Joe Montana Legacy Secured

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by natediaz:
you dont even have to watch the game to draw to a conclusion that the entire team got dominated including the QB in a 49-3 game. that's just like beating up lowly broncos 55-10. everybody crapped their pants including montana and rice. crap happens to a great player.

that giants team was something else. they were ferocious. BB figured niners out on the previous outing when they came back to beat them. BB made an adjustments. niners didn't.

I love how everyone s**ts on that Broncos team. They had the number 1 scoring defense and the number 3 defense based on yards. A HOF QB and was making their 3 SB appearance in 4 years.

Weren't the 49ers only favored by 3 or 3 1/2 points? It was supposed to be a close game according to the experts.

Originally posted by BobS:
Weren't the 49ers only favored by 3 or 3 1/2 points? It was supposed to be a close game according to the experts.

i believe broncos were -2.5 against my seahawks in the SB. but we crushed them. they were no match. we were faster, hungrier, and game got out of hand fast. we can play them 10 times and we've would've beaten them 10 times. they didn't belong on the same field. and that's how niners and broncos were back then.

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:

Originally posted by theduke85:

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
Again -- all these Brady nuthuggers blinded by his longetivy. So crown Tim Duncan better than Jordan while you are at it. So desperate to prove that their boy Brady is the greatest ever. That is simply not a FACT. It's only your blinded opinion.

Well, Tim Duncan hasn't won more championships than Jordan, so that is an awful analogy.

The only "nuthuggers" are the one clinging to the belief that Montana is still king. The rest of the world has accepted that Brady is better. It's time for 49ers fans to do the same. Again, it's just a matter of sportsmanship.

Substitute Bill Russell then for Duncan. Based on your logic Otto Graham is the best ever QB.

When Bill Russell won his first title (1957), there were literally 8 teams in the entire league. There are quadruple the number of teams in the NFL now. When he won his last title (1968), there still only 14 teams in the league. It's hard to take his numbers seriously. The same applies to Graham (his first title, in 1946, came in a league with only 8 teams in it).

Clearly, you have to use some common sense and adjust for circumstances. It is silly to compare the number of championships straight up when the leagues were so dramatically different. Having a 1/8 chance at winning a title is way different than having a 1/32 chance of winning a title.

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
26 ALL PRO's for Brady, 13 for Montana. Not Pro-Bowlers. ALL PRO'S. And these are all unique individuals.

Vegasodds101 already addressed this point. You are comparing the salary cap era (with high roster turnover) to the non-salary cap era.

Ronnie Lott played alongside Joe Montana from 1981 to 1990. That's ten seasons. He was an All-Pro 7 times during that span.

Rodney Harrison played for the Patriots from 2003 to 2008. He was an All-Pro once (2003).
Devin McCourty has played for the Patriots from 2010 through 2016. He has been an All-Pro three times (2010, 2013, 2016).

Your logic: "Tom Brady played with 2 All-Pro safeties. Joe Montana only had 1 All-Pro safety. Tom had more help."
The reality: "Montana had 7 seasons of All-Pro safety help. Brady had 4 seasons of All-Pro safety help."

Of course the number of unique All-Pro teammates is going to be higher. The salary cap means that they can't keep all of the All-Pro players they acquire -- they are going to leave free agency or get traded away (Moss was an All-Pro that was traded away, Welker was an All-Pro that they let walk in FA, Jamie Collins was an All-Pro that was traded away, Logan Mankins was an All-Pro that was traded away, etc).

EDIT: also, let me preemptively say something here. Walsh had the well-known philosophy of "trading away a player a year too early, rather than a year too late." That is completely different than having to let go of a player purely because of financial constraints and "you can't pay everybody".

Originally posted by theduke85:
Vegasodds101 already addressed this point. You are comparing the salary cap era (with high roster turnover) to the non-salary cap era.

Ronnie Lott played alongside Joe Montana from 1981 to 1990. That's ten seasons. He was an All-Pro 7 times during that span.

Rodney Harrison played for the Patriots from 2003 to 2008. He was an All-Pro once (2003).
Devin McCourty has played for the Patriots from 2010 through 2016. He has been an All-Pro three times (2010, 2013, 2016).

Your logic: "Tom Brady played with 2 All-Pro safeties. Joe Montana only had 1 All-Pro safety. Tom had more help."
The reality: "Montana had 7 seasons of All-Pro safety help. Brady had 4 seasons of All-Pro safety help."

