49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Well yea. You can never be wrong when you are the thread gate keeper and continue to change the narrative to suit your argument.

Nobody changed a narrative. I've been very consistent across the board.

And aren't you the one who's been saying this is really a tier 4 OL mainly d/t the PP?

I never changed my stance on where I believe the O line is ranked. I just don't believe you need a top 2 O line to win the SB. I believe you can win inspite of an average to below average O line. I believe QB and defense are far more important.

I never had an issue with you believing you didn't need a top 2 OL to win a Superbowl. I merely stated the last 7 years proved otherwise. Let's see what year 8 brings. And year 8 is going to bring just that. Likely a tier 2 OL + tier 1 QB. That's not exactly a big stretch here from the original formula. It just means there is no tier 1 QB + OL combo this year. Defense? Tier 1 QB + OL has proven to overcome those to win Championships far more recently. You can win with an average or below average OL. But can you win a Superbowl? I haven't seen that yet. Have you?

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by NCommand:
And John. It's definitely a well documented team building strategy.

Will it be "good enough?" Let's hope so!

You just seem to be prepped to assign a future loss to the lack of having a dominant line. Similar to others who are waiting to jump on Kyle… or Brock.

Didn't I just say the exact opposite? I already said it's an even playing field. I think this is our year. Tier 2 OL + MVP Tier 1 QB.

Now if we lose, what are the odds OL and secondary will be leading culprits?

Originally posted by NCommand:
I never had an issue with you believing you didn't need a top 2 OL to win a Superbowl. I merely stated the last 7 years proved otherwise. Let's see what year 8 brings. And year 8 is going to bring just that. Likely a tier 2 OL + tier 1 QB. That's not exactly a big stretch here from the original formula. It just means there is no tier 1 QB + OL combo this year. Defense? Tier 1 QB + OL has proven to overcome those to win Championships far more recently. You can win with an average or before average OL. But can you win a Superbowl? I haven't seen that yet. Have you?

To me (what I was getting at earlier) is how do we assign blame to OL in years past when we very clearly did not meet what I feel is an updated criteria in needing T1 QB/OL.

If you felt this way before, there's no way you bet Lions and Eagles right?

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:
>>Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
We're not, but that doesn't answer what is sub par and Purdy decisions throw INTs<<

I'm not the only one saying that.

A second factor is that the Niners are a decidedly left-handed team running the ball. The foundational concept of Shanahan's scheme is unpredictability. An investment in the right side of the line would restore balance to the force, they could run left or right with equal success.
https://www.si.com/nfl/49ers/news/progress-and-barriers-on-the-49ers-quest-for-six

We do also run to the right, not as much but it's not 100%

but what is sub par?

Here you go.

adjective

• Below an average, usual, or normal level, quality, or the like; below par: This month his performance has been subpar. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/subpar#google_vignette

great. so how would a below avg OL be able to win 12 games, lead the league in rushing, passing, have 4 1k yard players and 2 MVP candidates ?

also, how does a below avg line have better results than Tier 1 OLs ?

the math just doesn't add up

So you think the 49ers OLine played elite in the 49ers losses this season?

Does it have to be below avg or elite as the options to choose between ? that's pretty extreme

I've been saying we are towards the top in OL (not the best or elite) the last few years and QB play was the missing element.

one thing for sure is that we are not sub par.. unless par is being number 1 and not 16. We also can't have the offense production like have had with a below avg OL

Take out Trent Williams, and I think our OLine becomes average. Take out Banks, and it becomes sub par. Just my opinon, of course.

That's actually fact. LOL

Originally posted by NCommand:
Didn't I just say the exact opposite? I already said it's an even playing field. I think this is our year. Tier 2 OL + MVP Tier 1 QB.

Now if we lose, what are the odds OL and secondary will be leading culprits?

I'd honestly guess not high for either if they remain healthy.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Well yea. You can never be wrong when you are the thread gate keeper and continue to change the narrative to suit your argument.

Nobody changed a narrative. I've been very consistent across the board.

And aren't you the one who's been saying this is really a tier 4 OL mainly d/t the PP?

I never changed my stance on where I believe the O line is ranked. I just don't believe you need a top 2 O line to win the SB. I believe you can win inspite of an average to below average O line. I believe QB and defense are far more important.

Just my opinion, but you can't get to the super bowl if your OLine is subPar. There are too many elite passing defenses in the playoffs to survive the playoffs with a sub-par OLine. OLine has to be good or better to survive the playoffs and get to the big dance. Maybe QB or Defense *may* even it up if any *one* or all *three* are generational - but that's rare.

Maybe not subpar. I admit I was being a bit extreme with that take. But our line is average with Trent and below average without him. I think having Trent really does make the difference. With our defense + holy trinity (Trent, Brock & CMC) we have the best chance of anyone to win the SB this year.

Fair. Hope that's good enough!

Originally posted by libertyforever:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Banks too. Without Trent and Banks, this OL is in big trouble. And you can misquote me out of context on that one.

Without Brock, this offense is in big trouble.

