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Originally posted by BobS:
Kap fans complaining about a 28 point shut out win because their hero is on the bench where he belongs, how low can they sink? Their infatuation has made them angry when they should be happy cause the 49ers just won by more than they had in well over a year.
Originally posted by Blindfury:
Wonder if the D pitching a shutout had anything to do with it, or that we actually have an NFL coach? Aren't you a skins fan now? Didn't you say you were done here?
Originally posted by PacTiger:If kap started last game we'd be 2-0.
Brian Billick, Ravens coach: The allure of all this athleticism at quarterback is very strong right now, but when push comes to shove, most of the people I talk to would go with the guy in the pocket. The scrambling quarterback is like a beautiful woman -- awfully enticing, but in the end she'll break your heart.
Peyton Manning, Colts QB: You hear a lot about how the scrambling quarterback is the new wave, with the pocket guy sort of fading out. To me the scrambling quarterback is a guy who, maybe, doesn't know what he's doing.
George Seifert, Panthers coach: There's nothing more devastating to a defense than a quarterback who can run. You have half your defense in man-to-man coverage rushing down the field, and the other half rushing up the field, and then the QB takes off and blows right past them all to create something out of nothing. That's a killer.
Bill Walsh, Genius: There just isn't a way to play the position as a pure runner. We've seen it attempted over the years, but never with great success. Steve Young was as great a runner as there has ever been in football but he didn't start to make a difference until he became a great passer as well.
Billick: The bottom line is that the running style has yet to win a championship. Guys who win championships are guys who can beat you from the pocket.
Manning: The day of the slow quarterback in any phase of the job-slow thinking, slow release, slow feet -- is what's really fading away.
John Lynch, Bucs safety: There've been a lot of tremendous athletes who didn't turn out to be such great QBs. That's because guys who run a lot may have some early success, but over time, they're a lot easier to stop.
Walsh: What happens is that sooner or later those openings to run aren't there anymore, and if you haven't developed as a passer, your wide receivers will just be standing around downfield watching their quarterback run around.
Billick: So your quarterback takes off and runs-great, you've got a 6-to-8-yard gain. But he missed the 40-yard TD pass to a guy standing alone in the end zone. The drop-back guy can make those big plays down the field. The negative side is that if he's not very mobile, there are limited ways to protect him. A stationary target can be pretty easy to knock down.
Originally posted by CharlieSheen:
I'm telling you guy's, there was no reason for it to take so long to name Gabbert the starter if everyone from coaches to FO were on board. Kap missed half the pre season and looked so bad against GB, they could've easily ended the QB battle there, and started getting Blaine ready for the season if he was who everyone wanted.
My guess was it's the FO that doesn't want the guy that could cost them if he gets hurt again to play, and that seems to be the case.
Originally posted by cciowa:
the defense was great but it was a team win and as you said... under the guise of good coaches... especially the much maligned DC. i still wanted vrabel but wow the d was good monday! a good running game and good defense is a quarterbacks best friend in my opinion. ck looked as healthy as he has been in a long time.. i just wish we could hear some news from practice on how he is doing. despite what you think and despite some of the snarky things i post.. i do NOT hate ck
Originally posted by Afrikan:
^
but what is the point of that?
Kaepernick at his best ( 2012, 2013, first half of 2014) did not rely on his scrambling.
Walsh: What happens is that sooner or later those openings to run aren't there anymore, and if you haven't developed as a passer, your wide receivers will just be standing around downfield watching their quarterback run around.
It was his strong arm, accuracy, and confidence. Yes he used his legs to put games away, or to get key first downs. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
Think about what happened in the offseason. (Kaepernick) had been working — every year I'd hear 'I'm getting stronger, I'm getting faster.' Those are the things he's great at. He's great at that.
And this year it's more different. 'I'm going to work on some of the more softer skills.' Well, it's still hardware. Right? I'm going to work on my release. I'm going to work on my footwork. All important, super important stuff.
But the stuff I'm talking about is way more tedious than that. I keep using that word because it's boring. Middle of April, in the back room, just kind of going through it over and over. It's Mike Shanahan, drive you crazy going through it.
"Let's go through it again."
"No, Mike, I literally cannot go through it again."
"But Steve, if you don't go through it again, and get it deep into your brain, it won't reflex back out. You'll have to think about it for a second, and it's too long. Too late. And then if you start to get all the stuff now embedded into you, you can start to dictate terms."
