49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Those O line's were twice as good with Tom Brady behind center then they were with those other QB's. Unless someone can prove that those O line's drastically changed personnel before and after Brady, that chart should clearly put this debate to bed.

They didn't . They were horrific prior to Tom both in PP and run blocking, and it's all documented in #s and rankings. . Good rule of thumb is to always fact check what certain folks say

TB12 is the best to ever do it. Hard to say they didn't upgrade the OL, they drafted Wirfs the offseason where they added Brady. That was 13th pick in the draft.

Here was his contributions as a rook: As a rookie, Wirfs started all 16 games in the 2020 season, only allowing 1 sack to Khalil Mack of the Chicago Bears in Week 5.[15] Wirfs played and started all four games in the Buccaneers' playoff run that resulted in the team winning Super Bowl LV.[16][17] He was ranked 89th by his fellow players on the NFL Top 100 Players of 2021.[18]

You don't call that an upgrade? I agree on the bold

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Those O line's were twice as good with Tom Brady behind center then they were with those other QB's. Unless someone can prove that those O line's drastically changed personnel before and after Brady, that chart should clearly put this debate to bed.

They didn't . They were horrific prior to Tom both in PP and run blocking, and it's all documented in #s and rankings. . Good rule of thumb is to always fact check what certain folks say

TB12 is the best to ever do it. Hard to say they didn't upgrade the OL, they drafted Wirfs the offseason where they added Brady. That was 13th pick in the draft.

Here was his contributions as a rook: As a rookie, Wirfs started all 16 games in the 2020 season, only allowing 1 sack to Khalil Mack of the Chicago Bears in Week 5.[15] Wirfs played and started all four games in the Buccaneers' playoff run that resulted in the team winning Super Bowl LV.[16][17] He was ranked 89th by his fellow players on the NFL Top 100 Players of 2021.[18]

You don't call that an upgrade? I agree on the bold

Ah so 1 upgrade at RT completely revamped that bottom feeder OL. Not Tom. Got it l. another solid take . Maybe you should focus on the initial tier 1/top 5 OL pre Tom lie that kicked this off

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Those O line's were twice as good with Tom Brady behind center then they were with those other QB's. Unless someone can prove that those O line's drastically changed personnel before and after Brady, that chart should clearly put this debate to bed.

They didn't . They were horrific prior to Tom both in PP and run blocking, and it's all documented in #s and rankings. . Good rule of thumb is to always fact check what certain folks say

TB12 is the best to ever do it. Hard to say they didn't upgrade the OL, they drafted Wirfs the offseason where they added Brady. That was 13th pick in the draft.

Here was his contributions as a rook: As a rookie, Wirfs started all 16 games in the 2020 season, only allowing 1 sack to Khalil Mack of the Chicago Bears in Week 5.[15] Wirfs played and started all four games in the Buccaneers' playoff run that resulted in the team winning Super Bowl LV.[16][17] He was ranked 89th by his fellow players on the NFL Top 100 Players of 2021.[18]

You don't call that an upgrade? I agree on the bold

That is one O lineman on one team. That chart is showing several years on two different teams with one glaring variable. You're gonna have to do better than that.

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Those O line's were twice as good with Tom Brady behind center then they were with those other QB's. Unless someone can prove that those O line's drastically changed personnel before and after Brady, that chart should clearly put this debate to bed.

They didn't . They were horrific prior to Tom both in PP and run blocking, and it's all documented in #s and rankings. . Good rule of thumb is to always fact check what certain folks say

TB12 is the best to ever do it. Hard to say they didn't upgrade the OL, they drafted Wirfs the offseason where they added Brady. That was 13th pick in the draft.

