t the bed, our S who couldn't catch, our defense who couldn't make 1 stop, our QB who couldn't garner 1 first down, our HC who went Pete Carroll and passed instead of running, our ST 4Q fails, penalties, pass protection, etc. Take your pick...they look pretty equal to me in the grand scheme of things.

You act like our QB had 30 attempts in the 4Q and had perfect team play around him and he just blew it.

So disingenuous.

No one left more plays out on the field than our QB. Not all on him just he deserves the biggest blame share. It's not equal.

we had the ball 3 more series after that dropped INT and jimmy didn't want to throw the ball.. Stafford did tho

NVM don't want to participate.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Really? Our ER that couldn't close out, our secondary who s**t the bed, our S who couldn't catch, our defense who couldn't make 1 stop, our QB who couldn't garner 1 first down, our HC who went Pete Carroll and passed instead of running, our ST 4Q fails, penalties, pass protection, etc. Take your pick...they look pretty equal to me in the grand scheme of things.

You act like our QB had 30 attempts in the 4Q and had perfect team play around him and he just blew it.

So disingenuous.

No one left more plays out on the field than our QB. Not all on him just he deserves the biggest blame share. It's not equal.

How many passing attempts did he have in those final 7 minutes?

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Scheme is a valid argument. It's happening in Miami too.

No it isn't because you can't isolate a root cause. Again what part of the scheme causes a guy rolling up on Trent or Banks getting turf toe. How would a different scheme prevent that?

Who's scheme would guarantee health?

Just those 2 over all these years huh? Amazing.

Also, to avoid your B/W thinking, scheme is not the only issue here.

This is just what happens within it year after year after year after year after year after year after year...is that 7?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Scheme is a valid argument. It's happening in Miami too.

No it isn't because you can't isolate a root cause. Again what part of the scheme causes a guy rolling up on Trent or Banks getting turf toe. How would a different scheme prevent that?

Who's scheme would guarantee health?

Just those 2 over all these years huh? Amazing.

Also, to avoid your B/W thinking, scheme is not the only issue here.

This is just what happens within it year after year after year after year after year after year after year...is that 7?

You just said it was scheme and now it's not ?

Originally posted by Giedi:
yeah, I've stated before - and to make my point I'll briefly summarize - I think Kyle thinks he can get away with smaller OLinemen because of scheme (the outside zone) because he needs more athleticism vs power at the point of attack. The outside zone run requires the Running back to draw the DLine one way or another at the point of attack, and cut/accelerate against that tendency for yardage. So he (in a sense) needs athletic OLinemen to simply screen the DLinemen instead of actually blocking them at the point of attack. You need a certain amount of agility and acceleration vs power with that kind of run game system - so he tends to favor smaller offensive linemen.

My point: the problem with smaller OLinemen going against bigger DLinemen is the loads on the tendons, muscles and bones. Structurally the bigger the more it can take the stress, the lesser, the less (whether it be bones, tendons, or muscles) stress it can take. So - basically - smaller OLinemen (all else being equal) will tend to get injured MORE than bigger OLinemen. So the key for Kyle is to have a stock of good OLinemen around to plug and play when one of them gets injured. So when Richburg went down, he didn't have enough OLine depth to shore up the Right Guard and hence Person got dominated by Chris jones. That's why I was so upset about the Camron Latu pick, that should have been a OLine pick, for depth and health reasons.

Kyle knows that though...

We run a lot of gap/power now and our lineman are much bigger than they've ever been.

Case-in-point, we have 6 OL roughly equal or heavier than our biggest guy in 2019 (Laken).

Originally posted by All22:

Originally posted by Giedi:
yeah, I've stated before - and to make my point I'll briefly summarize - I think Kyle thinks he can get away with smaller OLinemen because of scheme (the outside zone) because he needs more athleticism vs power at the point of attack. The outside zone run requires the Running back to draw the DLine one way or another at the point of attack, and cut/accelerate against that tendency for yardage. So he (in a sense) needs athletic OLinemen to simply screen the DLinemen instead of actually blocking them at the point of attack. You need a certain amount of agility and acceleration vs power with that kind of run game system - so he tends to favor smaller offensive linemen.

My point: the problem with smaller OLinemen going against bigger DLinemen is the loads on the tendons, muscles and bones. Structurally the bigger the more it can take the stress, the lesser, the less (whether it be bones, tendons, or muscles) stress it can take. So - basically - smaller OLinemen (all else being equal) will tend to get injured MORE than bigger OLinemen. So the key for Kyle is to have a stock of good OLinemen around to plug and play when one of them gets injured. So when Richburg went down, he didn't have enough OLine depth to shore up the Right Guard and hence Person got dominated by Chris jones. That's why I was so upset about the Camron Latu pick, that should have been a OLine pick, for depth and health reasons.