Of course the number of unique All-Pro teammates is going to be higher. The salary cap means that they can't keep all of the All-Pro players they acquire -- they are going to leave free agency or get traded away (Moss was an All-Pro that was traded away, Welker was an All-Pro that they let walk in FA, Jamie Collins was an All-Pro that was traded away, Logan Mankins was an All-Pro that was traded away, etc).

EDIT: also, let me preemptively say something here. Walsh had the well-known philosophy of "trading away a player a year too early, rather than a year too late." That is completely different than having to let go of a player purely because of financial constraints and "you can't pay everybody".

Exactly...not to mention the whole idea of claiming one guy had more talent because he had more all pro players is ridiculous.

Some of the all pro players Brady had helping him out

Matt Slater - dude has 1 career reception
Vinateri
Gostkowski
Lawer Milloy - played with Brady 2 years
Ty Law - played with Brady 4 years
Revis - 1 year with Brady

That's 6 guys right there. Boy Brady was just carried by those guys...

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by theduke85:
Vegasodds101 already addressed this point. You are comparing the salary cap era (with high roster turnover) to the non-salary cap era.

Ronnie Lott played alongside Joe Montana from 1981 to 1990. That's ten seasons. He was an All-Pro 7 times during that span.

Rodney Harrison played for the Patriots from 2003 to 2008. He was an All-Pro once (2003).
Devin McCourty has played for the Patriots from 2010 through 2016. He has been an All-Pro three times (2010, 2013, 2016).

Your logic: "Tom Brady played with 2 All-Pro safeties. Joe Montana only had 1 All-Pro safety. Tom had more help."
The reality: "Montana had 7 seasons of All-Pro safety help. Brady had 4 seasons of All-Pro safety help."

Of course the number of unique All-Pro teammates is going to be higher. The salary cap means that they can't keep all of the All-Pro players they acquire -- they are going to leave free agency or get traded away (Moss was an All-Pro that was traded away, Welker was an All-Pro that they let walk in FA, Jamie Collins was an All-Pro that was traded away, Logan Mankins was an All-Pro that was traded away, etc).

EDIT: also, let me preemptively say something here. Walsh had the well-known philosophy of "trading away a player a year too early, rather than a year too late." That is completely different than having to let go of a player purely because of financial constraints and "you can't pay everybody".

Exactly...not to mention the whole idea of claiming one guy had more talent because he had more all pro players is ridiculous.

Some of the all pro players Brady had helping him out

Matt Slater - dude has 1 career reception
Vinateri
Gostkowski
Lawer Milloy - played with Brady 2 years
Ty Law - played with Brady 4 years
Revis - 1 year with Brady

That's 6 guys right there. Boy Brady was just carried by those guys...

And..

Rodney Harrison
Richar Seymour
Tedy Bruschi
Logan Mankins
Rob Gronkowski
Randy Moss
Wes Welker
Vince Wilfork
Brandon Meriweather
Mike Vrabel
Jerod Mayo
Sebastian Vollmer
Asante Samuel
Devin McCourty
Aqib Talib
Jamie Collins
Donta Hightower
Malcolm Butler

LMAO you make it sound like these guys are overrated and Brady singlehandedly carried his team all those years whereas all the other 49ers who didn't make "All-Pro" shoudl have. John Taylor NEVER made All-Pro as a WR -- only on special teams as a KR/PR.

usually when you talk about 'brady doeesn't have alot of help!' - it's about the offense, not defense. pats early dynasty had plenty of good defensive players. none of them were HOF level, but they were consisted of hard working team oriented players. bruschi is a great example. first, pats are in a salary cap era. they can't keep great players for long. seymour is a great example. dude was only like 28 or 29. hightower? another example. he'll be gone. this is the fundamental difference between the niners and pats. pats can't keep anyone because they don't pay anybody top market money. and they don't want to keep these top $ players because they would rather have several B players over bunch of superstars. back then you could keep whoever you wanted.

anyway let's look at some of these players -

Moss - basically had 1 great year for brady. in 2009, brady sucked because he was coming from a season ending injury. and then moss was let go in 2010 because he was no longer effective.

welker - he did nothing before brady. he's a product of brady. he earned brady's trust and became brady's go to guy. but he basically cost brady a SB. it was catchable ball. he had 2 hands on it. 9 out of 10 times he catches that ball.

