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Offseason Film analysis thread - Passing concepts

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  • thl408
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Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Thanks again for this thread jd and thl.

Do you guys feel the lions share of work needs to be on the physical side or mental side for kap?

Well, I can't speak for Thl, but, for me, it's both. Not as much in the physical side for Kap in that he's got physical shortcomings. I think of it in the muscle memory of the rhythm and timing of footwork and body positioning. He's supremely physically gifted, but, the muscle memory of constant repetition of good habits don't seem to be there.

It's kind of cart a horse - you have to have the mental side down before your footwork mechanics through progressions matter - but, you have to have your footwork down to execute the progressions that the mind is going through.

I've said it before in other film threads, but, I don't see his weaknesses and deficiencies as major abnormalities or things that he simply doesn't know how to do - it seems like he hasn't done it enough to where things are reflexive for him. His progressions are slow - but at least he's looking for them. In theory, with more repetition those things will speed up.

When he snarked at that guy on twitter, he quipped about knowing everyone's assignments against every type of defensive coverage - well, it's not as much about knowing the information alone, it's how quickly can you process that information and make your reflexive movements that correlate to that information.

What I'm saying is, last year, it looked like he was developing concepts and plays that he'd never run before against defenses he'd never seen before or there were times when he didn't run it versus specific looks enough. With the CBA, the majority of time when you have to really work on those things has been shortened dramatically. Coaches used to work with their QB's all offseason with this stuff - now, they get a few weeks, really. That's not enough time. What CK did this year really gave me a lot more respect for him. He invested his own money, his own time into improving himself as a QB, not as a football player.

I think the lion's share of the work needs to be done on the mental side. Specifically, he needs work/repetition on zone busting concepts because that's what he is facing the majority of the time nowadays. It's understanding, with confidence, which routes will be open before they become open. This would allow him to throw to an open area, then have the ball and the WR get to that area at the same time. Waiting until the WR gets to the open area, then making the throw is not good enough.

It's a consistency issue, not an inability issue. He will face more zone coverage than he will man coverage. I think this is currently "the book" on Kap. Just a quick snapshot of how he does against a team that goes primarily man coverage - ARI. Here are his passer ratings versus ARI for his career:
114
93
111
103
108

That's pretty badass against a good defense. Man coverage is generally easier to read - see the back of a CB's jersey, it's man coverage. So I agree it's both mental and physical, but if the question is 'which should be the lion's share?", for me, it's mental.
Originally posted by Niners816:
As far as coaches and footwork with guys like RG3, I think it might have something to do with the 95+% of the time shotgun spread offenses. Footwork is just deemphasised because usually those offenses either get the first option schemed open or run the option from it.

Very true. You see a lot of guys come out from spread, shotgun offenses and the teams that try and tailor their NFL offense around that, can usually have decent success for maybe 2 years - at most. Then you'll see all those guys hit walls(RG3, Cam Newton, Johnny Manziel, Geno Smith). Then you look at guys that come out of pro-style offenses and they have continued success(Andrew Luck, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco) those are the most recent names you can put in there.

That's why I don't really like to hear people talk about how Kaep - "just needs to go out and be Kaep". Well, he has to learn to do the things it takes to be an NFL QB. If not, he'll be a flash in the pan guy who struggles to find long term success.
Originally posted by jeepzilla:
Originally posted by defenderDX:
f**king beautiful.

look at the difference.



Kap is taking even longer and it's a THREE step drop while Rodgers is taking a FIVE step drop. no excuse as to why Kap is getting the ball out slower.

Funny thing to point out is there is no way AR even knew if the receiver was open or not. He drops back and throws. Couldn't That have been an int just as easily?
It was all based off his pre-snap read and scouting of the defense. Seattle doesn't mix things up a whole lot. They'll pretty much show you zone or man. That, coupled with the look of the safeties whoed is was an 8 man cover 3 zone- that's what makes Rodgers such a dangerous QB, he doesn't have to stare at a receiver in zone coverage to know that guys going to be open. He knows from his defensive keys, that the outside curl was going to be open, that's the level CK has to get to - that's the place where the elite QB's get to. So, there's not hesitation all the way through his footwork to mechanics.
Originally posted by jeepzilla:
Originally posted by defenderDX:
f**king beautiful.

look at the difference.



Kap is taking even longer and it's a THREE step drop while Rodgers is taking a FIVE step drop. no excuse as to why Kap is getting the ball out slower.

Funny thing to point out is there is no way AR even knew if the receiver was open or not. He drops back and throws. Couldn't That have been an int just as easily?

nah Rodgers had some idea. with the idea of what Seattle was doing pre snap, the play call, route combination, etc. it was clearly a timing based throw so once he hit his back foot that ball was supposed to be out. probably figured out where to go pre snap.
  • thl408
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Originally posted by jeepzilla:
Originally posted by defenderDX:
f**king beautiful.

look at the difference.



Kap is taking even longer and it's a THREE step drop while Rodgers is taking a FIVE step drop. no excuse as to why Kap is getting the ball out slower.