Kyle knows that though...

We run a lot of gap/power now and our lineman are much bigger than they've ever been.

Case-in-point, we have 6 OL roughly equal or heavier than our biggest guy in 2019 (Laken).

Well, he didn't address it in the draft. That's what I was upset about. He did get some decent free agents (Feliciano and Pryor) but they are one year rentals. They will be gone, or very expensive to sign next year. Now they do have Jalen Moore and Burford as longer term guys, and as you said bigger too. They just got this Bartch guy, and I don't really know how good he is. Point is that they need OLine help and didn't get it in the draft. One reason they say they didn't pick an OLineman is that all the good ones are gone when they wanted to pick, but I find it hard to believe when the Eagle's Oline (one of the best in the NFL), on average, are 5th round picks.

That's one reason I agree with NC that it seems Offensive Line simply isn't a big priority for them, for whatever reason. It should be, because they have their franchise QB in Brock, and they need to protect the hell out of him not like what Indianapolis did to Andrew Luck.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
LOL. Understatement there. 31st in health over the past 7 years. That said this is the healthiest we've been so don't want to jinx it.

What changed about the scheme this year that has kept them all healthy? Surely with all your in depth research you have the answers.

Well, OL (Williams, Banks, Burford, McKivitz) and RB's (CMC, Mitchell) are still getting hurt. Deebo. Ray-Ray. Kittle. So nothing new. They just haven't had season ending I.R. losses and most have been able to rejoin after a couple weeks. So nothing really other then the longevity.

Agree and I'll just add that in 2020 I think the 49ers had 9 games on astro-turf. It was one of the most injury riddled teams in Kyle's tenure. Right now, I'm looking (for the whole season) at around 3-ish games or so, on astro turf, the rest, including the upcoming Eagle's game is on natural grass.

It's convenient to ignore this though. Ignoring the neglect on the OL is parallel to the same crowd ignoring our outlier injury trends too. #BlindFaith

yeah, I've stated before - and to make my point I'll briefly summarize - I think Kyle thinks he can get away with smaller OLinemen because of scheme (the outside zone) because he needs more athleticism vs power at the point of attack. The outside zone run requires the Running back to draw the DLine one way or another at the point of attack, and cut/accelerate against that tendency for yardage. So he (in a sense) needs athletic OLinemen to simply screen the DLinemen instead of actually blocking them at the point of attack. You need a certain amount of agility and acceleration vs power with that kind of run game system - so he tends to favor smaller offensive linemen.

My point: the problem with smaller OLinemen going against bigger DLinemen is the loads on the tendons, muscles and bones. Structurally the bigger the more it can take the stress, the lesser, the less (whether it be bones, tendons, or muscles) stress it can take. So - basically - smaller OLinemen (all else being equal) will tend to get injured MORE than bigger OLinemen. So the key for Kyle is to have a stock of good OLinemen around to plug and play when one of them gets injured. So when Richburg went down, he didn't have enough OLine depth to shore up the Right Guard and hence Person got dominated by Chris jones. That's why I was so upset about the Camron Latu pick, that should have been a OLine pick, for depth and health reasons.

Very good points and agree. Hope Kyle can find more stronger agile Olineman like TW, who is a unicorn 🦄..So it's going to be hard to do but hopefully he can. Another good point, Latu was not needed more than Olineman to develope.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Scheme is a valid argument. It's happening in Miami too.

No it isn't because you can't isolate a root cause. Again what part of the scheme causes a guy rolling up on Trent or Banks getting turf toe. How would a different scheme prevent that?

Who's scheme would guarantee health?

Just those 2 over all these years huh? Amazing.

Also, to avoid your B/W thinking, scheme is not the only issue here.

This is just what happens within it year after year after year after year after year after year after year...is that 7?

You just said it was scheme and now it's not ?

Scheme is one of the theories/components. The truth is it's a whole consistent collection of stuff including bad luck.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by the_dynasty:
I have no idea what the line can do to stop Carter. This guy is dominant, has high football iq and tremendous power and gamespeed. You can argue he's the best player on the entire Eagles Dline and he's just a rookie.

Dude is a beast.

tier 1 DL?

Both of us.

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Jaguars pass pro I imagine will start to fall now that they lost their starting LT for the season.

An LT injury? They must be running Kyle's "high risk" scheme.

Originally posted by WINiner:
NVM don't want to participate.