There are 253 users in the forums

Colin Kaepernick Thread

Shop Find 49ers gear online
Originally posted by VinculumJuris:
I agree that it is unfair to point to a few mistakes or bad plays and declare that a player is bad. There are simply too many moving parts on any given play. Similarly, I think it is unfair in many cases to point to a select statistic and declare that one's assertion is factual. Certain stats are objectively ascertainable (time of possession, for example), but many (most?) are directly or indirectly influenced by other factors on the field. That is especially true of composite / "advanced" stats which, to me, are murky at best. Too many moving parts for the numbers to capture. It's even worse when one cannot explain the stats that he or she is citing. Most people realize that stats are imperfect tools for analyzing what happened on the field, but claiming that an assertion is "factual" because an "advanced" statistic backs it up is, in my opinion, tenuous and damaging to one's credibility.

Thanks for posting the PFF grading process. I have seen it before and agree with your critique that comparing independently derived grades is preferable to their iterative review format. When I ask for methodology on a particular stat, I want to know which factors are considered, how those factors are measured / observed, and what role those factors play in influencing the outcome / conclusion. Anything like that available for the PFF sack stat?

I've looked for that on PFF, and there are some specific explanations in some cases, but it still comes down to guys watching plays. Totally agree with you in regards to using stats sans context. The sack data is perhaps among the most murky stats. Without knowing the linecalls, all the player responsiblity...just a shot in the dark. For instance, Gore looked terrible last year blocking for Kaepernick. Here is one of the best blocking backs in the game...did he unlearn how to block? So what was happening in front of him that created confusion? Did he see something different than the line?

Your separation of verifiable stats versus subjective stats is well done as well. You can argue where the chains should be, but not where they are...3rd and 1 or first down.
I see a lot of great arguments against the word "factual". Yes. It was a poor choice of vocabulary. However, I have yet to see an argument against the PFF stats themselves. A whole lot of conjecture on your part as well by simply just discrediting the entire website instead of arguing the specific stats in which I was referring to.

Most people would have a counter argument such as, "Kaepernick held onto the ball too long last year and thats why he took too many sacks". Then to back up that statement, you would provide proof for that narrative.

So to provide the best argument, one should argue against all points and not just cherry pick words out of statements that I made.
Originally posted by insanemike27:
I see a lot of great arguments against the word "factual". Yes. It was a poor choice of vocabulary. However, I have yet to see an argument against the PFF stats themselves. A whole lot of conjecture on your part as well by simply just discrediting the entire website instead of arguing the specific stats in which I was referring to.

Most people would have a counter argument such as, "Kaepernick held onto the ball too long last year and thats why he took too many sacks". Then to back up that statement, you would provide proof for that narrative.

So to provide the best argument, one should argue against all points and not just cherry pick words out of statements that I made.

I sidetracked the argument to stats in general, but certainly not aimed at your posts. If I distracted my apologies. We all use stats to provide added context and it's great when people can insert other stats that either confirm or refute. Not sure this is the site for proof though...that might be above our collective abilities!
Originally posted by insanemike27:
I see a lot of great arguments against the word "factual". Yes. It was a poor choice of vocabulary. However, I have yet to see an argument against the PFF stats themselves. A whole lot of conjecture on your part as well by simply just discrediting the entire website instead of arguing the specific stats in which I was referring to.

Most people would have a counter argument such as, "Kaepernick held onto the ball too long last year and thats why he took too many sacks". Then to back up that statement, you would provide proof for that narrative.

So to provide the best argument, one should argue against all points and not just cherry pick words out of statements that I made.

My precise point is that the specific stat you are using (the PFF sack responsibility stat) is murky. People on this forum get a lot of miles out of that stat by throwing it out there and hoping that it stands on its own. Worse yet, people use that stat as the foundation of their argument without being able to explain it. The discussion expanded into an analysis of PFF as a whole, but it started with me and others challenging the objectivity of that particular stat.

The rest of your post is valid, though I want to point out that I'm not challenging the conclusion you reached. I have no "narrative" on that at the moment; my comments were confined to your use of that PFF stat.
Hopefully he didn't shave today
Lets go Kap! Put up the numbers you had in the second half of the steeler game but in the first half!
The only thing that you should 100% believe in, as far as sacks go, is what you see with your own eyes.
Originally posted by InsertNameHere:
The only thing that you should 100% believe in, as far as sacks go, is what you see with your own eyes.

Disagree...it's what the referee sees with his eyes! My eyes don't matter much on the field of play!
I expect to see some nice long passes completed early today! Go CK, go niners!
I know many want Kap to stay in the pocket longer and he has done a good job so far...but I hope he at least adds alittle Aaron Rodgers hop after his passes.

Rodgers says he does it so his feet is not planted to prevent low leg injuries...says he learned it from Farve.

Watching Big Ben's most likely season ending injury and I wonder if that hop would've helped right there. :/

edit- I don't expect Kap to incorporate that technique this season...but hopefully next season. Baby Steps.
[ Edited by Afrikan on Sep 27, 2015 at 12:20 PM ]
Originally posted by Afrikan:
I know many want Kap to stay in the pocket longer and he has done a good job so far...but I hope he at least adds alittle Aaron Rodgers hop after his passes.

Rodgers says he does it so his feet is not planted to prevent low leg injuries...says he learned it from Farve.

Watching Big Ben's most likely season ending injury and I wonder if that hop would've helped right there. :/

edit- I don't expect Kap to incorporate that technique this season...but hopefully next season. Baby Steps.

Great insight.
Put up some points KAp!
Nice game loser
Originally posted by sincalfaithful:
Nice game loser

i'm not sure what you expect, he had pressure in his face both times. i guess just take the sack?
gabbert time
Search Share 49ersWebzone