There are 400 users in the forums

Offseason Film analysis thread - Passing concepts

Shop Find 49ers gear online
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by spizzy:
Originally posted by Niners816:
Its pretty good with the depth of playbooks. The thing with madden is, it can play as realistic as you want it. Supposedly they have a guy that designs plays based on teams films. For example, "Vernon post"'from the 2011 divisional game is in the game. Madden really is the only game that I still play. It's fun to knock out a couple of games during the course of the season. Also, with the create-a-playbook I can make my perfect WCO playbook.

Lol really? I've never seen Vernon post in the niners playbook. What is it called?

It sucks that that play is not shown in the all22 film on NFL Rewind. The NFL film crew messed up when it cut the film and that play is omitted. It completely skips over that play when watching the coaches film.
http://www.49ers.com/video/videos/Anatomy-of-a-Play-Vernon-Post/10df3a2d-c978-4a1c-a7d3-4074382a7327

Somehow, NFL network got the flm - it's very similar to a sucker concept with a post instead of a square in. They knew they could hit the post because Roman Harper was scouted on film as playing 2-3 yards deep in the endzone.

Yea it's definitely a sucker concepts. I've heard it was Geep Cryst that designed/installed this play.
  • All22
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,614
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by thl408:
You think this is a %&*#@%ing game?

No but seriously, are there any passing concepts that exist in real life that don't exist in Madden? I ask because I don't play Madden.

Its pretty good with the depth of playbooks. The thing with madden is, it can play as realistic as you want it. Supposedly they have a guy that designs plays based on teams films. For example, "Vernon post"'from the 2011 divisional game is in the game. Madden really is the only game that I still play. It's fun to knock out a couple of games during the course of the season. Also, with the create-a-playbook I can make my perfect WCO playbook.

There aren't any packaged plays in Madden. Hopefully they put that in for next year.

IMO the best Madden playbook is the AirRaid1 playbook. Download it from the community. 4-5 plays per formation, all the formations have the same personnel (1 back, 3WR, 1TE) so the entire playbook is available to you while running no huddle. Customize it with some read-option and inside/outside zone plays.
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Well - that's a pretty loaded question for the zone haha! I think there are a number of reasons and I'll start with my list - I know it's not going to please everyone - but, it's just my opinion.

1. Poor team chemistry - I saw a lot of lacking in execution throughout the team. It was like everyone was just a step off here and there in a lot of what we did - especially in the run game. Power run schemes require the lineman to be VERY precise in their footwork and timing of the pulls and combo blocks - we didn't do well with that all year. We also struggled in finding good timing in our passing offense. The WCO if very much a timing offense and it all starts with the QB's footwork. There's teh 3 step drop, 5 step drop, 5 step with a hitch, 7 step, step with a hitch, rollout - all of which are designed to nail down the timing so that when the Qb hit's that last step, he's driving on the throw. Receivers have to be exactly where they're supposed to be and the QB has to have gotten through his progression to know exactly where to throw the ball. We didn't have that this year. There were times when CK hit his last step and the receivers - for one reason or another, weren't to their spots yet. Other times, he hit his last step and hadn't decided where to throw, so his throw was off target cause it threw his whole mechanics off a bit.
2. Lack of cohesion in the personnel:
Our most success in the passing game came mostly out of horizontal stretch passing or vertical and horizontal stretch passing. Vertical stretch passing - not so much. With a power run game - it lends to a vertical passing game, ZBS lends itself to horizontal passing. Our lineman were much better suited to a power run game yet our receivers were much more suited to a horizontal, RAC offense. Not sure where the blame lies for that. I'd say it's both on the coach and the GM and really on the two not working well together to build a team that fits the system.(I.E. Bill Walsh, Bill Bellichick, Tom Landry).
3. I think there's a 3-way tie for 3rd: CK's growth - or lack-there-of in his progression passing, full on potato play calling at times, poor line protection. I think all those things were about equal.

What we can do to fix this problems: What CK did this offseason by going and training with football guys and trying to learn more about football - like Peyton Manning does in the offseason and not trying to shave .01 off his 40 yard dash with Olympic sprinters.