That's a hard thing to go do. I'd much rather work on the things that I'm great at. "I'm one of the most talented guys that football has ever seen. I'm gonna go work on those things, even around the edges, that I'm super great at already." Why not? Who wants to go do the things that are boring and really hard? And I understand. Especially when you've got — I had that, too — the ability to move around.
So the guys that can move around, it actually works against you for some of this other higher level software stuff that I'm talking about. It's like, "I don't WANT to do that. Because I can do all this other cool stuff."
in games against these Elite Defense. (especially in that mini Elite QB tournamnt with Rodgers, Brady, Manning that one year when the Packers won the Superbowl) it was Rodgers scrambling ability that helped him when those other "Pocket Passers" couldn't get it done in the pocket.... in those playoffs games that year.
It's great and all to have a QB that can win games from the Pocket.. but that isn't always enough. It didn't guarantee Brees, it didn't guarantee Rodgers a win (two times against Kap in the playoffs), and it didn't help Manning all those years in the playoffs.
I mean Kaepernick is not even that good of a "scrambler" (for those who call him that). That is not what has brought him success. It cracks me up when some of the usuals call his play "backyard ball" he's good when he runs straight sure, and yes he has a few plays in his career where he ran around in the pocket for a big play....but that is not the majority of his game like some like spew.
Bill Walsh, Genius: There just isn't a way to play the position as a pure runner. We've seen it attempted over the years, but never with great success. Steve Young was as great a runner as there has ever been in football but he didn't start to make a difference until he became a great passer as well.
Kaepernick, at his best, was a QB who had a strong arm. Was accurate. Was confident. Was fast enough to score TDs from anywhere on the field.
You break it down to hardware and software. And hardware — Colin's like No. 1. Right? Ability to throw the football, strength, speed, agility, athleticism, arm strength, everything. Hardware's best in the league. The software is where we kind of have to develop over time an ability — and it's high-level computing.
There's guys I know that were super smart. This is not about IQ now, by the way. I know super smart, high-IQ guys that could turn over data really fast, but then under pressure completely collapse. Couldn't do it. In theory, in practice, literally in practice, killed it. And in the game it would just overwhelm them. So it's not an IQ thing, it's more of a … there's an aptitude to it.
There's an aptitude to the minutiae of it all. It's boring work! I've said this many times. High-level quarterbacking is really boring. Tedious memorization, so you have reflexive recall. You watch Aaron Rodgers. The other day, I was in Lambeau Field, and his ability to take in just enormous amounts of data and just process it reflexively. To the point where his body and his mind are completely one. He dictates to defenses, he just picks people out. He sits there and waits, and I literally see him look at the strong safety and go, "Oh, you poor sucker. You are just dead."-Steve Young
Kaepernick, when our Oline started get injured and he started to decline, was too stubborn to not adjust to defenses that obviously took away the middle and deep part of the field... leaving our RBs and the flat open. Let alone some of them using a player to spy him.
Kaepernick had half a year to sit back and watch Gabbert take advantage of the checkdowns to get us closer for conversions.
I'm still curious to see what this Kaepernick, when he gets healthy like Chip says, will look like with a good offensive minded coach around him.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:Originally posted by Afrikan:
^
but what is the point of that?
Kaepernick at his best ( 2012, 2013, first half of 2014) did not rely on his scrambling.
He's always relied on his athleticism first and foremost. That is why so many people from the very beginning were saying that he would need to develop as a pocket passer to have any sort of longevity in the NFL.
In 2012 when teams were freaking out about how to stop him and there was no tape on him, he was able to do pretty much whatever he wanted but as time went on and teams got a handle on what his weaknesses and limitations were, they began forcing him to beat them with his arm.
In the comments above, Bill Walsh succinctly stated what would happen to a QB who didn't develop into more of a pure passer type.
Walsh: What happens is that sooner or later those openings to run aren't there anymore, and if you haven't developed as a passer, your wide receivers will just be standing around downfield watching their quarterback run around.
And this is pretty much what happened. Teams began to limit Kaepernick as a runner and began pressing him to beat them via the air which is something he ended up struggling with more often than not.
