Joe Montana Legacy Secured

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Time to move on from the glory years and come to terms with reality about what we are today.

Why you bring me down man.

Originally posted by Young2Rice:

Time to move on from the glory years and come to terms with reality about what we are today.

Ftfy

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

Originally posted by BudValentino:
The only thing we can hang our hat on is that the path to our super bowls were much more difficult. The 49ers ,The Redskins, Bears, and Giants were all favored to win the super bowl at one time or another, during our 4 super bowl wins in the 80's. The Reggie White Eagles weren't chop liver either. New England's only competition has been the Colts, Ravens and Steelers with New England favored to win the super bowl every year. The 90's we had to battle great Cowboy teams and oh yeah, Green Bay Packers.
If the 49ers had played the Caliber of teams the Patriots played, we'd have 6 or 7 Super Bowls. Not to take anything away from the Patriots success, but the 49ers had to really battle all time great teams to reach their success.

Originally posted by jcs:
Think of how many different teams they've won it with. With fa and the salary cap they've won what was expected to be nearly impossible.

For a 4 year period, the loser of the NFC Championship Game went on to play/win the Super Bowl (with one exception):

1983 - Redskins beat 49ers
1984 - 49ers beat Bears
1985 - Bears beat *Giants (*divisional round not NFCC)
1986 - Giants beat Redskins
1987 - Redskins beat Vikings

So basically, those teams were just right there and after losing the NFCC (or divisional round for NYG), came back and won it all the next year.

The 1984 49ers shut out the Bears 23-0 in the NFCC, which led to the juggernaut 1985 Bears that smashed teams.

The 1985 Bears shut out the Giants and Rams by a combined score of 45-0, then smashed the Patsies 46-10 in the Bowl.

The 1986 Giants went on a tear crushing our Niners 49-3, then shutting out the Redskins 17-0 before beating the Donkies 39-20.

The 1987 Redskins one two close playoff games before whipping the Donkies 42-10.

So the Niners winning 4 out of 10 in this decade was incredible in hindsight. Basically won 4 because of Joe Montana's greatness.....otherwise would have been a 2 or 3 SB win max.

BTW, the '80s were a decade of a QB having to take on another team not another QB.

Montana crushed the likes of Marino & Elway in Super Bowl contests, but had two nail biters against Ken Anderson and Boomer Esiason's Bengals.

The rest of the NFC winners in that decade featured QBs who have not and will not be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Meanwhile the AFC has Marino, Elway, Kelly, in the HoF with Dan Fouts as well for a non SB participant.

I can't think of another HoF QB in the entire NFC outside of Montana which goes to show the tremendous battles he had to face.

Just think of Jim Kelly, whose only peer as a QB would be Troy Aikman..........Jeff Hostetler & Mark Rypien are game managers at best. Kelly was 0-4 in the big game and is in the HoF.

Meanwhile in the '00s and '10s, you have Brady winning SBs merely because he's a better QB than most of the AFC and every NFC QB he's battled.....and barely beating them.

These Jags & Vikings teams would be legit SB teams had they been around 10-15+ years at least........definitely back in '80s and '90s. Brady beats the Jags by 4 at home where he's vastly superior a QB to Bortles.........definite loss many years ago.

The years teams bring a ferocious D with competent QB play he's lost........a few Ravens and Broncos teams come to mind, along with NYG. Mostly QBs lesser than Brady with the lone exception of Peyton Manning on Denver & Indy....but only when those teams were outright better than his team.

Also consider that the 49ers could not get past the Giants in 1990 NFCC primarily because their running game with Craig dropped off enough that the Giants could contain him in nickel/dime the entire game. An in prime Rice, Taylor, Jones blow away anything Brady played with and yet it wasn't enough to do much versus NYG. You needed an RB to ball back then.....couldn't just throw it 50-60 times against a great defense and win. Steve Young is a one time champion because he barely had a great RB outside of Watters & Hearst.

It's a debate that can be spun many different ways. I've always been ok with saying "Montana best of the '80s", "Brady best of the '00s/10s".......Brady might have been very good in the '80s and Montana for sure in the modern game.

On a different but final note:

I like to compare QBs qualitatively.........beyond SB rings. After all, we acknowledge Marino as a f'n beast QB , probably GOAT who never won a chip. Maybe not better than Montana or Brady or maybe Peyton but sure as hell better than most of the 30-40+ QBs with rings.