talib - didn't he get hurt in the playoffs? i think pats fans don't forgive him for that.

gronk - as great as gronk is he missed the playoffs way too many times. brady won without him this year. brady posted great number without him this year.

vollmer - very overrated. dude gets exposed in big games.

brady did play with many great players in his 16+ year career. but reality is that it doesn't matter who brady plays with. brady was 1 call away from going to SB in 2006 and he was throwing to dudes like reche caldwell. as far as offense goes, all brady needs is a smart player who won't miss the assignment. hogan, edelman, amendola, etc can be made. this is why brady is great. brady made edelman. edelman wouldn't be edelman if he was playing for texans. they worked and worked and perfected the chemistry.

Originally posted by natediaz:

Originally posted by BobS:
Weren't the 49ers only favored by 3 or 3 1/2 points? It was supposed to be a close game according to the experts.

i believe broncos were -2.5 against my seahawks in the SB. but we crushed them. they were no match. we were faster, hungrier, and game got out of hand fast. we can play them 10 times and we've would've beaten them 10 times. they didn't belong on the same field. and that's how niners and broncos were back then.

The defense stymied Peyton / Broncos' offense. I doubt your offense was anything special that day against a mediocre Bronco defense. Note, that was against a lousy defense. Whereas, Montana had to battle a dominant defense... got 5 TDs and the MVP vs the number one defense.

Not to mention, Manning chokes in SBs just like Brady choked twice to the Giants / Peyton's little brother, Eli.

Brady / Patriots should be thankful your team CHOKED in the SB in the end / final seconds.

Montana never choked in a SB, that's what separates him from other elite QBs. He may not be the overall GOAT, but no one can touch his SB records. He was flawless and only knew how to win. That's a huge part of his legacy that no one can touch. NO ONE! NOT EVER...

Originally posted by theduke85:

Vegasodds101 already addressed this point. You are comparing the salary cap era (with high roster turnover) to the non-salary cap era.

Ronnie Lott played alongside Joe Montana from 1981 to 1990. That's ten seasons. He was an All-Pro 7 times during that span.

Rodney Harrison played for the Patriots from 2003 to 2008. He was an All-Pro once (2003).
Devin McCourty has played for the Patriots from 2010 through 2016. He has been an All-Pro three times (2010, 2013, 2016).

Your logic: "Tom Brady played with 2 All-Pro safeties. Joe Montana only had 1 All-Pro safety. Tom had more help."
The reality: "Montana had 7 seasons of All-Pro safety help. Brady had 4 seasons of All-Pro safety help."

Of course the number of unique All-Pro teammates is going to be higher. The salary cap means that they can't keep all of the All-Pro players they acquire -- they are going to leave free agency or get traded away (Moss was an All-Pro that was traded away, Welker was an All-Pro that they let walk in FA, Jamie Collins was an All-Pro that was traded away, Logan Mankins was an All-Pro that was traded away, etc).

EDIT: also, let me preemptively say something here. Walsh had the well-known philosophy of "trading away a player a year too early, rather than a year too late." That is completely different than having to let go of a player purely because of financial constraints and "you can't pay everybody".

Not trying to be a jerk or a "no it all"...I just hate when facts aren't straight. An All Pro is an AP voted team, the best of the best to make 1 team in each individual season. Sometimes people call pro bowlers all pro. Ronnie Lott was "All Pro" 6 times, Devin McCourty has never been All Pro. Lawyer Milloy was All Pro once in 1999 before Brady. Rodney Harrison is the sole safety All Pro during Brady years. Again the original poster is getting pro bowls and all pros mixed up as they are different. One example is Andy Dalton has a pro bowl star next to his name for 2016, he only went to the Pro Bowl after many other QBs backed out (or made SB) he was the 7th alternate...yes the 7th. He is not an All Pro, he really isn't even a pro bowler. Pro Football Reference is best stat site. A * next to a players season is a pro bowl appearance. A + sign means All Pro.

Brady has had 23 All Pro seasons as his teammates in his 15 playing seasons. 10 on offense: Gronk -3, Welker-2, Mankins-2, Light-2, and Moss-1. ST's All Pros: Vinatieri-1, Ghostkowski-1, Slater -1 (this year). Finally defense 10 All Pros: Seymour-3, Law-1, Harrison-1, Vrabel-1, Samuel-1, Wilfork-1, Mayo-1, and Revis -1.