Here was his contributions as a rook: As a rookie, Wirfs started all 16 games in the 2020 season, only allowing 1 sack to Khalil Mack of the Chicago Bears in Week 5.[15] Wirfs played and started all four games in the Buccaneers' playoff run that resulted in the team winning Super Bowl LV.[16][17] He was ranked 89th by his fellow players on the NFL Top 100 Players of 2021.[18]

You don't call that an upgrade? I agree on the bold

Ah so 1 upgrade at RT completely revamped that bottom feeder OL. Not Tom. Got it another solid take

I didn't say anything about Tom, other than he's the best to ever do it. You can draw conclusions on that, in terms of how I feel he upgrades everyone around him...

My only point is I would say yes, it looks like they upgraded the OL. They invested in round 1, and got a guy who was a day 1 contributor and impact player at tackle. To avoid discussing a round 1 impact player on OL, when the convo is how did Tampa change their OL from 2019 to 2020, is suspect.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Those O line's were twice as good with Tom Brady behind center then they were with those other QB's. Unless someone can prove that those O line's drastically changed personnel before and after Brady, that chart should clearly put this debate to bed.

They didn't . They were horrific prior to Tom both in PP and run blocking, and it's all documented in #s and rankings. . Good rule of thumb is to always fact check what certain folks say

TB12 is the best to ever do it. Hard to say they didn't upgrade the OL, they drafted Wirfs the offseason where they added Brady. That was 13th pick in the draft.

Here was his contributions as a rook: As a rookie, Wirfs started all 16 games in the 2020 season, only allowing 1 sack to Khalil Mack of the Chicago Bears in Week 5.[15] Wirfs played and started all four games in the Buccaneers' playoff run that resulted in the team winning Super Bowl LV.[16][17] He was ranked 89th by his fellow players on the NFL Top 100 Players of 2021.[18]

You don't call that an upgrade? I agree on the bold

Ah so 1 upgrade at RT completely revamped that bottom feeder OL. Not Tom. Got it another solid take

I didn't say anything about Tom, other than he's the best to ever do it. You can draw conclusions on that, in terms of how I feel he upgrades everyone around him...

My only point is I would say yes, it looks like they upgraded the OL. They invested in round 1, and got a guy who was a day 1 contributor and impact player at tackle. To avoid discussing a round 1 impact player on OL, when the convo is how did Tampa change their OL from 2019 to 2020, is suspect.

we upgraded to the best LT between 2019 to 2020. but couldn't upgrade QB until 3 years later

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Those O line's were twice as good with Tom Brady behind center then they were with those other QB's. Unless someone can prove that those O line's drastically changed personnel before and after Brady, that chart should clearly put this debate to bed.

They didn't . They were horrific prior to Tom both in PP and run blocking, and it's all documented in #s and rankings. . Good rule of thumb is to always fact check what certain folks say

TB12 is the best to ever do it. Hard to say they didn't upgrade the OL, they drafted Wirfs the offseason where they added Brady. That was 13th pick in the draft.

Here was his contributions as a rook: As a rookie, Wirfs started all 16 games in the 2020 season, only allowing 1 sack to Khalil Mack of the Chicago Bears in Week 5.[15] Wirfs played and started all four games in the Buccaneers' playoff run that resulted in the team winning Super Bowl LV.[16][17] He was ranked 89th by his fellow players on the NFL Top 100 Players of 2021.[18]

You don't call that an upgrade? I agree on the bold

Ah so 1 upgrade at RT completely revamped that bottom feeder OL. Not Tom. Got it another solid take

I didn't say anything about Tom, other than he's the best to ever do it. You can draw conclusions on that, in terms of how I feel he upgrades everyone around him...

My only point is I would say yes, it looks like they upgraded the OL. They invested in round 1, and got a guy who was a day 1 contributor and impact player at tackle. To avoid discussing a round 1 impact player on OL, when the convo is how did Tampa change their OL from 2019 to 2020, is suspect.

