49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Personally the formula is more of a conceptual philosophy to me. It tries to get to the point that its a *team game* not a individual positon game. A good team is composed of a good OLine, QB, etc... all the parts. A bad team is usually missing one or all the parts. Etc...

I'm not hung up on tiers so much as the idea behind it. The idea behind it is simple - you needs every positon performing well to have a win. Its not really more complicated than that. The tier thing is a game by game thing and tries to predict how a unit does vs its opposing matchup. Those change game to game.

It's a passing league. QB + OL is crucial in that formula. These are the elite DL these OL already sent home packing: Myles Garrett, Zadarius Smith, Aaron Donald, Micah Parsons, Demarcus Lawrence, Josh Sweat, Fletcher Cox, Hassan Reddick. And let's be honest, TJ Watt would have been sent home too even if healthy.

And the formula that worked for 7 straight years? While broken this year, you're still most likely going to end up with a tier 1 QB (MVP candidate) + Tier 2 (top 7) OL.

That's not exactly far off from the original formula and overall point. That's no different than this micro-crowd claiming an MVP Mahomes won a Superbowl with a tier 2 OL (not tier 1).

I agree that the CTE rules definitely have given the offense the upper hand. No more Slobberknocking hits etc... I don't know if the typical NFL game will ever cycle back to the *Defense wins Superbowl's* era. Not with CTE being a big issue with the current NFL and the various high school and college programs across the country. Nowadays, defensive play is a lot more like Basketball vs the old Dynasty slobbernocking football days of Ronnie Lott and Ken Norton.

Defensive play is now centered disrupting the timing and Rythm of the QB and Receiver. To the extent an offensive line can prevent a defense from disrupting that timing/Rythm, the offense should win vs a typical defense. Add in the mobility of a QB, and now the defense has to contend with scramble drills that eliminate even the timing/rythm disruptions a typically good defensive line generates. I think guys like Shanahan, McVAy, and LaFleaur will be winning a lot of games vs guys like Salah, Demeco (without Slowick) and Wilks (if he gets another HC job) from here on in, unless the rules change again.

Yup... overly protecting the QB inside and outside the pocket and protecting "defenseless" receivers has been paramount to being wide open on offense. Outside of the Ravens and us, every other team passes more then they run. WR's and pass catching TE's have taken over the league. Run blocking is archaic. All the rules stacked up against the defense to encourage wide open offenses. NFL wants entertainment. Passing is the most entertaining.

QB + D + Coach

Far better formula.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
https://www.eaglesmessageboard.com/topic/10846-oline-delusion/

Arguments from a parallel world.

Haha! I agree with them. I said earlier this year I thought Philly's OL dropped off a lot from last year. But then again, I don't watch every single snap of every team and stack them either. I'll leave that up to the actual SME's for that.

It could be injuries or the regression of QB play that can affect an OLine. Also If you give a QB 3 seconds in the pocket, but he can't find a receiver to throw to because the QB's lost his confidence in himself, that's not an OLIne problem. Conversely, he may be a good QB, but his current receivers can't break man coverage in 3 seconds that's another problem not on the OLine. In other words, it's hard to separate QB play from the rest of the team. It's a team game. You need good performance from the QB and the OLine to have a functional offense.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
https://www.eaglesmessageboard.com/topic/10846-oline-delusion/

Arguments from a parallel world.

Haha! I agree with them. I said earlier this year I thought Philly's OL dropped off a lot from last year. But then again, I don't watch every single snap of every team and stack them either. I'll leave that up to the actual SME's for that.

It could be injuries or the regression of QB play that can affect an OLine. Also If you give a QB 3 seconds in the pocket, but he can't find a receiver to throw to because the QB's lost his confidence in himself, that's not an OLIne problem. Conversely, he may be a good QB, but his current receivers can't break man coverage in 3 seconds that's another problem not on the OLine. In other words, it's hard to separate QB play from the rest of the team. It's a team game. You need good performance from the QB and the OLine to have a functional offense.

