Joe Montana Legacy Secured

Originally posted by genus49:

One of Brady and Montana was still winning games at 39 years old...

And what pocket skills are those exactly? How do they stand out from any other QB who played back then who won games?

Guess Brady doesn't get slammed on the turf? Give me a break...this is getting pathetic.

He doesn't get slammed on the turf ... Astro turf doesn't exist anymore. He doesn't get hit in the head or get hit late or get hit in the lower body or get picked up and slammed to the ground. There is a reason he is playing at 39. Brees too. Manning too. They can play longer because they don't take the beating that QBs used to.

Originally posted by midrdan:
Here is where eras truly make a difference:

Between 1981 and 1996, the average offensive and defensive combined ranking of the eventual SB winner was 4. An example of this would be a team ranked No. 1 in offense and No. 3 in defense (for a combined ranking of 4)

Only one team during the 49ers dynasty era won a SB with a defense outside of the top 10 - the 1983 Raiders. Only one team won with an offense outside of the top 10 - the 1990 Giants.

You had to be stacked to win the SB in that era.

Conversely, between 2001 and 2016 (the Pats dynasty) the average offensive and defensive combined ranking of the eventual SB winner was 9.5. More than double a decline. You had teams in this era win the SB with the 25th rated defense (Giants) or the 20th rated offense (Steelers). And many more examples of lopsided teams (good on offense mediocre on defense or vice versa).

The 2007 Giants, who toppled the all time amazing undefeated Patriots are the only team ever to win a SB finishing outside the top 10 in both offense (14th) and defense (17th) rankings. By comparison, the 1989 Saints finished better than the Giants in both categories - and finished 9-7 - and missed the playoffs.

The show back then was for the elite. Now anyone can participate. It waters down what the Patriots have accomplished.

"Boo hoo, enough with the Dynasties, we want to win too" ... #WhenThecapHit

Originally posted by midrdan:

Originally posted by genus49:
One of Brady and Montana was still winning games at 39 years old...

And what pocket skills are those exactly? How do they stand out from any other QB who played back then who won games?

Guess Brady doesn't get slammed on the turf? Give me a break...this is getting pathetic.

He doesn't get slammed on the turf ... Astro turf doesn't exist anymore. He doesn't get hit in the head or get hit late or get hit in the lower body or get picked up and slammed to the ground. There is a reason he is playing at 39. Brees too. Manning too. They can play longer because they don't take the beating that QBs used to.

None of these Diva QBs would be having as nice a diet back then as they have nowadays...

They would be drinking Ovaltine with Pop Tarts for breakfast L0L

Originally posted by midrdan:

Here is where eras truly make a difference:

Between 1981 and 1996, the average offensive and defensive combined ranking of the eventual SB winner was 4. An example of this would be a team ranked No. 1 in offense and No. 3 in defense (for a combined ranking of 4)

Only one team during the 49ers dynasty era won a SB with a defense outside of the top 10 - the 1983 Raiders. Only one team won with an offense outside of the top 10 - the 1990 Giants.

You had to be stacked to win the SB in that era.

Conversely, between 2001 and 2016 (the Pats dynasty) the average offensive and defensive combined ranking of the eventual SB winner was 9.5. More than double a decline. You had teams in this era win the SB with the 25th rated defense (Giants) or the 20th rated offense (Steelers). And many more examples of lopsided teams (good on offense mediocre on defense or vice versa).

The 2007 Giants, who toppled the all time amazing undefeated Patriots are the only team ever to win a SB finishing outside the top 10 in both offense (14th) and defense (17th) rankings. By comparison, the 1989 Saints finished better than the Giants in both categories - and finished 9-7 - and missed the playoffs.

The show back then was for the elite. Now anyone can participate. It waters down what the Patriots have accomplished.

Good post.

I give the pats a ton of credit for crafting a plan that dominates in this watered down era....but this is a parity/mediocre league now. They have the perfect storm of an all time coach, all time QB and also a QB willing to take less than market value to help control that cap.

Half teams used to really struggle to win big. Take the Coreyll chargers for example. They had an historic offense but didn't bring a defense and it resulted in one conference final appearances. They we're basically the Brees Saints and that team won a title in today's NFL.

Originally posted by Niners816:
Good post.