Without CMC and Elijah, this offense is in big trouble.

Without Kittle and Juice, this offense is in big trouble.

Without Aiyuk and Deebo, this offense is in big trouble.

Without Bosa and Young, this defense is in big trouble.

Without Armstead and Hargrave, this defense is in big trouble.

Without Warner and Greenlaw, this defense is in big trouble.

Without Mooney and Lenoir, this defense is in big trouble.

LOL. The sad thing is this reads like the past 7 years. Glad that's not the case this year! Finally.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Thank you. Also shows he never valued QB play in the first place. Any QB play will do and if it doesn't work out blame the OL tier 1 or not.

Well I honestly don't want to personally crush NC. Seems like a good enough dude and I generally enjoy his posts. But this argument is clearly morphing for convenience.

This is an odd take. The sole purpose of the bet (starting in the OL thread) was that the previous 7 years all had tier 1 QB + OL combos. Even Hurts last year.

At the time of the bet, we didn't know who the tier 1 QB's would become so we started with what we did know...which OL's were slated as tier 1. Nobody knew Mahomes wouldn't play at a tier 1 level (actually I did), Brock would be considered an MVP candidate, Hurts would fall off a cliff and Goff would play the best of his career (but still not a tier 1).

And likewise. You're a good poster too. Appreciate your discussions.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Thank you. Also shows he never valued QB play in the first place. Any QB play will do and if it doesn't work out blame the OL tier 1 or not.

Well I honestly don't want to personally crush NC. Seems like a good enough dude and I generally enjoy his posts. But this argument is clearly morphing for convenience.

This is an odd take. The sole purpose of the bet (starting in the OL thread) was that the previous 7 years all had tier 1 QB + OL combos. Even Hurts last year.

At the time of the bet, we didn't know who the tier 1 QB's would become so we started with what we did know...which OL's were slated as tier 1. Nobody knew Mahomes wouldn't play at a tier 1 level (actually I did), Brock would be considered an MVP candidate, Hurts would fall off a cliff and Goff would play the best of his career (but still not a tier 1).

And likewise. You're a good poster too. Appreciate your discussions.

So you're actually saying Tier 1 production from the QB then? Because you should have absolutely known that Hurts and especially Goff are not Tier 1 QBs.,, and Mahomes absolutely is.

And you also would have seemingly not put as much blame on our OL for past failures because Jimmy isn't and has never been close to a Tier 1 QB.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Thank you. Also shows he never valued QB play in the first place. Any QB play will do and if it doesn't work out blame the OL tier 1 or not.

Well I honestly don't want to personally crush NC. Seems like a good enough dude and I generally enjoy his posts. But this argument is clearly morphing for convenience.

This is an odd take. The sole purpose of the bet (starting in the OL thread) was that the previous 7 years all had tier 1 QB + OL combos. Even Hurts last year.

At the time of the bet, we didn't know who the tier 1 QB's would become so we started with what we did know...which OL's were slated as tier 1. Nobody knew Mahomes wouldn't play at a tier 1 level (actually I did), Brock would be considered an MVP candidate, Hurts would fall off a cliff and Goff would play the best of his career (but still not a tier 1).

And likewise. You're a good poster too. Appreciate your discussions.

So you're actually saying Tier 1 production from the QB then? Because you should have absolutely known that Hurts and especially Goff are not Tier 1 QBs.,, and Mahomes absolutely is.

And you also would have seemingly not put as much blame on our OL for past failures because Jimmy isn't and has never been close to a Tier 1 QB.

Hurts just came off an MVP year and lost a Superbowl by 3 in the final minutes. The OL remained tier 1 so there was always a chance he had great odds to return to that level of play and continue the formula. Goff? I knew that wasn't going to fit the formula. LOL. But clearly that OL helped him reach his ceiling and best stretch of his career.

But yes, if I was betting straight QB's, that's a whole other bet and topic.

Jimmy was never tier 1. Having a tier 1 OL only would have given him a fighting chance esp. in the 4Q. The OL was MORE important for him because he was a classic drop back QB and not as talented.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Hurts just came off an MVP year and lost a Superbowl by 3 in the final minutes. The OL remained tier 1 so there was always a chance he had great odds to return to that level of play and continue the formula. Goff? I knew that wasn't going to fit the formula. LOL. But clearly that OL helped him reach his ceiling.

But yes, if I was betting straight QB's, that's a whole other bet and topic.

Jimmy was never tier 1. Having a tier 1 OL only would have given him a fighting chance esp. in the 4Q. The OL was MORE important for him because he was a classic drop back QB and not as talented.

Well that's what I was getting at. To me, it appears you strictly bet OL. The weight assigned to previous Niners shortcomings (as far as I can tell) was heavily, if not strictly, based on OL.

If you're going to be willing to compromise on the necessity of having a T1 QB and/or OL, you prob bet on the Chiefs (though you do seem to have a 'dislike' for Kermit).

