Colin Kaepernick Thread

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Several things:

Thl, your study of this is just mind blowing. No way of knowing how much time you have put into your presentations and comments. I agree with NC, whether it was a bit overdone or not , we absolutely sucked on 1st down. Whether it was 2nd and 9.7 or 2nd and 8 or 12, the result is the same....Grossly inadequate. I do like your reasoning for getting the numbers correct , but good Lord, seeing if it was Kap's poor read, Kap taking off, bad or no OL protection, poor play design, failure to adjust to the defensive front shown, etc, all has to be factored in when trying to find out how and WHY to get better. Obviously, many if not most of us think play design or play call were the culprits, ie HaRo, which is great, because neither can uck-Fay it up any more. Whether Kap or the OL were more responsible....that sure sounds like weeks of film review. I wonder if our new HC and OC will spend as much time as you....sure hope so and I hope they make your work look tiny. But that is just my hope.

Re: OL passblocking, you hear it all the time from the retired pro linemen on TV, (as well as others) that coming out of college, everyone who is an up and coming OL starter knows how to run block. What they don't know is how to passblock, and I would argue that was us last few yrs. Great run blockers but shiddy pass blockers. As Thl noted, that could be major part of the problem with 1st down play failures. Bad or inadequate passblocking. Now maybe kap didn't get on his receivers early enough, but to me, the play calls that killed us began with the first play in SEA stadium, a game we thot we had a shot at. Ist play? 18 yarder , 7 stepper INComplete. 2nd play, 7 stepper as I recall, INC. 3rd play was a "I give up- white flag" Gore for 4. Three and out and that was it . SEA rolled right over us and I would make the case we threw it away based on those first 3 goofy playcalls. There was plenty more where that came from.

But sometimes....ok, many times....it was obvious SEA was in a blitz pak and HaRo had kap lined up for a 7-9 stepper. ALL FAILED. That one is pretty dam simple. Failure of the play caller. And then, to add to the misery, HaRo stayed with the medium to long range passes, virtually all INC. No question in my mind the offending agent here...harbaw and his sidekick, no plan ro-man. Cripes it was like they bet money on SEA and wanted to see us fail. Play calling can factor out poor pass blocking if the play gets gone quick. And that was something HaRo never, ever figured out or saw. Why I don't know but I would bet it was because that was the way Jimbo had done it when he was QB, several decades ago. So, if we have poor passblocking, we shouldn't see anything but 1-3 steppers and everyone should be looking for the ball the moment they leave the LOS. Ok , sure, that is WCO at its best. But we lost many a game last yr with bad passblocking married to really poor play calling.(*long developing passes, or 7 steppers or greater)

I will bet if JT sees our OL can't handle the SEA passrush, he goes to quick hitters until they back off. Why? Because it was so dam obvious. And that is why I feel good about this yr with way less talent than last yr. We got rid of the coaching staff that couldn't and got new blood, with lots of experience up and down the O and D in asst coaches. Last yr we got a big FAIL for coaching. This yr, less talent et al, we are bound to have better play calling...just based on the 2 guys that were Peter principled up....ARE GONE.

"I will bet if JT sees our OL can't handle the SEA passrush, he goes to quick hitters until they back off. Why? Because it was so dam obvious"

Easier said than done - quick hitters really aren't the best way to handle Sea.

When NE beat Sea in the SB, Brady wasn't getting the ball out on 3 step drops - it was more 5 and 5 with a hitch - which is the majority of drops we ran last year. The big difference was in 2 key areas:
1. NE's O-line is one of the best PB lines in the league and has been for years. Brady routinely got 4-5 seconds in the pocket against most teams. He was getting at least 3 seconds in the pocket most of that game.
2. Brady was willing to take the RB's into the flat at the 3 second mark.

The way Sea plays is with a 3 deep 4 underneath coverage about 90% of the time. This means, they're very aggressive in their "spot" drops to take away the quick hitters - so it gives their pass rush at least 2 seconds to get to the QB. You have to beat SEA in that golden zone of 3-3.5 seconds -that is, if your line blocks ok.