I give the pats a ton of credit for crafting a plan that dominates in this watered down era....but this is a parity/mediocre league now. They have the perfect storm of an all time coach, all time QB and also a QB willing to take less than market value to help control that cap.

Half teams used to really struggle to win big. Take the Coreyll chargers for example. They had an historic offense but didn't bring a defense and it resulted in one conference final appearances. They we're basically the Brees Saints and that team won a title in today's NFL.

Damn, all of this makes too much sense and the bold is hard to make a case against... "it is what it is"

Great combo HC/QB taking advantage of #WateredDownEra, and there isn't a dominant Ravens defense (Lewis in prime) to get in their way anymore.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
How many rings does Joe have if he were able to stay healthy? 94 easily. Throw in 1 more between 90-94 and he likely has 6. The softer league rules has put some years on Brady's career so while I think it's neck and neck Joe just was just a bit more dominant. Brady's claim is a longer career.

If NE won in 07 there would be no debate though. 6 rings, 1 of 2 undefeated years, a back to back. So close yet so far away. Tom's career isn't over yet and if they repeat next year his argument for GOAT increases.

for brady - pats would've had a great chance winning in 2008. pats had virtually same 07 roster and schedule was very weak that year. and who knows what 2009 would've been?

there's no debate because at the end of the day 7 SB appearance is 3 more than 4. and 5 is better than 4. and SB is just a part of the narrative. you gotta look at the whole package.

Originally posted by LVJay:
None of these Diva QBs would be having as nice a diet back then as they have nowadays...

They would be drinking Ovaltine with Pop Tarts for breakfast L0L

that's true, so this is why it's so hard to compare era to era. because we may never know how montana will look like with today's diet. and many of today's players don't have a crazy diet like brady does. i assume big ben isn't eating avocado ice cream.

IMO you have to take 'what if' scenarios out of the debate. just use the eye test, watch the film, watched what they've done on the field against the competition. whenever i do that rodgers looks like the most talented QB(slightly edges out elway). manning's game has the highest degree of difficulty (greatest mad scientist).

but brady is the GOAT. that's how viewed montana. i always thought marino was a better passer, but montana was better. it's because you can't measure the mental side of the player. and whether you guys like it or not, brady's been crowned as the GOAT. these are some of the QBs who thinks brady is the GOAT.

Rodgers, Bradshaw, Aikman, Kelly, Esiason, Fouts, Tarkenton, Theisman, Marino, Dilfer, Roethlisberger, McNabb, Warner, Young, Simms, Hasselbeck, Gannon, Jaworski, Moon, and much more.

Rodgers on the GOAT
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/aaron-rodgers-reveals-his-choice-for-the-greatest-quarterback-ever/

Originally posted by Niners816:

The cap didn't start until 1993 and really didn't start effecting the top teams until 96 or so. As late as 1994, our team was absolutely stacked. The Cowboys were loaded with multiple HOFer and even that 1996 pack team looked like an elite group. They had multiple HOFer. I hated them but they were loaded and the NFL is really kinda lucky Sterling Sharpe had his career ended in 94 or that pack team coulda won a couple. Holmgren had them primed and Favre with the same exception of that first year with the Vikings never looked better.

IMO, the league as a whole was really strong up til the mid 90s. By the late 90s the cap took its toll and gives us the league we have today.

No that dallas team was not in the same league as the early seventies dallas teams not even close. Who were the hofers on d? Back in the day dallas put out hayes staubach walt garrison on d bob lilly chuck howley lee roy jordan and more. Each of those guys is a 15M player today except staubach who would be 25M. No one can afford it

Originally posted by genus49:

What bluff? Do you actually watch him play?

He maneuvers the pocket like a pro. Calls out his protection pre snap, steps up and moves around to avoid pressure to get the ball down the field. Gets the ball out quick when it needs to leave quick.

There's a reason why with the same OL in place in 2008 Matt Cassel who is more athletically talented than Brady was sacked more than twice as much as Brady did behind the same OL the year prior.

So what things did Montana do in the pocket that Brady doesnt?

Thanks for trying to have a serious discussion and not just sling insults.

I am thinking more post snap habits than the presnap reads.

As i have said before, joe was a brilliant play faker. Not infrequently the cameras lost the
Ball in a niner game.

Joe looked off safeties as well as anyone. Joe felt pressure and could roll to escape and had that seemingly perfect instict to know when to extend the play and when to get yards with his feet.