Attaining a true SE or "X" receiver to aid a vertical passing game and give CK a viable 1-1 deep threat - which we did via TS.

Better line protection - well, we have a new O-line coach, other than that, it's hard to say that we'll be able to "upgrade" the line. I have a hard time seeing us get a better guard than Iupati - although I know several around here weren't that high on him, he was all-pro for a reason. I'm not a big fan of A. Davis in pass pro - so, unless he's magically learned how to get quicker feet, I'm not super hopeful here. To me, they should've given the extension to Iupati, not A. Davis - just my opinion though.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

Thanks jonnydel:
When I looked at games it seemed to me that everyone was out of sync especially in the second half. I appreciate your input and hopefully we will get some of these things smoothed out.
Originally posted by BodhiPaddlesOut:
jonnhydel, do you think there was a struggle between to FO and coaching staff and going to a horizontal/vertical passing scheme? Or was it simply deficiencies in personnel to really dedicate to one?

well, in theory, you'd like to be versatile enough to be able to run pretty much any scheme. I would say the 94 niners were that to a T. They could do power runs or zone runs with their backs, they had the vertical attack and horizontal attack and were very, very good in the triangle schemes of vertical and horizontal combined- it's why that offense was so potent and so lethal. I think the addition of a true SE is absolutely key along with the whole offense finding it's rhythm. The WCO is so predicated on timing and rhythm that if the offense - which starts with the QB, has to have it's rhythm. It was like we never got in rhythm the entire year.

I think there was a disconnect between the FO and coaching in staff in that, to me, it doesn't appear that the communication was there for the exact type of players that were needed for the execution of the scheme. Either that, or the FO or coaching staff were at a disagreement on the value given to players.
Originally posted by jonnydel:
well, in theory, you'd like to be versatile enough to be able to run pretty much any scheme. I would say the 94 niners were that to a T. They could do power runs or zone runs with their backs, they had the vertical attack and horizontal attack and were very, very good in the triangle schemes of vertical and horizontal combined- it's why that offense was so potent and so lethal. I think the addition of a true SE is absolutely key along with the whole offense finding it's rhythm. The WCO is so predicated on timing and rhythm that if the offense - which starts with the QB, has to have it's rhythm. It was like we never got in rhythm the entire year.

I think there was a disconnect between the FO and coaching in staff in that, to me, it doesn't appear that the communication was there for the exact type of players that were needed for the execution of the scheme. Either that, or the FO or coaching staff were at a disagreement on the value given to players.

The 1994 niners offense is the best offense I've every seen. As you mentioned, it checked all the boxes of what you would want a perfect offense to do. What Steve did after the philly game was truly awe-inspiring. Post philly in 1994, Steve was 70% 3200 yards 39 tds 5 ints and a qb rating of 124. The 1989 offense is the only one that comes and it is really close. However, I think the 1989 team was the better total team.
Originally posted by Ninefan56:
Thanks jonnydel:
When I looked at games it seemed to me that everyone was out of sync especially in the second half. I appreciate your input and hopefully we will get some of these things smoothed out.

The WCO offense is so predicated on timing and the ball coming out on time that rhythm and having your QB be in rhythm is so crucial.

Here's an example of how CK makes the right read, the right throw- it's accurate, but it's just a little bit late in coming out and the play isn't nearly as effective.



This play is either a spacing concept or curl flat. I say spacing because of how inside the curl is - what makes me question it is that Boldin doesn't look like he's running a "spot" route - which is usually the inside route on a spacing concept. It looks like he's running a mid-cross. Either way, it creates the same read on the key defender.

I've highlighted in grey the clues to Philly playing a cover 3 zone - you see the corners have opened up their hips inside, revealing an outside leverage - when corners are playing man, they usually play inside technique to use the sideline as their help defender. Also, you see the LB's are aligned straight up, not aligned with the TE and RB - they'd be dead to rights if it was man-coverage.