Montana from 1980 to 1990 had 19 All Pro teammates, 9 on offense...too tired to go through all details but Rice was All Pro 5 times in that span.

Vegas, I know All-Pro and Pro Bowl aren't the same thing. McCourty was second-team All-Pro in the three years I listed. I know technically that's not "first-team", but at that point we are just splitting hairs.

Originally posted by Vegasodds101:

Originally posted by theduke85:
Vegasodds101 already addressed this point. You are comparing the salary cap era (with high roster turnover) to the non-salary cap era.

Ronnie Lott played alongside Joe Montana from 1981 to 1990. That's ten seasons. He was an All-Pro 7 times during that span.

Rodney Harrison played for the Patriots from 2003 to 2008. He was an All-Pro once (2003).
Devin McCourty has played for the Patriots from 2010 through 2016. He has been an All-Pro three times (2010, 2013, 2016).

Your logic: "Tom Brady played with 2 All-Pro safeties. Joe Montana only had 1 All-Pro safety. Tom had more help."
The reality: "Montana had 7 seasons of All-Pro safety help. Brady had 4 seasons of All-Pro safety help."

Of course the number of unique All-Pro teammates is going to be higher. The salary cap means that they can't keep all of the All-Pro players they acquire -- they are going to leave free agency or get traded away (Moss was an All-Pro that was traded away, Welker was an All-Pro that they let walk in FA, Jamie Collins was an All-Pro that was traded away, Logan Mankins was an All-Pro that was traded away, etc).

EDIT: also, let me preemptively say something here. Walsh had the well-known philosophy of "trading away a player a year too early, rather than a year too late." That is completely different than having to let go of a player purely because of financial constraints and "you can't pay everybody".

Not trying to be a jerk or a "no it all"...I just hate when facts aren't straight. An All Pro is an AP voted team, the best of the best to make 1 team in each individual season. Sometimes people call pro bowlers all pro. Ronnie Lott was "All Pro" 6 times, Devin McCourty has never been All Pro. Lawyer Milloy was All Pro once in 1999 before Brady. Rodney Harrison is the sole safety All Pro during Brady years. Again the original poster is getting pro bowls and all pros mixed up as they are different. One example is Andy Dalton has a pro bowl star next to his name for 2016, he only went to the Pro Bowl after many other QBs backed out (or made SB) he was the 7th alternate...yes the 7th. He is not an All Pro, he really isn't even a pro bowler. Pro Football Reference is best stat site. A * next to a players season is a pro bowl appearance. A + sign means All Pro.

Brady has had 23 All Pro seasons as his teammates in his 15 playing seasons. 10 on offense: Gronk -3, Welker-2, Mankins-2, Light-2, and Moss-1. ST's All Pros: Vinatieri-1, Ghostkowski-1, Slater -1 (this year). Finally defense 10 All Pros: Seymour-3, Law-1, Harrison-1, Vrabel-1, Samuel-1, Wilfork-1, Mayo-1, and Revis -1.

Montana from 1980 to 1990 had 19 All Pro teammates, 9 on offense...too tired to go through all details but Rice was All Pro 5 times in that span.

Do you guys f**king read? Devin McCourty was an "All-Pro" 3 times. I didn't say Pro-Bowler, I said "All-Pro". He was only a 2x Pro Bowler.

Why the hell are you saying he isn't? Are you assuming I was thinking "Pro Bowler".

And what is this nonsense?

Your logic: "Tom Brady played with 2 All-Pro safeties. Joe Montana only had 1 All-Pro safety. Tom had more help."
The reality: "Montana had 7 seasons of All-Pro safety help. Brady had 4 seasons of All-Pro safety help."

I never said that. You assumed it. So Brady had 5 seasons of All-Pro Linebacker help, Montana had 1. Does that even it out for you? I was just pointing out the tons of talent Brady had around him with peeps thinking he played with sorry ass players (John Taylor is a stud and Wes Welker and Julian Edelman weren't? lolz). and carried everyone on his back all these years while Montana was surrounded by the best of the best. Total nonsense.

Maybe the next round of stats should be someone coming up with the # of pro bowlers and all-pros each QB played against over the years.