Funny thing to point out is there is no way AR even knew if the receiver was open or not. He drops back and throws. Couldn't That have been an int just as easily?
He did take a quick glance to confirm, but he knew what he was facing. It's a standard coverage that SEA uses versus a 3x1 set with the backside WR split outside the numbers. It's cover3 with the backside CB locked up in man coverage (vs Nelson).

AAron takes a peek.


Started his windup. Two things give AAron the confidence to quickly make this throw. The threat that Nelson can go vertical, which gets the CB running full speed up the field, and seeing the back of the jersey of the CB - man coverage, the CB won't see the throw coming. As long as he throws it before Nelson makes his break, and it's well placed, the pass is safe.


Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by jeepzilla:
Originally posted by defenderDX:
f**king beautiful.

look at the difference.



Kap is taking even longer and it's a THREE step drop while Rodgers is taking a FIVE step drop. no excuse as to why Kap is getting the ball out slower.

Funny thing to point out is there is no way AR even knew if the receiver was open or not. He drops back and throws. Couldn't That have been an int just as easily?
He did take a quick glance to confirm, but he knew what he was facing. It's a standard coverage that SEA uses versus a 3x1 set with the backside WR split outside the numbers. It's cover3 with the backside CB locked up in man coverage (vs Nelson).

AAron takes a peek.


Started his windup. Two things give AAron the confidence to quickly make this throw. The threat that Nelson can go vertical, which gets the CB running full speed up the field, and seeing the back of the jersey of the CB - man coverage, the CB won't see the throw coming. As long as he throws it before Nelson makes his break, and its well placed, the pass is safe.



It's a prime example of great QB play. You see how quickly, efficiently and effectively he gets to the 1 receiver that was open on the play.
Originally posted by jeepzilla:
Originally posted by defenderDX:
f**king beautiful.

look at the difference.



Kap is taking even longer and it's a THREE step drop while Rodgers is taking a FIVE step drop. no excuse as to why Kap is getting the ball out slower.

Funny thing to point out is there is no way AR even knew if the receiver was open or not. He drops back and throws. Couldn't That have been an int just as easily?

He is reading the D as he drops back and already knows where his guys are.

All has to do is see coverage, make a snap second decision and fire.

That is what seperates the good from the great. The ones who can consistsntly process everything amd make a strong accurate throw are the HOFs.

Kap can't do that consistantly at a high level yet. Thats why you see him scramble when there is a pocket, force throws, or stick to one side of the field only.

This comes with experience.
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Very true. You see a lot of guys come out from spread, shotgun offenses and the teams that try and tailor their NFL offense around that, can usually have decent success for maybe 2 years - at most. Then you'll see all those guys hit walls(RG3, Cam Newton, Johnny Manziel, Geno Smith). Then you look at guys that come out of pro-style offenses and they have continued success(Andrew Luck, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco) those are the most recent names you can put in there.

That's why I don't really like to hear people talk about how Kaep - "just needs to go out and be Kaep". Well, he has to learn to do the things it takes to be an NFL QB. If not, he'll be a flash in the pan guy who struggles to find long term success.

Joe Flacco played in a shotgun spread offense at Delaware.
Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Joe Flacco played in a shotgun spread offense at Delaware.

I stand corrected, my memory was off on that one
I really like the analysis. But I feel like some of you guys are expecting Kaep to be one day like Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady.

not gonna happen, lol

I think Ben Rothlesberger is his ceiling, which is still pretty damn good.
  • thl408
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jonnydel, do you plan on covering the Levels concept? I saw you categorized it in the OP as a concept he struggled with. I don't recall him targeting the Levels concept very much. I know the 49ers ran it, just not Kap targeting it.
  • thl408
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Originally posted by verb1der:
I really like the analysis. But I feel like some of you guys are expecting Kaep to be one day like Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady.

not gonna happen, lol

I think Ben Rothlesberger is his ceiling, which is still pretty damn good.

I like that comparison. Especially when Kap's legs slow down. He can still be very elusive and tough to bring down, a la Ben. I consider Ben a top 5 QB so this is in no way a knock.
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by verb1der:
I really like the analysis. But I feel like some of you guys are expecting Kaep to be one day like Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady.

not gonna happen, lol

I think Ben Rothlesberger is his ceiling, which is still pretty damn good.

I like that comparison. Especially when Kap's legs slow down. He can still be very elusive and tough to bring down, a la Ben. I consider Ben a top 5 QB so this is in no way a knock.

Exactly!

I feel like his end game will be a QB who can extend plays and make crazy things happen (like Ben) and that he's never going to be on that level of passing like the Bradys and Rodgers, because his physical skills will always outweigh his mental skills.
I think Kap is going to create a new category of Quarterback starting this season.
I think a perfect storm is coming. Geep with concepts and adjustments. Logan drilling every important thing he's learned this offseason in his head starting this month all the way to the season and an actual mix of weapons that pose a threat on every level instead of having a group that if we're being honest could really be herded into the same areas with no worry of being beat over the top.
Originally posted by jonesadrian:
I think Kap is going to create a new category of Quarterback starting this season.
I think a perfect 7STORM is coming. Geep with concepts and adjustments. Logan drilling every important thing he's learned this offseason in his head starting this month all the way to the season and an actual mix of weapons that pose a threat on every level instead of having a group that if we're being honest could really be herded into the same areas with no worry of being beat over the top.

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