This reveals that the concept will work a vertical stretch on the underneath flat defender - who I've highlighted in yellow. He's the key defender on the play. CK is to read this defender, if he drops, he throws it underneath to VD, if he plays VD underneath - it's the curl - simple read. 3 step drop after a PA fake. With this play, the ball HAS to be out at the last step.


At the snap you see the key defender dropping back - CK should know right here that he's throwing to VD and get the ball out in rhythm on time to a receiver as Bill Walsh would say, "1 foot in front of the numbers". Brent Jones used to tear guys up with this route with his RAC.


you see how the key defender has dropped back, Ck has hit his back foot but the ball isn't out. If he throws it now, VD catches the ball in stride with room to turn and run up the sideline - he'd get 8-10 yards easy.


Instead, the ball is out a half second to a full second late - you see now where it's going to put VD at the catch, with a lot less room to run - the WCO offense is all about getting your athletes in space to run, when you haven't given them the ball with much space, not much they can do.


you see how close VD is to the sideline when he makes this catch, he should be 5 yards more inside, which gives him room to turn and run upfield. Now, pinned against the sideline he doesn't have anywhere to go, so it's only a 3 yard gain - should be 8-10.


Just highlighting how CK was reading the right defender, just got the ball out late - this is just after his last step, he should be in the middle of this throwing motion right now.

It may seem like splitting hairs or that VD wouldn't have done anything with it either way - not the point. The point is, the WCO is predicated on exact timing. Bill Walsh, Mike Holmgren, Mike Shanahan - all were VERY strict on exact timing in the offense. Only a half second can separate a successful play from an unsuccessful one.

If someone might help me out with a GIF on this play it might help illustrate the whole thing. It's the first offensive play of the niners in the Philly game.
[ Edited by jonnydel on Apr 14, 2015 at 10:36 AM ]
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 32,803
^^^^
You aren't splitting hairs at all. This is a poorly thrown ball that doesn't show up in the stat sheet as such. I think you described what needed to be done very well. Nice breakdown of how the fine details separate a nice play from an unsuccessful play. This is a WCO play all the way and Kap needs to deliver the ball on time and with good placement to allow RAC. I've seen him complete passes to drag routes where the WR has to slow down to catch the pass, which ruins any chance at RAC. Drag routes are all about RAC.



That extra bounce step is the hesitation that doesn't allow this play to achieve its maximum potential. I think a lot of it is trust in the concept. Is it safe to say he's never ran these concepts until the NFL? If that's the case, then it's a matter of repetition to build confidence that, based on his pre-snap reads, a certain route will be open. So his post snap confirmation is much quicker.
Originally posted by thl408:
^^^^
You aren't splitting hairs at all. This is a poorly thrown ball that doesn't show up in the stat sheet as such. I think you described what needed to be done very well. Nice breakdown of how the fine details separate a nice play from an unsuccessful play. This is a WCO play all the way and Kap needs to deliver the ball on time and with good placement to allow RAC. I've seen him complete passes to drag routes where the WR has to slow down to catch the pass, which ruins any chance at RAC. Drag routes are all about RAC.



That extra bounce step is the hesitation that doesn't allow this play to achieve its maximum potential. I think a lot of it is trust in the concept. Is it safe to say he's never ran these concepts until the NFL? If that's the case, then it's a matter of repetition to build confidence that, based on his pre-snap reads, a certain route will be open. So his post snap confirmation is much quicker.

look how "tall" he is standing too. that's not going to be the same either
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 32,803
Yeah, notice the narrow base and how he has to widen his stance, with a hop, as he starts his throwing motion. Supposedly that's changed. Something to look for next season.
Originally posted by thl408:
Yeah, notice the narrow base and how he has to widen his stance, with a hop, as he starts his throwing motion. Supposedly that's changed. Something to look for next season.

definitely a mechanical flaw I'm confident was ironed out.

  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 32,803
Originally posted by defenderDX:
Originally posted by thl408:
Yeah, notice the narrow base and how he has to widen his stance, with a hop, as he starts his throwing motion. Supposedly that's changed. Something to look for next season.

definitely a mechanical flaw I'm confident was ironed out.