Joe was very comfortable delivering throws from many unconventional on-the-run postures with superior accuracy. Brady just doesnt do that.

Likewise joes demeanor in the huddle and during the play was hardly ever flustered or irate. If a receiver bungled a third down catch he was just as likely to maintain composure and jog to the sideline as anyone. Is that a brady quality that appears often? You decide.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

No that dallas team was not in the same league as the early seventies dallas teams not even close. Who were the hofers on d? Back in the day dallas put out hayes staubach walt garrison on d bob lilly chuck howley lee roy jordan and more. Each of those guys is a 15M player today except staubach who would be 25M. No one can afford it

They had Charles Haley on all of their title teams and Deion sanders on their '95 squad.

Exactly my point. One. Look back at that early seventies doomsday defense. Count how many. At least four. And a hof defensive coach too. Landry.

And then there was the other side of the ball.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

Exactly my point. One. Look back at that early seventies doomsday defense. Count how many. At least four. And a hof defensive coach too. Landry.

Well, the 90s cowboys had like 6 HOFer in tota over like a 6 year span. Aikman, Irvin, emmitt, Larry Allen, Haley and Deion. The 60s-late 70s cowboys had a total of 7 and they all didn't play concurrently. 5 was the most they had at any one time.

Originally posted by midrdan:

Here is where eras truly make a difference:

Between 1981 and 1996, the average offensive and defensive combined ranking of the eventual SB winner was 4. An example of this would be a team ranked No. 1 in offense and No. 3 in defense (for a combined ranking of 4)

Only one team during the 49ers dynasty era won a SB with a defense outside of the top 10 - the 1983 Raiders. Only one team won with an offense outside of the top 10 - the 1990 Giants.

You had to be stacked to win the SB in that era.

Conversely, between 2001 and 2016 (the Pats dynasty) the average offensive and defensive combined ranking of the eventual SB winner was 9.5. More than double a decline. You had teams in this era win the SB with the 25th rated defense (Giants) or the 20th rated offense (Steelers). And many more examples of lopsided teams (good on offense mediocre on defense or vice versa).

The 2007 Giants, who toppled the all time amazing undefeated Patriots are the only team ever to win a SB finishing outside the top 10 in both offense (14th) and defense (17th) rankings. By comparison, the 1989 Saints finished better than the Giants in both categories - and finished 9-7 - and missed the playoffs.

The show back then was for the elite. Now anyone can participate. It waters down what the Patriots have accomplished.

Great post. Let's see what the Brady supporters have to say about this......well besides being in denial

Originally posted by natediaz:

that's true, so this is why it's so hard to compare era to era. because we may never know how montana will look like with today's diet. and many of today's players don't have a crazy diet like brady does. i assume big ben isn't eating avocado ice cream.

IMO you have to take 'what if' scenarios out of the debate. just use the eye test, watch the film, watched what they've done on the field against the competition. whenever i do that rodgers looks like the most talented QB(slightly edges out elway). manning's game has the highest degree of difficulty (greatest mad scientist).

but brady is the GOAT. that's how viewed montana. i always thought marino was a better passer, but montana was better. it's because you can't measure the mental side of the player. and whether you guys like it or not, brady's been crowned as the GOAT. these are some of the QBs who thinks brady is the GOAT.

Rodgers, Bradshaw, Aikman, Kelly, Esiason, Fouts, Tarkenton, Theisman, Marino, Dilfer, Roethlisberger, McNabb, Warner, Young, Simms, Hasselbeck, Gannon, Jaworski, Moon, and much more.

Rodgers on the GOAT
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/aaron-rodgers-reveals-his-choice-for-the-greatest-quarterback-ever/

So what those are just those quarterbacks opinions on who is the best that does not make it fact. Hell, I'll just take a poll of a bunch of analysts and students of the game or fans and say look at how many people think Montana is better. Makes no sense whatsoever but keep trying. Brady is not the best quarterback of all time sorry to break it to you buddy. He f**king lost two Super Bowl's. Another newsflash the patriots cheated and he was part of it. And here's yet another newsflash the tuck rule gave him yet another ring. And one more newsflash, he never could dominate a Super Bowl team And the teams Montana had to go through were much harder. Montana is the GOAT. a winner and as close to perfect a qb can get. Brady is not