I'm just being honest in trying to piece together what I think is a pretty obvious 'adjustment' in your arguments about what is necessary to win. This was one of the reasons I took the bet, beyond the obvious value advantage I would have bet on principle. I don't agree with any of the formulas (T1 OL, T1QB/OL, or T1QB/T2 OL).

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Thank you. Also shows he never valued QB play in the first place. Any QB play will do and if it doesn't work out blame the OL tier 1 or not.

Well I honestly don't want to personally crush NC. Seems like a good enough dude and I generally enjoy his posts. But this argument is clearly morphing for convenience.

This is an odd take. The sole purpose of the bet (starting in the OL thread) was that the previous 7 years all had tier 1 QB + OL combos. Even Hurts last year.

At the time of the bet, we didn't know who the tier 1 QB's would become so we started with what we did know...which OL's were slated as tier 1. Nobody knew Mahomes wouldn't play at a tier 1 level (actually I did), Brock would be considered an MVP candidate, Hurts would fall off a cliff and Goff would play the best of his career (but still not a tier 1).

And likewise. You're a good poster too. Appreciate your discussions.

So you're actually saying Tier 1 production from the QB then? Because you should have absolutely known that Hurts and especially Goff are not Tier 1 QBs.,, and Mahomes absolutely is.

And you also would have seemingly not put as much blame on our OL for past failures because Jimmy isn't and has never been close to a Tier 1 QB.

Hurts just came off an MVP year and lost a Superbowl by 3 in the final minutes. The OL remained tier 1 so there was always a chance he had great odds to return to that level of play and continue the formula. Goff? I knew that wasn't going to fit the formula. LOL. But clearly that OL helped him reach his ceiling and best stretch of his career.

But yes, if I was betting straight QB's, that's a whole other bet and topic.

Jimmy was never tier 1. Having a tier 1 OL only would have given him a fighting chance esp. in the 4Q. The OL was MORE important for him because he was a classic drop back QB and not as talented.

you admit you don't know how your SME has OLs ranked, but you still believe if we had a tier one we beat the Rams.. when all the film in the world shows we needed better QB play lol

not sure how you can be so sure of something when you don't know how it works

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Didn't I just say the exact opposite? I already said it's an even playing field. I think this is our year. Tier 2 OL + MVP Tier 1 QB.

Now if we lose, what are the odds OL and secondary will be leading culprits?

I'd honestly guess not high for either if they remain healthy.

I mean, whenever we lose, it's almost always QB (TO's), OL and secondary. So that's just playing the common odds and our known weaknesses. Nobody is predicting a loss though.

Yeah, health has always been the key too esp. with those units.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Hurts just came off an MVP year and lost a Superbowl by 3 in the final minutes. The OL remained tier 1 so there was always a chance he had great odds to return to that level of play and continue the formula. Goff? I knew that wasn't going to fit the formula. LOL. But clearly that OL helped him reach his ceiling.

But yes, if I was betting straight QB's, that's a whole other bet and topic.

Jimmy was never tier 1. Having a tier 1 OL only would have given him a fighting chance esp. in the 4Q. The OL was MORE important for him because he was a classic drop back QB and not as talented.

Well that's what I was getting at. To me, it appears you strictly bet OL. The weight assigned to previous Niners shortcomings (as far as I can tell) was heavily, if not strictly, based on OL.

If you're going to be willing to compromise on the necessity of having a T1 QB and/or OL, you prob bet on the Chiefs (though you do seem to have a 'dislike' for Kermit).

I'm just being honest in trying to piece together what I think is a pretty obvious 'adjustment' in your arguments about what is necessary to win. This was one of the reasons I took the bet, beyond the obvious value advantage I would have bet on principle. I don't agree with any of the formulas (T1 OL, T1QB/OL, or T1QB/T2 OL).

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Thank you. Also shows he never valued QB play in the first place. Any QB play will do and if it doesn't work out blame the OL tier 1 or not.

Well I honestly don't want to personally crush NC. Seems like a good enough dude and I generally enjoy his posts. But this argument is clearly morphing for convenience.

This is an odd take. The sole purpose of the bet (starting in the OL thread) was that the previous 7 years all had tier 1 QB + OL combos. Even Hurts last year.

At the time of the bet, we didn't know who the tier 1 QB's would become so we started with what we did know...which OL's were slated as tier 1. Nobody knew Mahomes wouldn't play at a tier 1 level (actually I did), Brock would be considered an MVP candidate, Hurts would fall off a cliff and Goff would play the best of his career (but still not a tier 1).

And likewise. You're a good poster too. Appreciate your discussions.

So you're actually saying Tier 1 production from the QB then? Because you should have absolutely known that Hurts and especially Goff are not Tier 1 QBs.,, and Mahomes absolutely is.

And you also would have seemingly not put as much blame on our OL for past failures because Jimmy isn't and has never been close to a Tier 1 QB.

This new tier 1 OL+QB combo is a very recent thing and not part of the equation last 7 years. When I initially proposed the bet up until you took it, this was strictly a tier 1 OL thing on his end. Don't let him gaslight you lol