That's probably exactly what that article (that you linked recently) was alluding to about standing too tall, with a narrow base, and how it's not the optimal throwing position. And on this particular play, getting the ball out just 1 tenth of a second earlier, is the difference between giving VD room to run up the sideline or not.
Originally posted by thl408:
^^^^
You aren't splitting hairs at all. This is a poorly thrown ball that doesn't show up in the stat sheet as such. I think you described what needed to be done very well. Nice breakdown of how the fine details separate a nice play from an unsuccessful play. This is a WCO play all the way and Kap needs to deliver the ball on time and with good placement to allow RAC. I've seen him complete passes to drag routes where the WR has to slow down to catch the pass, which ruins any chance at RAC. Drag routes are all about RAC.



That extra bounce step is the hesitation that doesn't allow this play to achieve its maximum potential. I think a lot of it is trust in the concept. Is it safe to say he's never ran these concepts until the NFL? If that's the case, then it's a matter of repetition to build confidence that, based on his pre-snap reads, a certain route will be open. So his post snap confirmation is much quicker.

That's the greatest thing about the WCO, when its humming and fully installed the progression/timing/footwork tell you exactly where the ball goes. The concepts are time-tested and have proven that they beat the coverages they are designed to. When run at its highest level it really is mechanical. While I'm somewhat sad that the odd we ever see a WCO system run like our dynasty days, I fully believe we have a QB that can be really damn good in an almost hybrid-like offense that has a lot of tried and true WCO concepts.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Apr 14, 2015 at 4:30 PM ]
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by defenderDX:
Originally posted by thl408:
Yeah, notice the narrow base and how he has to widen his stance, with a hop, as he starts his throwing motion. Supposedly that's changed. Something to look for next season.

definitely a mechanical flaw I'm confident was ironed out.

That's probably exactly what that article (that you linked recently) was alluding to about standing too tall, with a narrow base, and how it's not the optimal throwing position. And on this particular play, getting the ball out just 1 tenth of a second earlier, is the difference between giving VD room to run up the sideline or not.

yep. if you compare to how he dropped back in that game to what he'd been working on in that 10 week program






there's definitely a difference. Same drop too.(even though he's simulating it from under center) he doesn't take that extra hop to open up his base to make the throw
[ Edited by defenderDX on Apr 14, 2015 at 4:46 PM ]
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 32,803
I know jonnydel is tying concepts to how well, or not well, Kap was able to execute them, but I just want to touch on concepts in general. Here's a concept the 49ers were not able to hit much on last season. I have no percentage breakdown, but off the low number of long passes completed, I am assuming it was not run with much success. Although I can't recall how often it was run.

Concept: Double Posts : horizontal stretch at the safety level
The inside post route runs across the face of the key defender, in this particular case, the cover1 safety.

Here, VD is the inside Post, and Boldin is the outside Post.
Versus cover1 robber


The defender on VD bites hard on the playaction and is immediately burned. This puts stress on the deep safety (blue) as he now has to cover VD. This isn't going to happen all the time. So this example isn't the best due to the blown coverage, but the concept still plays out.


Let's imagine the defender on VD is somewhat trailing VD closely. He looks to have given up on the play. As VD flashes across the face of the deep safety, the safety now has a choice to make. Does he provide over the top help on VD, or stay in position in the middle of the field? This is the horizontal stretch taking place.
Here, because VD's defender is burned so badly, the safety's choice is easy - provide help on VD.


The key defender is the safety. If he stays in the middle of the field and doesn't respond to the inside Post breaking across his face, then target the inside Post.

In this example, by providing help on VD (inside Post), the middle of the field is now open for Boldin to work his Post route. The correct throw is to the outside Post.


Now imagine VD and Torrey executing this concept. Some of us have mentioned Kap's trouble with placing an arc on a deep ball to drop in the pass over a defender. This is a non-issue when the WR running a Post route because of the inward breaking of the Post route.. Here, Kap hits Boldin perfectly in stride.
^^^double post will be killer with TS and VD.
Share 49ersWebzone