Yeah, it would be hilarious to see how PFF graded Phily's individual OL against Todd Bowles last night. You would absolutely need to be an expert to even begin breaking down that film and assigning grades to who was and who wasn't at fault along the OL with all the extra blitzers.

This man knew what was coming.

Tier 1 OLs can't figure out how to block a blitz?

Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, it would be hilarious to see how PFF graded Phily's individual OL against Todd Bowles last night. You would absolutely need to be an expert to even begin breaking down that film and assigning grades to who and who wasn't at fault along the OL with all the extra blitzers.

This man knew what was coming.

"Todd Bowles is going to blitz off the bus…the Eagles have not shown any ability to handle pressure…"@GregCosell already knows the Bucs game plan on defense tonight: pic.twitter.com/EC0WnzwhhY

— Ross Tucker Podcast (@RossTuckerPod) January 15, 2024

Been pretty well documented by the film hounds that the Eagles have scheme/system issues dealing with the blitz even before this season. Really bad this year though. Coaching issue more than a talent issue primarily.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
QB + D + Coach

Far better formula.

Lol it's f**king bizarro world. "I've been saying OL+QB combo for 7 years" . My ass. Just astounding to me that someone would just outright lie just so they can say they are right about something ,

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by libertyforever:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Since the formula is broken it should never be brought up again.

The formula is broken, so there can't be a winner now

The formula never determined a winner in the 1st place. QB, defense and HC are way better indicators of team success in the NFL than O line anyway.

This. It is, and always was, complete nonsense. No matter how hard someone tried to continually adjust it when it didn't fit to try and claim some nonexistent victory, it was always just a way to try and justify an OL is the only way narrative. Over the years it was sacks, then QB hits when sacks no longer were applicable, then it was pressures when the other 2 were no longer applicable, then it was non threatening pressures and now it's OL tiers….which has now shockingly morphed into OL + QB + DL etc etc and whatever other caveat one can throw in on the fly. This is just the newest fad that someone has latched onto that they think makes them look right,

Personally the formula is more of a conceptual philosophy to me. It tries to get to the point that its a *team game* not a individual positon game. A good team is composed of a good OLine, QB, etc... all the parts. A bad team is usually missing one or all the parts. Etc...

I'm not hung up on tiers so much as the idea behind it. The idea behind it is simple - you needs every positon performing well to have a win. Its not really more complicated than that. The tier thing is a game by game thing and tries to predict how a unit does vs its opposing matchup. Those change game to game.

lol, we've been saying this for 7 years. You need a good team all around, but you can't go into the playoffs with the QB being your weakest link

NC's take was OL is the end all be all.. which has now morphed into what we've been saying all this time. It's hilarious

I read NC's take as: a great offensive line will make a good QB great, whereas a bad offensive line will make a great QB look merely good. I Agree that you need an all around good team to win a Superbowl. To win regular season game, you can have some weaknesses (just look at Philadelphia). Good QB's (who are not great) have won the Superbowls. So it's not totally true that you need an elite QB to win Superbowl's.

I think the Bet between NC and the folks who disagree with him has sidetracked the X's and O's of this thread. That's OK. The back and forth was interesting to me - up to a point. Once it gets repetitive, then I basically tune that stuff out. But that's just me. Carry on.

That is not exactly his take. He is saying OL is far more important than other position groups, which I disagree.

Any great positional group can make other group look better.
A great receiving core can make a good QB great.
A great QB can make a good receiving core great.
A great pass rush can make good DB great.
A great DB can make a good pass rush great.

Where exactly do you get this? Honest question.

I've been saying the "combination" of a top OL paired with a top QB has CLEARLY been the best combination for winning Superbowls over the past 7 years in a passing league. I have never said, singularly, OL is 'the' most important over everything else, including QB.

We talk more about the OL because annually, it's the last position group to meet the gold standard here and it has been an annual issue; like the secondary and QB before Brock arrived from heaven.

There are other combinations over the past 10 years that have won Superbowls but they pale in comparison. In fact, if you could find a better recent combination, I'd love to read it but not one person has offered up one, ironically.

If you don't think this is a passing league and the combination of top QB + OL isn't critical to that, please explain. I'm all ears.