So why is Brady and Montana all about 5 wins vs 4 wins or 2 losses vs. 0 losses....?

On pure eye test/skill:

Montana can improvise out of pocket better.
Montana superior mobility by far (3rd all time rusher in SB game behind McNair & Kap....5/59 yards against Dolphins!).
Montana better footwork/drop back.
Montana never used shotgun (neither did Young).

Give it a tie for intangible/clutch.
Give it a tie for reading defenses, calling audibles, etc. .
Give it a general tie for throwing the football.

Give Brady an edge for being a little bit taller. (LOL)

Serious question:

What does Brady do now or before that is better than Montana, skill wise?

There are people who have very serious debates saying Young was better than Montana (and it has to be respected), but then turn around and say Brady is better than Montana in the next breath.

Wish we could discuss skills more often. More intellectually satisfying!

Defenses were never as complex as they are today. Brady is the best pre snap QB of all time, Montana was great but he wasn't figuring out teams in that way. Usually his teams were dominate. Brady is doing this with guys like amendola

Are we really doing this again? I thought this thread died for a reason...because it became clear that it was no longer 1A/1B situation but Brady took the next step to being alone at the top above Joe.

Yes the game was tougher back in those days in terms of the rules. It was not tougher in terms of QBs getting killed. Joe got hurt on a play which would be legal today so why are we assuming that he can suddenly excel and stay healthy in today's NFL when guys are bigger, stronger and faster?

Tom Brady is playing some of the best football of his career at 40...how many people can say that? How many QBs have done this? He led the league in yards and was near the top in almost every important passing category this year.

You also forget that Brady and the Patriots are dealing with something the 49ers didn't have to deal with when Joe was winning - the salary cap. It makes it very difficult to keep some of your best players and it requires Brady to re-build the trust and chemistry with guys he may not be playing with often.

His ability to move in the pocket to avoid the passrush is insane. His ability to read the field, pre and post snap is off the charts. Not sure why not using the shotgun is a detriment...offenses have changed, defenses have changed. As jcs said above, they're very different and more complex these days so you can't say they're equal when one guy is having to read much more complicated schemes and fit the ball into tighter windows.

At the end of the day you have to judge each guy based on what they've done and Brady's results cannot be argued about. There's a reason we all thought Joe was #1 over guys like Marino and Elway and it was because he won.

I know there is a small group still clinging to the "perfect SB record" and that's awesome and no question he was the best SB performer of all time but losing earlier in the playoffs isn't a plus.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:

Time to move on from the glory years and come to terms with reality about what we are today.

Why you bring me down man.

Its good for you in the long term.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

Originally posted by BudValentino:
The only thing we can hang our hat on is that the path to our super bowls were much more difficult. The 49ers ,The Redskins, Bears, and Giants were all favored to win the super bowl at one time or another, during our 4 super bowl wins in the 80's. The Reggie White Eagles weren't chop liver either. New England's only competition has been the Colts, Ravens and Steelers with New England favored to win the super bowl every year. The 90's we had to battle great Cowboy teams and oh yeah, Green Bay Packers.
If the 49ers had played the Caliber of teams the Patriots played, we'd have 6 or 7 Super Bowls. Not to take anything away from the Patriots success, but the 49ers had to really battle all time great teams to reach their success.

Originally posted by jcs:
Think of how many different teams they've won it with. With fa and the salary cap they've won what was expected to be nearly impossible.

For a 4 year period, the loser of the NFC Championship Game went on to play/win the Super Bowl (with one exception):

1983 - Redskins beat 49ers
1984 - 49ers beat Bears
1985 - Bears beat *Giants (*divisional round not NFCC)
1986 - Giants beat Redskins
1987 - Redskins beat Vikings

So basically, those teams were just right there and after losing the NFCC (or divisional round for NYG), came back and won it all the next year.

The 1984 49ers shut out the Bears 23-0 in the NFCC, which led to the juggernaut 1985 Bears that smashed teams.

The 1985 Bears shut out the Giants and Rams by a combined score of 45-0, then smashed the Patsies 46-10 in the Bowl.

The 1986 Giants went on a tear crushing our Niners 49-3, then shutting out the Redskins 17-0 before beating the Donkies 39-20.

The 1987 Redskins one two close playoff games before whipping the Donkies 42-10.

So the Niners winning 4 out of 10 in this decade was incredible in hindsight. Basically won 4 because of Joe Montana's greatness.....otherwise would have been a 2 or 3 SB win max.

