Offseason Film analysis thread - Passing concepts

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:
I don't follow stories on QBs who attempt to change their mechanics very closely. Can you guys point me to a quarterback who, around the age of 27, was able to successfully and consistently implement some of the same corrections that Kap needs to make / is trying to make? I know Tebow has been unable to fix the flaws in his mechanics to the satisfaction of an NFL team, but I don't know what exactly he was working on.

Any success stories to make me optimistic that the improvements Kap is working on will stick?

didn't alex smith work on his mechanics w/ some qb guru in san diego in 2010 who had previously worked w/ brees, brady…isn't that the time around smith had a "breakout" year

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:
I don't follow stories on QBs who attempt to change their mechanics very closely. Can you guys point me to a quarterback who, around the age of 27, was able to successfully and consistently implement some of the same corrections that Kap needs to make / is trying to make? I know Tebow has been unable to fix the flaws in his mechanics to the satisfaction of an NFL team, but I don't know what exactly he was working on.

Any success stories to make me optimistic that the improvements Kap is working on will stick?

Steve Young would probably be the biggest success story out of That scenario. He was fairly older by the time he really got his mechanics, specifically WCO footwork down just right. Brad Johnson with the bus also comes to kind. After gruden arrived, his mechanics really tightened up. Jeff Garcia is another, his mechanics improved from when he failed to make a team through his time in the CFL.

Originally posted by thl408:
^^^


Nice example of a playaction drop, plant, and throw in a fluid succession of movements.

f**king beautiful.

look at the difference.



Kap is taking even longer and it's a THREE step drop while Rodgers is taking a FIVE step drop. no excuse as to why Kap is getting the ball out slower.

Originally posted by Mertonschickendance:

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:
I don't follow stories on QBs who attempt to change their mechanics very closely. Can you guys point me to a quarterback who, around the age of 27, was able to successfully and consistently implement some of the same corrections that Kap needs to make / is trying to make? I know Tebow has been unable to fix the flaws in his mechanics to the satisfaction of an NFL team, but I don't know what exactly he was working on.

Any success stories to make me optimistic that the improvements Kap is working on will stick?

didn't alex smith work on his mechanics w/ some qb guru in san diego in 2010 who had previously worked w/ brees, brady…isn't that the time around smith had a "breakout" year

2010 we started out 0-5 and finished 6-10.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:
I don't follow stories on QBs who attempt to change their mechanics very closely. Can you guys point me to a quarterback who, around the age of 27, was able to successfully and consistently implement some of the same corrections that Kap needs to make / is trying to make? I know Tebow has been unable to fix the flaws in his mechanics to the satisfaction of an NFL team, but I don't know what exactly he was working on.

Any success stories to make me optimistic that the improvements Kap is working on will stick?

Steve Young would probably be the biggest success story out of That scenario. He was fairly older by the time he really got his mechanics, specifically WCO footwork down just right. Brad Johnson with the bus also comes to kind. After gruden arrived, his mechanics really tightened up. Jeff Garcia is another, his mechanics improved from when he failed to make a team through his time in the CFL.

I always had the impression that Young's progression was primarily on the mental side of the game instead of the physical. His mechanics might not have been pretty, but I didn't think they were a limiting factor in his game. Interesting.

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:

I always had the impression that Young's progression was primarily on the mental side of the game instead of the physical. His mechanics might not have been pretty, but I didn't think they were a limiting factor in his game. Interesting.

I had always heard that Steve's biggest problem was footwork and his propensity to run before concepts developed. You always heard stories of the WR b***hing because of Steve's willingness to scramble as opposed to working the concepts. It was an evolutionary process but 1987 Steve was a whole lot different than 1991 Steve and '91 Steve was different than when he reached his pinnacle in 1994. The shame of it is I think Steve had at least 2-3 more top echelon season before piece of s**t L.phillips missed that block in zona in 1999.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:
I always had the impression that Young's progression was primarily on the mental side of the game instead of the physical. His mechanics might not have been pretty, but I didn't think they were a limiting factor in his game. Interesting.

I had always heard that Steve's biggest problem was footwork and his propensity to run before concepts developed. You always heard stories of the WR b***hing because of Steve's willingness to scramble as opposed to working the concepts. It was an evolutionary process but 1987 Steve was a whole lot different than 1991 Steve and '91 Steve was different than when he reached his pinnacle in 1994. The shame of it is I think Steve had at least 2-3 more top echelon season before piece of s**t L.phillips missed that block in zona in 1999.

Agreed. I guess I focused on his propensity to run (which fits squarely in the "mental game" category to me) more than the shortcomings in his footwork. Probably because I don't know enough about QB mechanics to appreciate the impact. Interesting parallels here. Thanks guys.

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:

Agreed. I guess I focused on his propensity to run (which fits squarely in the "mental game" category to me) more than the shortcomings in his footwork. Probably because I don't know enough about QB mechanics to appreciate the impact. Interesting parallels here. Thanks guys.

I think another thing that Steve was battling was his time in Tampa. He got the s**t knocked out of him during his tenure. That amount of punishment always rattles qbs and makes them develop bad habits. I think a lot of Steve's scramble/running problems was due to the fact he was running for his life on a very bad football team in '85 & '86.

Thanks again for this thread jd and thl.

Do you guys feel the lions share of work needs to be on the physical side or mental side for kap?

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by defenderDX:
f**king beautiful.

look at the difference.



Kap is taking even longer and it's a THREE step drop while Rodgers is taking a FIVE step drop. no excuse as to why Kap is getting the ball out slower.