This response is funny. He says he's been saying whatever for 7 years.. which isn't true.

I and others have been saying if we had better QB play, we possibly could have at least #6 already, maybe #7 in 2021 (lol Vs Cinci SB) and maybe #8 2022 (injured in the NFCCG)

His argument back then, was it wasn't QB (which now he says it was, since you need BOTH). NC has been arguing tooth and nail that the only way to win a championship is having the #1 OL. It's the reason he gloats after we lose and bets against the 49ers before the season starts, because we don't have the #1OL

My argument which NC hates, is having an all around great team with great QB play. We don't need to be the best in every category, but being close to the top can give us great chances to win a SB.

Not sure why would anyone argue against that ?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
https://www.eaglesmessageboard.com/topic/10846-oline-delusion/

Arguments from a parallel world.

Haha! I agree with them. I said earlier this year I thought Philly's OL dropped off a lot from last year. But then again, I don't watch every single snap of every team and stack them either. I'll leave that up to the actual SME's for that.

The season isn't that long, but he's been saying this from earlier in the season... enough so that he would take Philly on a bet ?

but hey, he doesn't watch the games... but those Philly fans do and express themselves in that forum ^^

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
https://www.eaglesmessageboard.com/topic/10846-oline-delusion/

Arguments from a parallel world.

Haha! I agree with them. I said earlier this year I thought Philly's OL dropped off a lot from last year. But then again, I don't watch every single snap of every team and stack them either. I'll leave that up to the actual SME's for that.

The season isn't that long, but he's been saying this from earlier in the season... enough so that he would take Philly on a bet ?

but hey, he doesn't watch the games... but those Philly fans do and express themselves in that forum ^^

Oh now that PHI got their asses handed to them in the playoffs, he never thought they were a tier 1 O line this season? GTFOH! 🤣

Look at any ranking from pre season through the regular season and they have PHI ranked as the #1 O line.

You can never be wrong as long as you claim the SB winner has a tier 1 O line. I guess that means the SB winner also has a tier 1 WR corp, TE corp, RB corp, QB, DL, LB corp and DB's?

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, it would be hilarious to see how PFF graded Phily's individual OL against Todd Bowles last night. You would absolutely need to be an expert to even begin breaking down that film and assigning grades to who and who wasn't at fault along the OL with all the extra blitzers.

This man knew what was coming.

"Todd Bowles is going to blitz off the bus…the Eagles have not shown any ability to handle pressure…"@GregCosell already knows the Bucs game plan on defense tonight: pic.twitter.com/EC0WnzwhhY

— Ross Tucker Podcast (@RossTuckerPod) January 15, 2024

Been pretty well documented by the film hounds that the Eagles have scheme/system issues dealing with the blitz even before this season. Really bad this year though. Coaching issue more than a talent issue primarily.

That sounds about right.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by libertyforever:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Since the formula is broken it should never be brought up again.

The formula is broken, so there can't be a winner now

The formula never determined a winner in the 1st place. QB, defense and HC are way better indicators of team success in the NFL than O line anyway.

This. It is, and always was, complete nonsense. No matter how hard someone tried to continually adjust it when it didn't fit to try and claim some nonexistent victory, it was always just a way to try and justify an OL is the only way narrative. Over the years it was sacks, then QB hits when sacks no longer were applicable, then it was pressures when the other 2 were no longer applicable, then it was non threatening pressures and now it's OL tiers….which has now shockingly morphed into OL + QB + DL etc etc and whatever other caveat one can throw in on the fly. This is just the newest fad that someone has latched onto that they think makes them look right,

Personally the formula is more of a conceptual philosophy to me. It tries to get to the point that its a *team game* not a individual positon game. A good team is composed of a good OLine, QB, etc... all the parts. A bad team is usually missing one or all the parts. Etc...

