Joe Montana Legacy Secured

Originally posted by Niners816:
Well, the 90s cowboys had like 6 HOFer in tota over like a 6 year span. Aikman, Irvin, emmitt, Larry Allen, Haley and Deion. The 60s-late 70s cowboys had a total of 7 and they all didn't play concurrently. 5 was the most they had at any one time.

I agree with your information, but I have to say -- it's bogus! I disagree with reality.

Apparently, Chuck Howley has been inducted into every hall of fame but the Pro football hall of fame.

And um excuse me but practically that entire offensive line were all pros / hof candidates -- Neely, Nye, Niland, + Wright.

Lance Alworth is in the Hall. Don't forget him.

Oh and guys like Lee Roy Jordan, Charlie Waters???? How many times do you need to make a pro bowl to get in the hall????

My general point is, that no modern team can afford to assemble a strong two way team in the salary cap era, like the above.

You generally have to go on one side of the ball or another.

the championship cowboy teams you mention simply are not close to that kind of depth -- quality all pros/hofer candidates EVERYWHERE.

That was rozelle era championship calibler teams. Maybe 2,3,4 in the whole league.

They slaughtered the normal teams, and had very memorable playoffs among themselves.

With the QB controversy going on, get Joe out of retirement, get a #5 for himself and shut up the brady fans.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Thanks for trying to have a serious discussion and not just sling insults.

I am thinking more post snap habits than the presnap reads.

As i have said before, joe was a brilliant play faker. Not infrequently the cameras lost the
Ball in a niner game.

Joe looked off safeties as well as anyone. Joe felt pressure and could roll to escape and had that seemingly perfect instict to know when to extend the play and when to get yards with his feet.

Joe was very comfortable delivering throws from many unconventional on-the-run postures with superior accuracy. Brady just doesnt do that.

Likewise joes demeanor in the huddle and during the play was hardly ever flustered or irate. If a receiver bungled a third down catch he was just as likely to maintain composure and jog to the sideline as anyone. Is that a brady quality that appears often? You decide.

The only thing you mentioned that Montana did that Brady doesn't do just as well if not better is rolling out and getting yards with his feet though Brady does it when he needs to.



Not to mention you praise Joe for his play outside of the pocket but this conversation started with you saying Joe does things IN the pocket that Brady doesn't lol...i'm confused why you'd then bring up things he was able to do outside the pocket?

Brady does just as well post snap, it's just that he's so good pre-snap that post snap he doesn't need these crazy plays. Russell Wilson makes some wtf plays, would you say he's better than Brady or Joe?

And you mention Joe's demeanor in the huddle/sidelines. Are you saying Brady is out there panicking? Honestly not sure how anyone who watches Brady play can say he doesn't keep his cool...or are you referring to his competitiveness as a negative?

Originally posted by JimA49ers:
With the QB controversy going on, get Joe out of retirement, get a #5 for himself and shut up the brady fans.

Yeah...

Originally posted by elguapo:

Originally posted by midrdan:
Here is where eras truly make a difference:

Between 1981 and 1996, the average offensive and defensive combined ranking of the eventual SB winner was 4. An example of this would be a team ranked No. 1 in offense and No. 3 in defense (for a combined ranking of 4)

Only one team during the 49ers dynasty era won a SB with a defense outside of the top 10 - the 1983 Raiders. Only one team won with an offense outside of the top 10 - the 1990 Giants.

You had to be stacked to win the SB in that era.

Conversely, between 2001 and 2016 (the Pats dynasty) the average offensive and defensive combined ranking of the eventual SB winner was 9.5. More than double a decline. You had teams in this era win the SB with the 25th rated defense (Giants) or the 20th rated offense (Steelers). And many more examples of lopsided teams (good on offense mediocre on defense or vice versa).

The 2007 Giants, who toppled the all time amazing undefeated Patriots are the only team ever to win a SB finishing outside the top 10 in both offense (14th) and defense (17th) rankings. By comparison, the 1989 Saints finished better than the Giants in both categories - and finished 9-7 - and missed the playoffs.

The show back then was for the elite. Now anyone can participate. It waters down what the Patriots have accomplished.

Great post. Let's see what the Brady supporters have to say about this......well besides being in denial

You guys are really having a hard time following logic huh?

You're comparing non salary cap era teams to salary cap era teams.

Is it easier to keep a star studded roster when you don't have a salary cap to get under or is it harder when you have a limit what you can pay your players and have to watch some of your top guys leave via free agency?

The idea that it waters down what the Pats have done when they're playing in the salary cap era and cannot keep some of their top talent is silly. If anything you can argue it's harder to win when the talent is spread out and your roster is constantly changing. Baseball is a perfect example of this. Are the Yankees that much better than the rest of the teams or did they have the money to sign every good player available and keep their own studs from leaving?

Originally posted by genus49:

The only thing you mentioned that Montana did that Brady doesn't do just as well if not better is rolling out and getting yards with his feet though Brady does it when he needs to.



Not to mention you praise Joe for his play outside of the pocket but this conversation started with you saying Joe does things IN the pocket that Brady doesn't lol...i'm confused why you'd then bring up things he was able to do outside the pocket?

Brady does just as well post snap, it's just that he's so good pre-snap that post snap he doesn't need these crazy plays. Russell Wilson makes some wtf plays, would you say he's better than Brady or Joe?