Originally posted by LVJay:

The defense stymied Peyton / Broncos' offense. I doubt your offense was anything special that day against a mediocre Bronco defense. Note, that was against a lousy defense. Whereas, Montana had to battle a dominant defense... got 5 TDs and the MVP vs the number one defense.

Not to mention, Manning chokes in SBs just like Brady choked twice to the Giants / Peyton's little brother, Eli.

Brady / Patriots should be thankful your team CHOKED in the SB in the end / final seconds.

Montana never choked in a SB, that's what separates him from other elite QBs. He may not be the overall GOAT, but no one can touch his SB records. He was flawless and only knew how to win. That's a huge part of his legacy that no one can touch. NO ONE! NOT EVER...

He's the best in Super Bowls....ok? Nobody is arguing that.

Just don't add the "he only knew how to win" part when Brady has more wins than him.

And Brady didn't "choke". He stood on the sidelines in both games as his defense lost the lead he got them after getting killed all game long. Those games are both wins if Pats D gets to Eli or knocks the ball away from Tyree or if Welker makes the catch in 2011. Hell if they had a healthy Gronk he may catch the game winning pass there at the end of that game. Instead he was just a step too late.

Montana should've won. His teams were way more talented and better coached than the teams we played in the SB.

You see the defense Brady had in 2011? How many times did Montana win a SB with a defense outside the top 10 let alone bottom 20?

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:

Do you guys f**king read? Devin McCourty was an "All-Pro" 3 times. I didn't say Pro-Bowler, I said "All-Pro". He was only a 2x Pro Bowler.

Why the hell are you saying he isn't? Are you assuming I was thinking "Pro Bowler".

And what is this nonsense?

Your logic: "Tom Brady played with 2 All-Pro safeties. Joe Montana only had 1 All-Pro safety. Tom had more help."
The reality: "Montana had 7 seasons of All-Pro safety help. Brady had 4 seasons of All-Pro safety help."

I never said that. You assumed it. So Brady had 5 seasons of All-Pro Linebacker help, Montana had 1. Does that even it out for you? I was just pointing out the tons of talent Brady had around him with peeps thinking he played with sorry ass players (John Taylor is a stud and Wes Welker and Julian Edelman weren't? lolz). and carried everyone on his back all these years while Montana was surrounded by the best of the best. Total nonsense.

Maybe the next round of stats should be someone coming up with the # of pro bowlers and all-pros each QB played against over the years.

So now the 49ers in the 80s weren't incredibly talented?

How many times did Joe have a defense outside the top 10?

He had players who were perfect scheme fits for an offense that still wasn't that common at the time. The OL was great and while Jerry wasn't there the whole time I don't think we have to argue that Brady never had anyone like Jerry.

What's better having an all pro here and there but weaker unit overall or less all pro selections but overall talent as a unit?

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by LVJay:
The defense stymied Peyton / Broncos' offense. I doubt your offense was anything special that day against a mediocre Bronco defense. Note, that was against a lousy defense. Whereas, Montana had to battle a dominant defense... got 5 TDs and the MVP vs the number one defense.

Not to mention, Manning chokes in SBs just like Brady choked twice to the Giants / Peyton's little brother, Eli.

Brady / Patriots should be thankful your team CHOKED in the SB in the end / final seconds.

Montana never choked in a SB, that's what separates him from other elite QBs. He may not be the overall GOAT, but no one can touch his SB records. He was flawless and only knew how to win. That's a huge part of his legacy that no one can touch. NO ONE! NOT EVER...

He's the best in Super Bowls....ok? Nobody is arguing that.

Just don't add the "he only knew how to win" part when Brady has more wins than him.

And Brady didn't "choke". He stood on the sidelines in both games as his defense lost the lead he got them after getting killed all game long. Those games are both wins if Pats D gets to Eli or knocks the ball away from Tyree or if Welker makes the catch in 2011. Hell if they had a healthy Gronk he may catch the game winning pass there at the end of that game. Instead he was just a step too late.

Montana should've won. His teams were way more talented and better coached than the teams we played in the SB.

You see the defense Brady had in 2011? How many times did Montana win a SB with a defense outside the top 10 let alone bottom 20?

1) "Just don't add the "he only knew how to win" part when Brady has more wins than him."