Sea's greatest strength in pass defense is their pass rush IMO. Cromartie talked about it last year when he was FA, would he like to play for SEA or SF, he said SEA based off of, "those guys they have up front can really generate pressure." Their pass rush allows them to play the quick throws very aggressively, so, your quick hitters really don't work too well.

Plus, most quick hitters don't work well against zone teams, because it takes time to work into the soft spot of the zone - especially the way SEA plays zone. Your best bet is an effective run game that slows down the pass rush. The games we've beaten SEA, is when we've effectively run against them.

Originally posted by crake49:
^^^^ jonnydel, I've read that these days teams running a ZBS generally have better pass protection. Do you agree with that?

(and BTW, I think you meant 'discontinuity.')

Oh no, I meant discongruity.... I feel that strongly about it hahaha.

Yes and no. They get better pass pro because it puts a lot of horizontal strain on the front 7. Because the lineman have to take a half second to make sure it's a pass first. When playing against a zone blocking scheme, there's usually a lot of lateral movement, so the lineman have to make sure they don't need to move laterally before they can move vertically towards the QB. Half a second in the NFL can make a huge difference. But, the downside is, a lot of teams will slant lines different ways against ZBS, so, if you do become predictable in any way with your ZB, you can end up with an unblocked rusher off the edge. The key is, whatever personnel group you're in, you have to be able to effectively run out of that personnel group to gain any advantage against the rush. If there is no threat of a lateral movement run, then your PB gains no advantage in the ZBS.

The Patriots were only able to rush for 57 yards with a 2.7 ypg. So, that's not how they beat the Seahawks. Of course Tom Brady is Tom Brady.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Oh no, I meant discongruity.... I feel that strongly about it hahaha.

Yes and no. They get better pass pro because it puts a lot of horizontal strain on the front 7. Because the lineman have to take a half second to make sure it's a pass first. When playing against a zone blocking scheme, there's usually a lot of lateral movement, so the lineman have to make sure they don't need to move laterally before they can move vertically towards the QB. Half a second in the NFL can make a huge difference. But, the downside is, a lot of teams will slant lines different ways against ZBS, so, if you do become predictable in any way with your ZB, you can end up with an unblocked rusher off the edge. The key is, whatever personnel group you're in, you have to be able to effectively run out of that personnel group to gain any advantage against the rush. If there is no threat of a lateral movement run, then your PB gains no advantage in the ZBS.

Thank you. That helps. When I read your posts and three or four other fans around here, it's amazing to me that after watching closely for 50 years, I still have so much to learn about what's really going on out there.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Several things:

Thl, your study of this is just mind blowing. No way of knowing how much time you have put into your presentations and comments. I agree with NC, whether it was a bit overdone or not , we absolutely sucked on 1st down. Whether it was 2nd and 9.7 or 2nd and 8 or 12, the result is the same....Grossly inadequate. I do like your reasoning for getting the numbers correct , but good Lord, seeing if it was Kap's poor read, Kap taking off, bad or no OL protection, poor play design, failure to adjust to the defensive front shown, etc, all has to be factored in when trying to find out how and WHY to get better. Obviously, many if not most of us think play design or play call were the culprits, ie HaRo, which is great, because neither can uck-Fay it up any more. Whether Kap or the OL were more responsible....that sure sounds like weeks of film review. I wonder if our new HC and OC will spend as much time as you....sure hope so and I hope they make your work look tiny. But that is just my hope.

Re: OL passblocking, you hear it all the time from the retired pro linemen on TV, (as well as others) that coming out of college, everyone who is an up and coming OL starter knows how to run block. What they don't know is how to passblock, and I would argue that was us last few yrs. Great run blockers but shiddy pass blockers. As Thl noted, that could be major part of the problem with 1st down play failures. Bad or inadequate passblocking. Now maybe kap didn't get on his receivers early enough, but to me, the play calls that killed us began with the first play in SEA stadium, a game we thot we had a shot at. Ist play? 18 yarder , 7 stepper INComplete. 2nd play, 7 stepper as I recall, INC. 3rd play was a "I give up- white flag" Gore for 4. Three and out and that was it . SEA rolled right over us and I would make the case we threw it away based on those first 3 goofy playcalls. There was plenty more where that came from.