I'm not hung up on tiers so much as the idea behind it. The idea behind it is simple - you needs every positon performing well to have a win. Its not really more complicated than that. The tier thing is a game by game thing and tries to predict how a unit does vs its opposing matchup. Those change game to game.

lol, we've been saying this for 7 years. You need a good team all around, but you can't go into the playoffs with the QB being your weakest link

NC's take was OL is the end all be all.. which has now morphed into what we've been saying all this time. It's hilarious

I read NC's take as: a great offensive line will make a good QB great, whereas a bad offensive line will make a great QB look merely good. I Agree that you need an all around good team to win a Superbowl. To win regular season game, you can have some weaknesses (just look at Philadelphia). Good QB's (who are not great) have won the Superbowls. So it's not totally true that you need an elite QB to win Superbowl's.

I think the Bet between NC and the folks who disagree with him has sidetracked the X's and O's of this thread. That's OK. The back and forth was interesting to me - up to a point. Once it gets repetitive, then I basically tune that stuff out. But that's just me. Carry on.

That is not exactly his take. He is saying OL is far more important than other position groups, which I disagree.

Any great positional group can make other group look better.
A great receiving core can make a good QB great.
A great QB can make a good receiving core great.
A great pass rush can make good DB great.
A great DB can make a good pass rush great.

Where exactly do you get this? Honest question.

I've been saying the "combination" of a top OL paired with a top QB has CLEARLY been the best combination for winning Superbowls over the past 7 years in a passing league. I have never said, singularly, OL is 'the' most important over everything else, including QB.

We talk more about the OL because annually, it's the last position group to meet the gold standard here and it has been an annual issue; like the secondary and QB before Brock arrived from heaven.

There are other combinations over the past 10 years that have won Superbowls but they pale in comparison. In fact, if you could find a better recent combination, I'd love to read it but not one person has offered up one, ironically.

If you don't think this is a passing league and the combination of top QB + OL isn't critical to that, please explain. I'm all ears.

This response is funny. He says he's been saying whatever for 7 years.. which isn't true.

I and others have been saying if we had better QB play, we possibly could have at least #6 already, maybe #7 in 2021 (lol Vs Cinci SB) and maybe #8 2022 (injured in the NFCCG)

His argument back then, was it wasn't QB (which now he says it was, since you need BOTH). NC has been arguing tooth and nail that the only way to win a championship is having the #1 OL. It's the reason he gloats after we lose and bets against the 49ers before the season starts, because we don't have the #1OL

My argument which NC hates, is having an all around great team with great QB play. We don't need to be the best in every category, but being close to the top can give us great chances to win a SB.

Not sure why would anyone argue against that ?

I agree.

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Oh now that PHI got their asses handed to them in the playoffs, he never thought they were a tier 1 O line this season? GTFOH! 🤣

Look at any ranking from pre season through the regular season and they have PHI ranked as the #1 O line.

You can never be wrong as long as you claim the SB winner has a tier 1 O line. I guess that means the SB winner also has a tier 1 WR corp, TE corp, RB corp, QB, DL, LB corp and DB's?

Well when he would say the OL wasn't super bowl caliber I'd ask what other positions also weren't and he basically said every unit once he was backed into the corner. So I'd imagine the reverse would be true that if you win every unit is suddenly sb caliber.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Oh now that PHI got their asses handed to them in the playoffs, he never thought they were a tier 1 O line this season? GTFOH! 🤣

Look at any ranking from pre season through the regular season and they have PHI ranked as the #1 O line.

You can never be wrong as long as you claim the SB winner has a tier 1 O line. I guess that means the SB winner also has a tier 1 WR corp, TE corp, RB corp, QB, DL, LB corp and DB's?

Well when he would say the OL wasn't super bowl caliber I'd ask what other positions also weren't and he basically said every unit once he was backed into the corner. So I'd imagine the reverse would be true that if you win every unit is suddenly sb caliber.

the problem wasnt the packers OL it was them not checking into a play to beat the blitz

no matter how good your oL is when you have more rushers than OL its not going to hold up the eagles had more log developing routes or deep routes when the were blitzing which is why they struggled

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Tier 1 OLs can't figure out how to block a blitz?

We will decide who the T1 Oline is after the Super Bowl clearly Eagles aren't a T1 Oline