That O line was good from 2020-2022 and then suddenly took a dive in 2023 after Tom retired. Are we supposed to believe that is just a coincidence?

lol, I would submit the above as a textbook case, of ppl coming up with an argument first, and fitting all facts to match it second. Which is doing it backwards btw. How else do you ignore Wirfs like he never happened? It would be like saying the Lions did nothing to dramatically upgrade their RB room, nevermind this Gibbs character..

so it's a thread of ppl with their mind made up, and bending all reality to their own presuppositions..

Originally posted by YACBros85:
That O line was good from 2020-2022 and then suddenly took a dive in 2023 after Tom retired. Are we supposed to believe that is just a coincidence?

Notice I'm not disputing the premise, that TB12 makes all around him better. I don't see anyone disputing that. I'm saying they drafted a OL at 13, who yes made an impact. To pretend that didn't happen, as some sort of it can't happen, cuz it has to be all Tom Brady, for the sake of my argument, is denying reality friends..

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
lol, I would submit the above as a textbook case, of ppl coming up with an argument first, and fitting all facts to match it second. Which is doing it backwards btw. How else do you ignore Wirfs like he never happened? It would be like saying the Lions did nothing to dramatically upgrade their RB room, nevermind this Gibbs character..

so it's a thread of ppl with their mind made up, and bending all reality to their own presuppositions..

They still have Whirfs this season, don't they?

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Those O line's were twice as good with Tom Brady behind center then they were with those other QB's. Unless someone can prove that those O line's drastically changed personnel before and after Brady, that chart should clearly put this debate to bed.

They didn't . They were horrific prior to Tom both in PP and run blocking, and it's all documented in #s and rankings. . Good rule of thumb is to always fact check what certain folks say

TB12 is the best to ever do it. Hard to say they didn't upgrade the OL, they drafted Wirfs the offseason where they added Brady. That was 13th pick in the draft.

Here was his contributions as a rook: As a rookie, Wirfs started all 16 games in the 2020 season, only allowing 1 sack to Khalil Mack of the Chicago Bears in Week 5.[15] Wirfs played and started all four games in the Buccaneers' playoff run that resulted in the team winning Super Bowl LV.[16][17] He was ranked 89th by his fellow players on the NFL Top 100 Players of 2021.[18]

You don't call that an upgrade? I agree on the bold

Ah so 1 upgrade at RT completely revamped that bottom feeder OL. Not Tom. Got it another solid take

I didn't say anything about Tom, other than he's the best to ever do it. You can draw conclusions on that, in terms of how I feel he upgrades everyone around him...

My only point is I would say yes, it looks like they upgraded the OL. They invested in round 1, and got a guy who was a day 1 contributor and impact player at tackle. To avoid discussing a round 1 impact player on OL, when the convo is how did Tampa change their OL from 2019 to 2020, is suspect.

lol you absolutely did reference Tom and that was the original point that started all this , so quit muddying the waters like you always do. There is absolutely nothing suspect about saying they were one of the worst, if not the worst, OL in football prior to Tom. drafting a RT in the 1st wasn't the main catalyst, no matter how hard you want to be contrarian. You know what is suspect? Someone saying they had a tier 1/top 5 OL prior to Tom arriving to try and downplay the importance of QB on OL play and then someone else trying to piggyback off that and give credit to a RT revamping everything. Par for the course though

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Those O line's were twice as good with Tom Brady behind center then they were with those other QB's. Unless someone can prove that those O line's drastically changed personnel before and after Brady, that chart should clearly put this debate to bed.

They didn't . They were horrific prior to Tom both in PP and run blocking, and it's all documented in #s and rankings. . Good rule of thumb is to always fact check what certain folks say

TB12 is the best to ever do it. Hard to say they didn't upgrade the OL, they drafted Wirfs the offseason where they added Brady. That was 13th pick in the draft.