But sometimes....ok, many times....it was obvious SEA was in a blitz pak and HaRo had kap lined up for a 7-9 stepper. ALL FAILED. That one is pretty dam simple. Failure of the play caller. And then, to add to the misery, HaRo stayed with the medium to long range passes, virtually all INC. No question in my mind the offending agent here...harbaw and his sidekick, no plan ro-man. Cripes it was like they bet money on SEA and wanted to see us fail. Play calling can factor out poor pass blocking if the play gets gone quick. And that was something HaRo never, ever figured out or saw. Why I don't know but I would bet it was because that was the way Jimbo had done it when he was QB, several decades ago. So, if we have poor passblocking, we shouldn't see anything but 1-3 steppers and everyone should be looking for the ball the moment they leave the LOS. Ok , sure, that is WCO at its best. But we lost many a game last yr with bad passblocking married to really poor play calling.(*long developing passes, or 7 steppers or greater)

I will bet if JT sees our OL can't handle the SEA passrush, he goes to quick hitters until they back off. Why? Because it was so dam obvious. And that is why I feel good about this yr with way less talent than last yr. We got rid of the coaching staff that couldn't and got new blood, with lots of experience up and down the O and D in asst coaches. Last yr we got a big FAIL for coaching. This yr, less talent et al, we are bound to have better play calling...just based on the 2 guys that were Peter principled up....ARE GONE.

"I will bet if JT sees our OL can't handle the SEA passrush, he goes to quick hitters until they back off. Why? Because it was so dam obvious"

Easier said than done - quick hitters really aren't the best way to handle Sea.

When NE beat Sea in the SB, Brady wasn't getting the ball out on 3 step drops - it was more 5 and 5 with a hitch - which is the majority of drops we ran last year. The big difference was in 2 key areas:
1. NE's O-line is one of the best PB lines in the league and has been for years. Brady routinely got 4-5 seconds in the pocket against most teams. He was getting at least 3 seconds in the pocket most of that game.
2. Brady was willing to take the RB's into the flat at the 3 second mark.

The way Sea plays is with a 3 deep 4 underneath coverage about 90% of the time. This means, they're very aggressive in their "spot" drops to take away the quick hitters - so it gives their pass rush at least 2 seconds to get to the QB. You have to beat SEA in that golden zone of 3-3.5 seconds -that is, if your line blocks ok.

Sea's greatest strength in pass defense is their pass rush IMO. Cromartie talked about it last year when he was FA, would he like to play for SEA or SF, he said SEA based off of, "those guys they have up front can really generate pressure." Their pass rush allows them to play the quick throws very aggressively, so, your quick hitters really don't work too well.

Plus, most quick hitters don't work well against zone teams, because it takes time to work into the soft spot of the zone - especially the way SEA plays zone. Your best bet is an effective run game that slows down the pass rush. The games we've beaten SEA, is when we've effectively run against them.

I agree and disagee. NE used Vareen under neath as part of the run game , with crossing routes, then hit edelman with a lot of intermediate routes with the space created by Vareen. They also threw 50+ times which I never recommend for any team who's qb isn't named Brady. The addition of Bush will open up those same routes.

Originally posted by sdaddy101269:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Several things:

Thl, your study of this is just mind blowing. No way of knowing how much time you have put into your presentations and comments. I agree with NC, whether it was a bit overdone or not , we absolutely sucked on 1st down. Whether it was 2nd and 9.7 or 2nd and 8 or 12, the result is the same....Grossly inadequate. I do like your reasoning for getting the numbers correct , but good Lord, seeing if it was Kap's poor read, Kap taking off, bad or no OL protection, poor play design, failure to adjust to the defensive front shown, etc, all has to be factored in when trying to find out how and WHY to get better. Obviously, many if not most of us think play design or play call were the culprits, ie HaRo, which is great, because neither can uck-Fay it up any more. Whether Kap or the OL were more responsible....that sure sounds like weeks of film review. I wonder if our new HC and OC will spend as much time as you....sure hope so and I hope they make your work look tiny. But that is just my hope.

