Offseason Film analysis thread - Passing concepts

Originally posted by thl408:
Nice find 816. Notice in those plays the split backfield, which gives the RB a head start on the flare outs. I wonder if Geep will re-introduce that. HaRo used it in 2011, but for whatever reason stopped doing it.

Oh for the LOVE of God...please!

This is how a quick flare out can affect other things.
Versus cover3. If Bush gets just two catches on flares per game and puts that on tape, then opposing defenses will have to start respecting it.

JD's screenshots from the NYG game film thread.



Notice the weakside curl/flat defender follow the FB to the flat, which opens up the throwing lane to the slant. NYG defense, not good. Good defenses understand the bigger threat - the slant behind them, and will be coached not to respect the flat so much, until they actually need to.

Originally posted by Niners816:


I would love for the above play/concept to be installed. As with every concept, it can be wrapped up in multiple formation. With the old hammer plays I love that it was essentially "Texas" concept and the "drive" concept combined. It creates a trail type play. I've paid pretty close attention to the plays presented by both Thl & Johnny and do not recall seeing this beauty at all.

I haven't seen it yet in any of the film I've watched - though, I'm trying to remember through about 400 passing plays.

Originally posted by thl408:
This is how a quick flare out can affect other things.
Versus cover3. If Bush gets just two catches on flares per game and puts that on tape, then opposing defenses will have to start respecting it.

JD's screenshots from the NYG game film thread.



Notice the weakside curl/flat defender follow the FB to the flat, which opens up the throwing lane to the slant. NYG defense, not good. Good defenses understand the bigger threat - the slant behind them, and will be coached not to respect the flat so much, until they actually need to.

Simple QB coaching here as well could be to: 1) ID pre-snap potential pressure and check to that RB in the flat right away (i.e. pressure beater) and 2) location of the throw to the RB can "lead" the RB on his current route or up inside depending on the defenders angle (i.e. the little things)

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Here's an example of CK's struggles in in the "smash" concept.


This was late in the 1st Sea game, Sherman's 2nd INT - it was a gift from CK to seal the game. I really like the design of this play, it gives CK 2 concepts in 1 to work. He gets 2 curls along with the inside corner route to work a smash concept with a horizontal curls stretch added in. On these plays you should always be "alert" for the corner route against man-coverage. You see it's man coverage pre-snap based off of Dick's alignment. He's in press, squared up on the receiver, this means man coverage - along with the alignment of the LB's. They're going to "Spy" CK as well.


You see just after the snap how the corner route has an advantage. VD's working against Chancellor and Chancellor's in a tough spot having to defend both the mid-in and corner routes.


an aside - If Ck was deep in his film study, he would've seen what I've seen from Dick Sherman - that is, in man coverage, Sherman's COD isn't great. He's very susceptible to curls in man coverage. The one route you don't throw against Sherman in man coverage is the streak.... You see here how it held true, Johnson is able to get decent seperation on Sherman and is turned completely around, ready for a ball while Sherman is still face the other way....

anyhoo, you see how Ck has a nice pocket to step up in to. Staley did what he should, he took the speed rush upfield past the QB. Davis loses Chancellor with a nifty in/out move.


CK has a nice pocket and Davis has lost his man towards the corner, but, instead, he's fleeing the pocket. also, by now, Sherman's ready to drive on the curl route that CK is bailing out towards.


Davis beat Chancellor so bad that he fell down. VD probably goes in for a TD if CK stayed in the pocket and worked the play. Instead, he bails out to the opposite side with the "spy" waiting for him. I've omitted the last part of the play as it can be disturbing for some viewers. But, CK basically throws the ball straight at Sherman.

Thanks for the cut ups but I think some of your comments are a bit presumptuous.Still shots in here kind of taint the play.

If Kap isn't moving towards Sherman's side I'm not sure Davis beats Chancellor so easily. Also in that 3rd pic where you say he should've thrown to Stevie when he had Sherman in a bad spot it's hard to say what Kap is looking at and certainly his mechanics would've been quite out of whack if he threw right then and there. Sherman may not have the quickest change of direction but it's not as cut and dry imo to say Kap could've looked there adjusted his stance and made a good throw there before Sherman got to that spot.