Here was his contributions as a rook: As a rookie, Wirfs started all 16 games in the 2020 season, only allowing 1 sack to Khalil Mack of the Chicago Bears in Week 5.[15] Wirfs played and started all four games in the Buccaneers' playoff run that resulted in the team winning Super Bowl LV.[16][17] He was ranked 89th by his fellow players on the NFL Top 100 Players of 2021.[18]

You don't call that an upgrade? I agree on the bold

Ah so 1 upgrade at RT completely revamped that bottom feeder OL. Not Tom. Got it another solid take

I didn't say anything about Tom, other than he's the best to ever do it. You can draw conclusions on that, in terms of how I feel he upgrades everyone around him...

My only point is I would say yes, it looks like they upgraded the OL. They invested in round 1, and got a guy who was a day 1 contributor and impact player at tackle. To avoid discussing a round 1 impact player on OL, when the convo is how did Tampa change their OL from 2019 to 2020, is suspect.

We'd see 2 totally different "OL stats" with Brock to Trey (if he was given the freedom to play his style). Did the OL talent change? Nope.

And yes, they added more talent too to a top unit. People try too hard to diminish the importance of 5+ of 11 players on the field. Madden generation.

Bucs #1 Ranked OL prior to Brady (Brandon Thorn)

https://establishtherun.com/thorn-midseason-nfl-offensive-line-rankings/
From: Pre Brady
LT Donovan Smith
LG Ali Marpet
C Ryan Jensen
RG Alex Cappa
RT Demar Dotson

To: Brady
LT Donovan Smith
LG Ali Marpet
C Ryan Jensen
RG Alex Cappa
RT Tristan Wirfs

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
That O line was good from 2020-2022 and then suddenly took a dive in 2023 after Tom retired. Are we supposed to believe that is just a coincidence?

Notice I'm not disputing the premise, that TB12 makes all around him better. I don't see anyone disputing that. I'm saying they drafted a OL at 13, who yes made an impact. To pretend that didn't happen, as some sort of it can't happen, cuz it has to be all Tom Brady, for the sake of my argument, is denying reality friends..

And I am saying that one player drafted 4 years ago doesn't explain 2 decades of evidence that that chart provides. The sudden changes in efficiency on two separate teams depending on who is at QB is way more telling. The argument has been who makes who better? QB or O line? Unless you have more evidence than just Whirfs, your argument is weak at best.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
That O line was good from 2020-2022 and then suddenly took a dive in 2023 after Tom retired. Are we supposed to believe that is just a coincidence?

Notice I'm not disputing the premise, that TB12 makes all around him better. I don't see anyone disputing that. I'm saying they drafted a OL at 13, who yes made an impact. To pretend that didn't happen, as some sort of it can't happen, cuz it has to be all Tom Brady, for the sake of my argument, is denying reality friends..

Simply look what happened to Brady after the OL injuries the next year when he retired.

Why couldn't Brady transcend that to another playoff and/or Superbowl win with lesser talent? Or Mahomes? Or Brees? Or Stafford? Or...

You need both.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
lol, I would submit the above as a textbook case, of ppl coming up with an argument first, and fitting all facts to match it second. Which is doing it backwards btw. How else do you ignore Wirfs like he never happened? It would be like saying the Lions did nothing to dramatically upgrade their RB room, nevermind this Gibbs character..

so it's a thread of ppl with their mind made up, and bending all reality to their own presuppositions..

lol This is rich. Btw who do you think had a better year, Gibbs or Swift?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
That O line was good from 2020-2022 and then suddenly took a dive in 2023 after Tom retired. Are we supposed to believe that is just a coincidence?

Notice I'm not disputing the premise, that TB12 makes all around him better. I don't see anyone disputing that. I'm saying they drafted a OL at 13, who yes made an impact. To pretend that didn't happen, as some sort of it can't happen, cuz it has to be all Tom Brady, for the sake of my argument, is denying reality friends..

Simply look what happened to Brady after the OL injuries the next year when he retired. Why couldn't Brady transcend that to another playoff and/or Superbowl win.

You need both.

Tom Brady's sack% was the lowest it had been in Tampa in 2022.