And you mention Joe's demeanor in the huddle/sidelines. Are you saying Brady is out there panicking? Honestly not sure how anyone who watches Brady play can say he doesn't keep his cool...or are you referring to his competitiveness as a negative?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/new-england-patriots/0ap2000000243422/Brady-s-boiling-point
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/even-tom-brady-yells-at-julian-edelman/
http://www.businessinsider.com/tom-brady-yells-receivers-jets-pats-2013-9

Try googling "Joe Montana yelling at receivers."

Tell me what you get.

Now, I am not saying screaming at receivers or a player is necessarily bad....But it just didn't seem to be Joe's style. And, maybe that fits into other intangible aspects of his achievements.

Originally posted by genus49:

Nice. Before knee surgery.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/new-england-patriots/0ap2000000243422/Brady-s-boiling-point
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/even-tom-brady-yells-at-julian-edelman/
http://www.businessinsider.com/tom-brady-yells-receivers-jets-pats-2013-9

Try googling "Joe Montana yelling at receivers."

Tell me what you get.

Now, I am not saying screaming at receivers or a player is necessarily bad....But it just didn't seem to be Joe's style. And, maybe that fits into other intangible aspects of his achievements.

I guess this is where we defer on calm and collected. I see nothing wrong with showing passion and being competitive and expecting your guys to be on the same page and do their job.

There is a difference in being mad at yourself and your team for failing to execute the way you know you can and moping and looking lost and scared when down/getting beat down. In fact some people can point at guys who don't show emotion as being indifferent. Eli Manning is one of those guys. He never really shows emotions and you have guys who respect that and plenty of others who think it sometimes comes off as if he doesn't care as much.

There's a reason every player on the team mentioned Brady as a reason they didn't collapse in the SB so you insinuating that he's not keeping it together is silly.

He's getting older, more mature.

Originally posted by McClusky:
This, I'm not really interested in arguing Brady over Montana. I'm arguing against bad arguments. I understand that this is a 49ers board, but that doesn't mean that poor arguments need go unchallenged. If you want to argue Montana over Brady there are plenty of good ways to do it, argue playstyle preference, argue the challenges to comparing eras, argue playoff statistical performance, argue concentrated success over a shorter period of time (ie. higher overall level of play, shorter duration). I'm not here to argue that Brady is the best, I think very good arguments can be made for Montana (or Rodgers for that matter).

However, don't try and caveat every ounce of one guy's resume, while giving the benefit of the doubt to the other guy in every instance. For example, why exactly does the hypothetical violence of the other era go against Brady's ability to stay healthy? He's healthier than almost everyone from his present era, and played 8 years before QB rules went into effect suffering one injury. What is there to indicate that injuries would have been a major factor in his career trajectory rather than it being an argument of convenience?

A week ago the arguments in here were that Brady has never led a GW TD drive in the clutch, now that he has it's a whole slew of other arguments. Consistent means for arguments and consistent application is what I look for. If robust conversations are going to happen on 49ers topics, they're not going to happen if people build huge house of cards arguments, or if they try to tell you that something that is red is blue. English seems pretty deeply invested in people never mentioning the bias that is present on this board. Not every pro-49ers argument has merit just by the nature of being pro-49ers.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000787722/article/even-aaron-rodgers-admits-tom-brady-is-the-goat

Paltry article. Reads like an elevator conversation.

Originally posted by elguapo:
So what those are just those quarterbacks opinions on who is the best that does not make it fact. Hell, I'll just take a poll of a bunch of analysts and students of the game or fans and say look at how many people think Montana is better. Makes no sense whatsoever but keep trying. Brady is not the best quarterback of all time sorry to break it to you buddy. He f**king lost two Super Bowl's. Another newsflash the patriots cheated and he was part of it. And here's yet another newsflash the tuck rule gave him yet another ring. And one more newsflash, he never could dominate a Super Bowl team And the teams Montana had to go through were much harder. Montana is the GOAT. a winner and as close to perfect a qb can get. Brady is not

so by your logic, Ali isn't the greatest boxer because he lost few fights, right? and i guess mark spitz is better than michael phelps because phelps had way more 2nd place than spitz?

football is the ultimate team sports. montana didn't win 4 SBs by himself. brady didn't win 5SBs by himself. it's the game of the inches and there are too many variables. when you determine the GOAT you look at everything. SB would count probably 50% of the argument. but there are other factors.

i don't want to get into deflategate because i know it's a hogwash. seriously, a 7 year old kid debunked everything. it's not a rocket science. and it's really retarded how they dragged this thing for so long. Brady played fine with a perfectly inflated football in SB 49 and SB 51. he did fine with this year with 28tds and only 2tds.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/new-england-patriots/0ap2000000243422/Brady-s-boiling-point
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/even-tom-brady-yells-at-julian-edelman/
http://www.businessinsider.com/tom-brady-yells-receivers-jets-pats-2013-9

Try googling "Joe Montana yelling at receivers."

Tell me what you get.

Now, I am not saying screaming at receivers or a player is necessarily bad....But it just didn't seem to be Joe's style. And, maybe that fits into other intangible aspects of his achievements.

i feel like joe flacco is closer to joe montana in terms of temperament. brady is a stone cold killer, and he is so competitive. dude breathes fire. brady has MJ like demeanor.

brady and montana's temperament are very different, but when the game is on the line things slow down for these 2 great players.

If it wasn't for two miracle catches by the Giants, Brady would have 7 Super Bowls.

Originally posted by mayo49:
If it wasn't for two miracle catches by the Giants, Brady would have 7 Super Bowls.

that's true, but brady also could've lost 49.

but brady would've won his 4th SB in 2006 if pats didn't collapse against the indy. they were leading 21-3 i believe. pats would've beaten the bears with rex grossman.

pats would've had a very easy road to SB in 2008 too.