It was his strong arm, accuracy, and confidence. Yes he used his legs to put games away, or to get key first downs. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
A strong arm doesn't make you a great, good or even average quarterback. John Skelton had a monster of an arm and he sucked. Kaepernick had a strong arm but he also lacked touch on his deep ball which was only brought up about 50,000 times, especially during games. Whereas QB's like Rodgers throw their deep ball with arc to try and get it to land slightly in front of their receiver, Kaepernick was using his incredible arm strength to throw lasers downfield which is one of the reasons he struggled with his accuracy. Just like with his short passes, he would often throw at one speed and this led to him overthrowing receivers deep.
The issue is that too often, rather than hanging back in the pocket and waiting for something to open up, he'd take off and run with it instead and he never really broke that habit, something that Steve Young talked about extensively. That Kaepernick would have to learn to resist the urge to try and outdo the defense with his athleticism and show patience in the pocket to become a complete quarterback.
Think about what happened in the offseason. (Kaepernick) had been working — every year I'd hear 'I'm getting stronger, I'm getting faster.' Those are the things he's great at. He's great at that.
And this year it's more different. 'I'm going to work on some of the more softer skills.' Well, it's still hardware. Right? I'm going to work on my release. I'm going to work on my footwork. All important, super important stuff.
But the stuff I'm talking about is way more tedious than that. I keep using that word because it's boring. Middle of April, in the back room, just kind of going through it over and over. It's Mike Shanahan, drive you crazy going through it.
"Let's go through it again."
"No, Mike, I literally cannot go through it again."
"But Steve, if you don't go through it again, and get it deep into your brain, it won't reflex back out. You'll have to think about it for a second, and it's too long. Too late. And then if you start to get all the stuff now embedded into you, you can start to dictate terms."
That's a hard thing to go do. I'd much rather work on the things that I'm great at. "I'm one of the most talented guys that football has ever seen. I'm gonna go work on those things, even around the edges, that I'm super great at already." Why not? Who wants to go do the things that are boring and really hard? And I understand. Especially when you've got — I had that, too — the ability to move around.
So the guys that can move around, it actually works against you for some of this other higher level software stuff that I'm talking about. It's like, "I don't WANT to do that. Because I can do all this other cool stuff."
in games against these Elite Defense. (especially in that mini Elite QB tournamnt with Rodgers, Brady, Manning that one year when the Packers won the Superbowl) it was Rodgers scrambling ability that helped him when those other "Pocket Passers" couldn't get it done in the pocket.... in those playoffs games that year.
Scrambling ability helps but those other guys have been constant playoff and SB regulars, even without the scrambling ability. What guys like Manning and Brady have shown is great pocket presence, they weren't threats to take off and run for 30 yards, but they could move smoothly around the pocket, staying aware of the pass rush while keeping their eyes downfield, always scanning for a receiver to get open.
It's great and all to have a QB that can win games from the Pocket.. but that isn't always enough. It didn't guarantee Brees, it didn't guarantee Rodgers a win (two times against Kap in the playoffs), and it didn't help Manning all those years in the playoffs.
There is never any guarantee in anything. However historically, a guy that can pass from the pocket and pick apart a defense with his arm has been infinitesimally more successful than scrambling type QB that resorts to picking up yards on the ground in lieu of passing the ball. You look at the next generation of young QB's that are in this league, a guy like Jameis Winston who can tuck the ball and run but there is no question about his pocket attributes and abilities. He's a pocket passer with athleticism. Aaron Rodgers is a pocket passer with athleticism. Even Russell Wilson, who is the second coming of Fran Tarkenton has sharply improved his ability in the pocket and he has always shown poise and awareness when moving with the football, eyes always scanning down the field, waiting for something to open up, running only as a last resort, which is why he so often ends up hitting those big bombs downfield, because he gives his receivers a chance to get open for that 30-40 yard pass rather than taking off and scrambling for 10 yards.
I mean Kaepernick is not even that good of a "scrambler" (for those who call him that). That is not what has brought him success. It cracks me up when some of the usuals call his play "backyard ball" he's good when he runs straight sure, and yes he has a few plays in his career where he ran around in the pocket for a big play....but that is not the majority of his game like some like spew.
"Scrambler", "running QB", whatever term you prefer, he's a guy who has been far too quick to resort to his athleticism to try and bail him out, leaving a lot of plays on the field. Like Brian Billick said in the comments above, the running QB can get you 4-8 yards on the ground, the guy who hangs back in the pocket and waits can find the guy who breaks open late for a huge completion of 20, 30 or more yards.