Why not?! I'm talking SBs here (in the game) i never mentioned anything about quantity (you brought that up). I'm talking quality. Montana only knew how to win once he got there, game over. He won (4-0, no INTs) and didn't need overtime to get the job done. Plus, if it was so easy to win 4 in one decade, then I don't see why Brady / BB couldn't do it. Ask Terry Bradshaw, it's rare to win 4 in ONE decade.

Hmmmm, I wonder what Montana / Walsh would've done if they also had 14 + years together...

2) "And Brady didn't "choke". He stood on the sidelines in both games as his defense lost the lead"

So I guess McNabb, Delhomme and Warner just stood on the sidelines and watched special teams lose the game for them

3) Since you brought up the "if" scenarios AGAIN... "if" Roger Craig doesn't fumble, we're talking about a 3peat for Montana ... I don't believe Brady / BB has ever came close to a 3peat (I'm guessing).

BTW, remember that first SB Brady won (the Spy Gate one), the one against the Greatest Show On Turf? Well, I'm pretty sure those Patriots teams had quite a few HOF (or future HOF). You can't stop the Greatest Show On Turf with just scheme and solid players.

Also, those choke jobs against Eli / Giants... those Giants teams weren't great (wildcard teams both times), 10-6 the first time they met and lucky to sneak into the playoffs (9-7) the second time they beat Patriots. Patriots were favorites to win both times (Undefeated / 13-3 in regular seasons). Those Giants' defenses often gave up 27 or more points... those weren't dominant defenses. Brady just choked both times by not putting up more points and throwing a costly pick.

The Patriots defenses only gave up 17 / 21 points in those SBs... maybe Brady would've helped more if he put up more points than 14 / 17 and by not throwing an INT .... You mentioned that "Montana should've won"... yeah.... Brady should've won too against that lucky Giants team that snuck in as a WILDCARD at 9-7.

It's not like the Giants had their number, in 2007 Patriots beat them 38-35 the last game of the regular season to go undefeated. However, he choked in those SBs...

When it's all said and done (just give it more time), we'll all come to find out that the Patriots had a lot of HOF talent on a lot of those teams Brady played with...

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by Vegasodds101:

To original Al poster, Brady has not had 26 all pro teammates, maybe pro bowl teammates but that's a big difference. I guessing you made that same mistake with Montana....

Just on offense Brady had 24 pro bowl teammates in 15 seasons, (some of those are obviously the same player).

Just on offense Montana had 21 pro bowl teammates in 11 seasons (49ers),

Bottom line the original poster pointing out that Brady had 26 pro bowlers and Montana only 13 is irrelevant. Not sure those numbers are even correct but that number would make sense since the constant changeover in today's salary cap era.

I want him to address that to show how ridiculous the statement is. A guy getting an all pro nod when he plays with Brady for less than 5 years means what? 2 of them for the Pats were kickers, a bunch were special team standouts. Some guys played with Brady for 1 year then left.

Not sure how anyone can pretend that a Joe had less talent during his career with the niners with a straight face.

Lolz you think i pulled those numbers out of my ass? Unless wikipedia is wrong:

26 ALL PRO's for Brady, 13 for Montana. Not Pro-Bowlers. ALL PRO'S. And these are all unique individuals.

And yes that includes a light sprinkle of kickers and special teams for both players/teams and John Taylor only in on special teams.

Doesn't mean anything? WOW. Brady had an all universe roster in 2007 and still got punked by Eli.

Here's a little nugget you can digest. It should now be updated to "3" of the worst ever:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/01/nfl-new-england-patriots-tom-brady-super-bowl-history-interceptions-stats-panthers-seahawks

This guy can't admit he's wrong. He dismisses cheating as well "everyone does it not just the patriots". That is b******t. And by his logic I guess everyone's a murderer but only if you get caught. It's too funny this guy cracks me up. There are some teams that don't even cheat and the fact of the matter is the patriots did this for years and years. the patriots did in fact get a huge competitive advantage. The fact that they are still good after the cheating has supposedly stop doesn't mean s**t. It could be a reflection on the competition which it most certainly is.

There is nobody good in the AFC. What the Pittsburgh Steelers? With no defense? The Kansas City Chiefs? With a questionable offense? Such a weak argument it's not even funny. He cannot admit he is wrong about the all pro players as well. He is wrong he should just admit it but obviously he can't because his arguments are weak and his posts are all b******t. 49 is in complete denial and he is so biased it's ridiculous.