I don't know looks like someone isn't teaching fundamentals really.

To me it just looks like he doesn't trust himself. That extra hesitation seems like he is thinking, "make sure your read is correct so you don't make a mistake; you can always rifle it in later." I'm really hoping all the offseason work helped him gain some confidence so he trusts his reads and can release the ball on time with some touch.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:
Agreed. I guess I focused on his propensity to run (which fits squarely in the "mental game" category to me) more than the shortcomings in his footwork. Probably because I don't know enough about QB mechanics to appreciate the impact. Interesting parallels here. Thanks guys.

I think another thing that Steve was battling was his time in Tampa. He got the s**t knocked out of him during his tenure. That amount of punishment always rattles qbs and makes them develop bad habits. I think a lot of Steve's scramble/running problems was due to the fact he was running for his life on a very bad football team in '85 & '86.

It was mainly his development in his footwork mechanics. Steve's admitted that his footwork was terrible when he got to San Fran and he didn't know how to move from read 1-4 with his footwork, so he'd take off. He said Holmgren would always tell him, "the lineman don't know where you are when you do that, Steve". Shanahan used to make Young watch games, blocking out everything but his feet, so he'd have to watch games through just looking at his footwork. Footwork is so pivotal in the WCO your QB has to have that down.

Someone above also stated that it didn't seem like he was being "taught" footwork - you can't always put that on the coach - cause it's an unknown. It's just as likely that CK never worked on it in his own time. Shanahan, the same guy who taught Steve Young and made Jake Plummer a solid QB, struggled to teach RG3 footwork. I've watched the games of RG3, dude's footwork is terrible.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Thanks again for this thread jd and thl.

Do you guys feel the lions share of work needs to be on the physical side or mental side for kap?

Well, I can't speak for Thl, but, for me, it's both. Not as much in the physical side for Kap in that he's got physical shortcomings. I think of it in the muscle memory of the rhythm and timing of footwork and body positioning. He's supremely physically gifted, but, the muscle memory of constant repetition of good habits don't seem to be there.

It's kind of cart a horse - you have to have the mental side down before your footwork mechanics through progressions matter - but, you have to have your footwork down to execute the progressions that the mind is going through.

I've said it before in other film threads, but, I don't see his weaknesses and deficiencies as major abnormalities or things that he simply doesn't know how to do - it seems like he hasn't done it enough to where things are reflexive for him. His progressions are slow - but at least he's looking for them. In theory, with more repetition those things will speed up.

When he snarked at that guy on twitter, he quipped about knowing everyone's assignments against every type of defensive coverage - well, it's not as much about knowing the information alone, it's how quickly can you process that information and make your reflexive movements that correlate to that information.

What I'm saying is, last year, it looked like he was developing concepts and plays that he'd never run before against defenses he'd never seen before or there were times when he didn't run it versus specific looks enough. With the CBA, the majority of time when you have to really work on those things has been shortened dramatically. Coaches used to work with their QB's all offseason with this stuff - now, they get a few weeks, really. That's not enough time. What CK did this year really gave me a lot more respect for him. He invested his own money, his own time into improving himself as a QB, not as a football player.

Originally posted by MTninerfan:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by defenderDX:
f**king beautiful.

look at the difference.



Kap is taking even longer and it's a THREE step drop while Rodgers is taking a FIVE step drop. no excuse as to why Kap is getting the ball out slower.

I don't know looks like someone isn't teaching fundamentals really.

To me it just looks like he doesn't trust himself. That extra hesitation seems like he is thinking, "make sure your read is correct so you don't make a mistake; you can always rifle it in later." I'm really hoping all the offseason work helped him gain some confidence so he trusts his reads and can release the ball on time with some touch.

yeah. it's that PLUS his lack of mechanics in footwork. who knows what they were teaching him

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:

Agreed. I guess I focused on his propensity to run (which fits squarely in the "mental game" category to me) more than the shortcomings in his footwork. Probably because I don't know enough about QB mechanics to appreciate the impact. Interesting parallels here. Thanks guys.

I think another thing that Steve was battling was his time in Tampa. He got the s**t knocked out of him during his tenure. That amount of punishment always rattles qbs and makes them develop bad habits. I think a lot of Steve's scramble/running problems was due to the fact he was running for his life on a very bad football team in '85 & '86.

It was mainly his development in his footwork mechanics. Steve's admitted that his footwork was terrible when he got to San Fran and he didn't know how to move from read 1-4 with his footwork, so he'd take off. He said Holmgren would always tell him, "the lineman don't know where you are when you do that, Steve". Shanahan used to make Young watch games, blocking out everything but his feet, so he'd have to watch games through just looking at his footwork. Footwork is so pivotal in the WCO your QB has to have that down.

Someone above also stated that it didn't seem like he was being "taught" footwork - you can't always put that on the coach - cause it's an unknown. It's just as likely that CK never worked on it in his own time. Shanahan, the same guy who taught Steve Young and made Jake Plummer a solid QB, struggled to teach RG3 footwork. I've watched the games of RG3, dude's footwork is terrible.

As far as coaches and footwork with guys like RG3, I think it might have something to do with the 95+% of the time shotgun spread offenses. Footwork is just deemphasised because usually those offenses either get the first option schemed open or run the option from it.

Originally posted by defenderDX:

f**king beautiful.

look at the difference.



Kap is taking even longer and it's a THREE step drop while Rodgers is taking a FIVE step drop. no excuse as to why Kap is getting the ball out slower.

Funny thing to point out is there is no way AR even knew if the receiver was open or not. He drops back and throws. Couldn't That have been an int just as easily?