Bill Walsh knew quarterbacks better than anyone. He was a quarterback genius and if he were around, I'm sure he'd have seen a ton of potential in Kaepernick as well but I also believe that Walsh would have insisted on Kaepernick fixing his mechanics, improving his footwork, improving his pocket presence, all the things that he demanded of Steve Young that took Young years to perfect.
Bill Walsh, Genius: There just isn't a way to play the position as a pure runner. We've seen it attempted over the years, but never with great success. Steve Young was as great a runner as there has ever been in football but he didn't start to make a difference until he became a great passer as well.
Kaepernick, at his best, was a QB who had a strong arm. Was accurate. Was confident. Was fast enough to score TDs from anywhere on the field.
He had a strong arm and he was confident, as far as accuracy, you lost me there. He thrived on making splash plays but he was never a guy who would consistently pick you apart up and down the field. He struggled with short passes of any kind, largely because he never threw with much touch. Virtually every pass was a bullet, whether 5 yards away or 25 yards away. He doesn't always seem to process well what is going on out on the field, he doesn't adapt to what defenses are doing to counter him, when defenses blitz he rarely hits the area that was left open, he's a guy who came in, took the league apart largely on instinct and athleticism and once the league adapted, as the league always does, he really never showed the ability to adapt back.
The Steve Young scenario was open for him, a super athletic running QB that makes the transition to ultra-dangerous pocket passer that can run at any moment but it just never happened. The potential was there, the upside was there, but he never took that next step. Kaepernick seemed content spending his offseasons doing track workouts, building his body, getting faster, improving on the stuff he was already good at but neglecting the really dull stuff that truly makes for great NFL quarterbacks.
You break it down to hardware and software. And hardware — Colin's like No. 1. Right? Ability to throw the football, strength, speed, agility, athleticism, arm strength, everything. Hardware's best in the league. The software is where we kind of have to develop over time an ability — and it's high-level computing.
There's guys I know that were super smart. This is not about IQ now, by the way. I know super smart, high-IQ guys that could turn over data really fast, but then under pressure completely collapse. Couldn't do it. In theory, in practice, literally in practice, killed it. And in the game it would just overwhelm them. So it's not an IQ thing, it's more of a … there's an aptitude to it.
There's an aptitude to the minutiae of it all. It's boring work! I've said this many times. High-level quarterbacking is really boring. Tedious memorization, so you have reflexive recall. You watch Aaron Rodgers. The other day, I was in Lambeau Field, and his ability to take in just enormous amounts of data and just process it reflexively. To the point where his body and his mind are completely one. He dictates to defenses, he just picks people out. He sits there and waits, and I literally see him look at the strong safety and go, "Oh, you poor sucker. You are just dead."-Steve Young
Kaepernick, when our Oline started get injured and he started to decline, was too stubborn to not adjust to defenses that obviously took away the middle and deep part of the field... leaving our RBs and the flat open. Let alone some of them using a player to spy him.
Kaepernick had half a year to sit back and watch Gabbert take advantage of the checkdowns to get us closer for conversions.
Unless he's somehow developed proper touch while rehabbing in Colorado, I just don't see him getting better in that area. Just like Gabbert with his happy feet when throwing, Kaepernick tends to resort to just spraying throws in there, especially when he is pressured and a big part of playing QB is adjusting your touch on throws, changing up the velocity depending on whether you're throwing a few yards out or 40 yards downfield. Aaron Rodgers is an absolute wizard at doing this. I don't know if Kaepernick will ever be capable of it.
I'm still curious to see what this Kaepernick, when he gets healthy like Chip says, will look like with a good offensive minded coach around him.
Anything is possible, and Bill Walsh was a huge believer in proper coaching being able to fix a quarterback but he also believed that the only way to "fix" a quarterback was to start with their mechanics and a large part of that depended on the QB's willingness to enthusiastically do a lot of tedious, repetitive, mind-numbingly boring stuff, over and over and over again.
This doesn't apply just to Kaepernick. Gabbert has a host of his own issues, some are similar to Kaepernick's, some are vastly different. I'm inclined to be skeptical that either of them will improve to become consistently accurate passers but crazier things have happened. I just think because of how long both have been in the NFL now, their habits are pretty well ingrained and it would take a heavy duty amount of work to undo the stuff that they've already picked up over the years.
Ultimately I believe that this team would be better off picking a QB from scratch, hopefully make a wise choice on a QB prospect and then ensuring that they are coached and developed correctly from the very beginning, not allowing them to develop bad habits or things that they would have to try and undo years after the fact.