Re: OL passblocking, you hear it all the time from the retired pro linemen on TV, (as well as others) that coming out of college, everyone who is an up and coming OL starter knows how to run block. What they don't know is how to passblock, and I would argue that was us last few yrs. Great run blockers but shiddy pass blockers. As Thl noted, that could be major part of the problem with 1st down play failures. Bad or inadequate passblocking. Now maybe kap didn't get on his receivers early enough, but to me, the play calls that killed us began with the first play in SEA stadium, a game we thot we had a shot at. Ist play? 18 yarder , 7 stepper INComplete. 2nd play, 7 stepper as I recall, INC. 3rd play was a "I give up- white flag" Gore for 4. Three and out and that was it . SEA rolled right over us and I would make the case we threw it away based on those first 3 goofy playcalls. There was plenty more where that came from.

But sometimes....ok, many times....it was obvious SEA was in a blitz pak and HaRo had kap lined up for a 7-9 stepper. ALL FAILED. That one is pretty dam simple. Failure of the play caller. And then, to add to the misery, HaRo stayed with the medium to long range passes, virtually all INC. No question in my mind the offending agent here...harbaw and his sidekick, no plan ro-man. Cripes it was like they bet money on SEA and wanted to see us fail. Play calling can factor out poor pass blocking if the play gets gone quick. And that was something HaRo never, ever figured out or saw. Why I don't know but I would bet it was because that was the way Jimbo had done it when he was QB, several decades ago. So, if we have poor passblocking, we shouldn't see anything but 1-3 steppers and everyone should be looking for the ball the moment they leave the LOS. Ok , sure, that is WCO at its best. But we lost many a game last yr with bad passblocking married to really poor play calling.(*long developing passes, or 7 steppers or greater)

I will bet if JT sees our OL can't handle the SEA passrush, he goes to quick hitters until they back off. Why? Because it was so dam obvious. And that is why I feel good about this yr with way less talent than last yr. We got rid of the coaching staff that couldn't and got new blood, with lots of experience up and down the O and D in asst coaches. Last yr we got a big FAIL for coaching. This yr, less talent et al, we are bound to have better play calling...just based on the 2 guys that were Peter principled up....ARE GONE.

"I will bet if JT sees our OL can't handle the SEA passrush, he goes to quick hitters until they back off. Why? Because it was so dam obvious"

Easier said than done - quick hitters really aren't the best way to handle Sea.

When NE beat Sea in the SB, Brady wasn't getting the ball out on 3 step drops - it was more 5 and 5 with a hitch - which is the majority of drops we ran last year. The big difference was in 2 key areas:
1. NE's O-line is one of the best PB lines in the league and has been for years. Brady routinely got 4-5 seconds in the pocket against most teams. He was getting at least 3 seconds in the pocket most of that game.
2. Brady was willing to take the RB's into the flat at the 3 second mark.

The way Sea plays is with a 3 deep 4 underneath coverage about 90% of the time. This means, they're very aggressive in their "spot" drops to take away the quick hitters - so it gives their pass rush at least 2 seconds to get to the QB. You have to beat SEA in that golden zone of 3-3.5 seconds -that is, if your line blocks ok.

Sea's greatest strength in pass defense is their pass rush IMO. Cromartie talked about it last year when he was FA, would he like to play for SEA or SF, he said SEA based off of, "those guys they have up front can really generate pressure." Their pass rush allows them to play the quick throws very aggressively, so, your quick hitters really don't work too well.

Plus, most quick hitters don't work well against zone teams, because it takes time to work into the soft spot of the zone - especially the way SEA plays zone. Your best bet is an effective run game that slows down the pass rush. The games we've beaten SEA, is when we've effectively run against them.