There's no question Kap needs to make better decisions in these situations but I just don't think some of these statements are so cut and dry based on still shots.

Well, with my mac, I can't really do GIF's but, Davis beat chancellor on a little in/out move - as I mentioned. It had nothing to do with where Kap was going as, in man-coverage with a spy, the defenders will be watching their man almost exclusively. Also, when a defense presents man-coverage, you want to throw the ball to the corner route as it has a high probability of beating the man coverage.

If you don't want to take my word for it:
"The smash concept is a great concept vs. cover 1 because the FS is in the middle of the field and will have a difficult time getting over the top of the corner route to help out. Defensive coaches teach man technique corners to play inside leverage to take away the inside breaking routes, so that leaves them susceptible to sideline breaking routs such as corners (also known as a flag route) and comebacks. The corners can either be ran by #1 with a reduced split or by a #2 or #3 receiver, depending on the best matchup. You can do what you want with the receivers not running the corner.

http://movethemchains.blogspot.com/2010/01/cover-1-and-cover-3-beaters.html

2nd - about the Sherman note. My point isn't that he should've been able to throw with whacky mechanics. My point was, it's about the pre-snap read. He had 2 routes that he could've chosen to defeat the man coverage. He had the corner route - on a 5 step drop with a hitch, or the curl route, which can be a 3 or 5 step drop. Based off the film I've seen from Sherman, I could have told you he was in man-coverage. He never presses up on the line, square to the receiver, unless he's in man-coverage. He'll often try and disguise his zone coverage as man until the last second, but, savvy QB's can pick up on it. When he's in man-coverage, he struggles against curl routes - it's just what I've seen. So, if CK was gonna hit the curl route, he has to adjust his drop and mechanics - he didn't. If he doesn't, he HAS to go to the corner route - which was open. Instead, he bailed out of the pocket early and into the "spy" and threw a pick on the play right to Sherman....Either way, he F'd up the play - it doesn't mean he's doomed to failure for the rest of his career - but, the "smash" is a play that he struggles with..... a lot. Whereas, when AS was here, he ran it very well. It's a great play to work off of some other passing concepts - if he can master it.

I can't say for sure but this might not be a designed curl for SJ13.



When he was in Buffalo, a 3x1 set with SJ13 isolated meant he could run any route he wanted to get open. That's what I'm thinking here because they literally gave him 2/3rds of the field to work against Sherman and SJ13 runs the perfect route to defeat Sherman's leverage. That's why Kap's drop and the timing of the curl don't matchup.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Niners816:


I would love for the above play/concept to be installed. As with every concept, it can be wrapped up in multiple formation. With the old hammer plays I love that it was essentially "Texas" concept and the "drive" concept combined. It creates a trail type play. I've paid pretty close attention to the plays presented by both Thl & Johnny and do not recall seeing this beauty at all.

I haven't seen it yet in any of the film I've watched - though, I'm trying to remember through about 400 passing plays.

RB circle route in a Texas concept? No recollection of such in HaRo's offense. The GIF I posted earlier was I guess a variation of Texas, but since the seam route doesn't come from the same side of the formation that the RB circle route comes from, I don't consider it as such. Here's that play from earlier in this thread.





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This play is a designed throw to the RB circle route (same game). Watch as the other WRs begin to block and never turn around for a possible target.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Niners816:


I would love for the above play/concept to be installed. As with every concept, it can be wrapped up in multiple formation. With the old hammer plays I love that it was essentially "Texas" concept and the "drive" concept combined. It creates a trail type play. I've paid pretty close attention to the plays presented by both Thl & Johnny and do not recall seeing this beauty at all.

I haven't seen it yet in any of the film I've watched - though, I'm trying to remember through about 400 passing plays.

RB circle route in a Texas concept? No recollection of such in HaRo's offense. The GIF I posted earlier was I guess a variation of Texas, but since the seam route doesn't come from the same side of the formation that the RB circle route comes from, I don't consider it as such. Here's that play from earlier in this thread.





-----------------------------------------
This play is a designed throw to the RB circle route (same game). Watch as the other WRs begin to block and never turn around for a possible target.

By the design of the play I would say it's a man-coverage beater to the RB. It gets the RB to have the LB move one way and come back the other, while VD's route - if in man-coverage, would pull the other LB completely away from the play - hopefully along with the safety too. But, it works well against a cover 3 zone as well - just not as well.

Originally posted by All22:
I can't say for sure but this might not be a designed curl for SJ13.



When he was in Buffalo, a 3x1 set with SJ13 isolated meant he could run any route he wanted to get open. That's what I'm thinking here because they literally gave him 2/3rds of the field to work against Sherman and SJ13 runs the perfect route to defeat Sherman's leverage. That's why Kap's drop and the timing of the curl don't matchup.

I'd be really surprised if it was an option route or anything other than a designed route.

With the play in question - what you see is a smash concept with a triangle added in. So, you have a good option against any variance of cover 2 zone or cover 3 zone. Stevie's backside route gives a nice option against cover 1 or cover 0 as a hot route while also keeping his man from going anywhere towards the other possible receivers. In the WCO you don't see sight adjusted routes - what you see are some "option" type routes that adjust the specific route just slightly. For example, sometimes you'll see a "Y" with a middle curl with the option for middle in - but, if you read the description of that play or the specific instructions throughout the playbook, he's not looking to cross the field completely, it's really just moving the Y a few feet more over middle. So, it's almost like the same route, just adjusted slightly against specific coverages. Sight adjusted routes are plays where you'll have completely different routes depending on coverage. Where a receiver might run a post or short curl or streak depending on coverage.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Niners816:

I would love for the above play/concept to be installed. As with every concept, it can be wrapped up in multiple formation. With the old hammer plays I love that it was essentially "Texas" concept and the "drive" concept combined. It creates a trail type play. I've paid pretty close attention to the plays presented by both Thl & Johnny and do not recall seeing this beauty at all.

I haven't seen it yet in any of the film I've watched - though, I'm trying to remember through about 400 passing plays.

RB circle route in a Texas concept? No recollection of such in HaRo's offense. The GIF I posted earlier was I guess a variation of Texas, but since the seam route doesn't come from the same side of the formation that the RB circle route comes from, I don't consider it as such. Here's that play from earlier in this thread.





-----------------------------------------
This play is a designed throw to the RB circle route (same game). Watch as the other WRs begin to block and never turn around for a possible target.

By the design of the play I would say it's a man-coverage beater to the RB. It gets the RB to have the LB move one way and come back the other, while VD's route - if in man-coverage, would pull the other LB completely away from the play - hopefully along with the safety too. But, it works well against a cover 3 zone as well - just not as well.

What I love specifically about the hammer play is how it combines the best of both the Texas and drive concepts. I also like how it has 2 "quick" reads to either the back before he slants or the WR real early in the drag.

Just so much good stuff going on. Just think they spy kap, you have a drag crossing the spy and a Texas coming behind. Lots of moving parts, that have to be dealt with. Any indiscission on the defenses part leads to either two quick hitters or a bunch of traffic on a spy to which kap can take off.

Just in case anyone wants to see the Texas concept in playbook form, here it is from the 1985 niners playbook.

Here is more variations of hammer from the 1994 pass install. It just looks nasty regardless of formation.

Originally posted by thl408:
Nice find 816. Notice in those plays the split backfield, which gives the RB a head start on the flare outs. I wonder if Geep will re-introduce that. HaRo used it in 2011, but for whatever reason stopped doing it.

Because of the read option phenomenon/excitement?

Originally posted by thl408:


Notice the weakside curl/flat defender follow the FB to the flat, which opens up the throwing lane to the slant. NYG defense, not good. Good defenses understand the bigger threat - the slant behind them, and will be coached not to respect the flat so much, until they actually need to.

Just a TERRIBLE angle taken by the Safety.

Originally posted by Niners816:


Here is more variations of hammer from the 1994 pass install. It just looks nasty regardless of formation.

It looks this when Roman present it to the offensive players

Originally posted by defenderDX:
Just a TERRIBLE angle taken by the Safety.

It is - but, I showed it in the Giants thread, we set that shallow post up very well. We ran a couple deeper post routes at the FS before this which set up this play. So, he was expecting the post route 4 yards deeper than this one ended up being.