I agree and disagee. NE used Vareen under neath as part of the run game , with crossing routes, then hit edelman with a lot of intermediate routes with the space created by Vareen. They also threw 50+ times which I never recommend for any team who's qb isn't named Brady. The addition of Bush will open up those same routes.

I should probably have clarified - i mean quick hitters as in the 3 step drops. The most effective routes I've seen run against them are underneath routes -but, they're not going to be quick, 3 step drop hitters. Most likely, 5 step drops.

Originally posted by crake49:
The Patriots were only able to rush for 57 yards with a 2.7 ypg. So, that's not how they beat the Seahawks. Of course Tom Brady is Tom Brady.

exactly, for as much as I can't stand Tom Brady - he does a good job of looking off zone defenders - which he did very well against SEA - but still threw 2 picks.

The Patriots had a very good gameplan in that game -and well executed and it was all predicated on getting at least 3 seconds in the pocket most of the time.

One thing I noticed in watching the LT for NE was that he didn't seem like he was looking to really "beat" anyone off the edge. In that, he wasn't looking to keep his guy from every getting to the QB, he was more trying to keep him from getting to the QB within 3 seconds. If the guy got there after that point - he trusted that the QB was going to get rid of the ball.

Our guys seemed to be trying to set themselves up to block for as long as possible and seemed to get beat in a variety of ways.

If CK and the O-line can gain some continuity and can gel(not having lineman in/out of the lineup will help) where the line knows where he'll be and he can get the ball out on time for plays that are timing plays, and our O-line can be better coached - I felt our O-line was severely under-coached last year, those things can help our passing game far more than any change in coordinator could do.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by crake49:

The Patriots were only able to rush for 57 yards with a 2.7 ypg. So, that's not how they beat the Seahawks. Of course Tom Brady is Tom Brady.

exactly, for as much as I can't stand Tom Brady - he does a good job of looking off zone defenders - which he did very well against SEA - but still threw 2 picks.

The Patriots had a very good gameplan in that game -and well executed and it was all predicated on getting at least 3 seconds in the pocket most of the time.

One thing I noticed in watching the LT for NE was that he didn't seem like he was looking to really "beat" anyone off the edge. In that, he wasn't looking to keep his guy from every getting to the QB, he was more trying to keep him from getting to the QB within 3 seconds. If the guy got there after that point - he trusted that the QB was going to get rid of the ball.

Our guys seemed to be trying to set themselves up to block for as long as possible and seemed to get beat in a variety of ways.

If CK and the O-line can gain some continuity and can gel(not having lineman in/out of the lineup will help) where the line knows where he'll be and he can get the ball out on time for plays that are timing plays, and our O-line can be better coached - I felt our O-line was severely under-coached last year, those things can help our passing game far more than any change in coordinator could do.

THis where bad playcalling doesn't help the ol and lets the dl tee off on the QB ...we needed to make the dl hesitate to give that extra second..but we didn't

Originally posted by jonnydel:

The Patriots had a very good gameplan in that game -and well executed and it was all predicated on getting at least 3 seconds in the pocket most of the time.

One thing I noticed in watching the LT for NE was that he didn't seem like he was looking to really "beat" anyone off the edge. In that, he wasn't looking to keep his guy from every getting to the QB, he was more trying to keep him from getting to the QB within 3 seconds. If the guy got there after that point - he trusted that the QB was going to get rid of the ball.

Our guys seemed to be trying to set themselves up to block for as long as possible and seemed to get beat in a variety of ways.

You make it sound as if our offensive linemen , our guys, are just making individual decisions about the blocking scheme.

I would think that the New England left tackle was only holding his blocks for three seconds it was because that what the coaches told him to do. It was not just his individual decision.

I would think that the 49ers offensive line did or attempted to do what our coaches told them to do. Kaepernick was sacked 11 times in two games against the SeaHawks last year.

I am not an expert but I think setting the blocking scheme is the work of the head coach, the offensive coordinator, and the line coach, not the individual players.

Maybe a different blocking scheme would have helped.

Originally posted by buck:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

The Patriots had a very good gameplan in that game -and well executed and it was all predicated on getting at least 3 seconds in the pocket most of the time.

One thing I noticed in watching the LT for NE was that he didn't seem like he was looking to really "beat" anyone off the edge. In that, he wasn't looking to keep his guy from every getting to the QB, he was more trying to keep him from getting to the QB within 3 seconds. If the guy got there after that point - he trusted that the QB was going to get rid of the ball.

Our guys seemed to be trying to set themselves up to block for as long as possible and seemed to get beat in a variety of ways.

You make it sound as if our offensive linemen , our guys, are just making individual decisions about the blocking scheme.

I would think that the New England left tackle was only holding his blocks for three seconds it was because that what the coaches told him to do. It was not just his individual decision.

I would think that the 49ers offensive line did or attempted to do what our coaches told them to do. Kaepernick was sacked 11 times in two games against the SeaHawks last year.

I am not an expert but I think setting the blocking scheme is the work of the head coach, the offensive coordinator, and the line coach, not the individual players.

Maybe a different blocking scheme would have helped.

While we're pinning blame, don't forget that the QB has to call out assignments at the line.

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:

Originally posted by buck:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

The Patriots had a very good gameplan in that game -and well executed and it was all predicated on getting at least 3 seconds in the pocket most of the time.

One thing I noticed in watching the LT for NE was that he didn't seem like he was looking to really "beat" anyone off the edge. In that, he wasn't looking to keep his guy from every getting to the QB, he was more trying to keep him from getting to the QB within 3 seconds. If the guy got there after that point - he trusted that the QB was going to get rid of the ball.

Our guys seemed to be trying to set themselves up to block for as long as possible and seemed to get beat in a variety of ways.

You make it sound as if our offensive linemen , our guys, are just making individual decisions about the blocking scheme.

I would think that the New England left tackle was only holding his blocks for three seconds it was because that what the coaches told him to do. It was not just his individual decision.

I would think that the 49ers offensive line did or attempted to do what our coaches told them to do. Kaepernick was sacked 11 times in two games against the SeaHawks last year.

I am not an expert but I think setting the blocking scheme is the work of the head coach, the offensive coordinator, and the line coach, not the individual players.

Maybe a different blocking scheme would have helped.

While we're pinning blame, don't forget that the QB has to call out assignments at the line.

If we are going to assign blame for the losses in Seattle, which I did not think I was doing, Kaepernick should get his fair share, as should the offensive line, and the coaching staff.

There is no denying that Kaepernick has NOT played well against Seattle. I think that his worst games have been against Seattle.

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:
While we're pinning blame, don't forget that the QB has to call out assignments at the line.

Could be wrong, but I don't think that is the case. I think the center is calling out blocking assignments and the QB might point out players he thinks are going to blitz.

Originally posted by crake49:

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:
While we're pinning blame, don't forget that the QB has to call out assignments at the line.

Could be wrong, but I don't think that is the case. I think the center is calling out blocking assignments and the QB might point out players he thinks are going to blitz.

Fair enough. If you want to draw a distinction between the two roles, that's fine. Doesn't really change my point...

Originally posted by buck:
If we are going to assign blame for the losses in Seattle, which I did not think I was doing, Kaepernick should get his fair share, as should the offensive line, and the coaching staff, as should the team.

There is no denying that Kaepernick has NOT played well against Seattle. I think that his worst games have been against Seattle.

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:

Originally posted by crake49:

Originally posted by VinculumJuris:
While we're pinning blame, don't forget that the QB has to call out assignments at the line.

Could be wrong, but I don't think that is the case. I think the center is calling out blocking assignments and the QB might point out players he thinks are going to blitz.

Fair enough. If you want to draw a distinction between the two roles, that's fine. Doesn't really change my point...

If your point was that the QB calls out blocking assignments for the line, I think you're wrong. Maybe one of our experts around here can weigh in on this.