BTW, the '80s were a decade of a QB having to take on another team not another QB.

Montana crushed the likes of Marino & Elway in Super Bowl contests, but had two nail biters against Ken Anderson and Boomer Esiason's Bengals.

The rest of the NFC winners in that decade featured QBs who have not and will not be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Meanwhile the AFC has Marino, Elway, Kelly, in the HoF with Dan Fouts as well for a non SB participant.

I can't think of another HoF QB in the entire NFC outside of Montana which goes to show the tremendous battles he had to face.

Just think of Jim Kelly, whose only peer as a QB would be Troy Aikman..........Jeff Hostetler & Mark Rypien are game managers at best. Kelly was 0-4 in the big game and is in the HoF.

Meanwhile in the '00s and '10s, you have Brady winning SBs merely because he's a better QB than most of the AFC and every NFC QB he's battled.....and barely beating them.

These Jags & Vikings teams would be legit SB teams had they been around 10-15+ years at least........definitely back in '80s and '90s. Brady beats the Jags by 4 at home where he's vastly superior a QB to Bortles.........definite loss many years ago.

The years teams bring a ferocious D with competent QB play he's lost........a few Ravens and Broncos teams come to mind, along with NYG. Mostly QBs lesser than Brady with the lone exception of Peyton Manning on Denver & Indy....but only when those teams were outright better than his team.

Also consider that the 49ers could not get past the Giants in 1990 NFCC primarily because their running game with Craig dropped off enough that the Giants could contain him in nickel/dime the entire game. An in prime Rice, Taylor, Jones blow away anything Brady played with and yet it wasn't enough to do much versus NYG. You needed an RB to ball back then.....couldn't just throw it 50-60 times against a great defense and win. Steve Young is a one time champion because he barely had a great RB outside of Watters & Hearst.

It's a debate that can be spun many different ways. I've always been ok with saying "Montana best of the '80s", "Brady best of the '00s/10s".......Brady might have been very good in the '80s and Montana for sure in the modern game.

On a different but final note:

I like to compare QBs qualitatively.........beyond SB rings. After all, we acknowledge Marino as a f'n beast QB , probably GOAT who never won a chip. Maybe not better than Montana or Brady or maybe Peyton but sure as hell better than most of the 30-40+ QBs with rings.

So why is Brady and Montana all about 5 wins vs 4 wins or 2 losses vs. 0 losses....?

On pure eye test/skill:

Montana can improvise out of pocket better.
Montana superior mobility by far (3rd all time rusher in SB game behind McNair & Kap....5/59 yards against Dolphins!).
Montana better footwork/drop back.
Montana never used shotgun (neither did Young).

Give it a tie for intangible/clutch.
Give it a tie for reading defenses, calling audibles, etc. .
Give it a general tie for throwing the football.

Give Brady an edge for being a little bit taller. (LOL)

Serious question:

What does Brady do now or before that is better than Montana, skill wise?

There are people who have very serious debates saying Young was better than Montana (and it has to be respected), but then turn around and say Brady is better than Montana in the next breath.

Wish we could discuss skills more often. More intellectually satisfying!

Defenses were never as complex as they are today. Brady is the best pre snap QB of all time, Montana was great but he wasn't figuring out teams in that way. Usually his teams were dominate. Brady is doing this with guys like amendola

Are we really doing this again? I thought this thread died for a reason...because it became clear that it was no longer 1A/1B situation but Brady took the next step to being alone at the top above Joe.

Yes the game was tougher back in those days in terms of the rules. It was not tougher in terms of QBs getting killed. Joe got hurt on a play which would be legal today so why are we assuming that he can suddenly excel and stay healthy in today's NFL when guys are bigger, stronger and faster?

Tom Brady is playing some of the best football of his career at 40...how many people can say that? How many QBs have done this? He led the league in yards and was near the top in almost every important passing category this year.

You also forget that Brady and the Patriots are dealing with something the 49ers didn't have to deal with when Joe was winning - the salary cap. It makes it very difficult to keep some of your best players and it requires Brady to re-build the trust and chemistry with guys he may not be playing with often.

His ability to move in the pocket to avoid the passrush is insane. His ability to read the field, pre and post snap is off the charts. Not sure why not using the shotgun is a detriment...offenses have changed, defenses have changed. As jcs said above, they're very different and more complex these days so you can't say they're equal when one guy is having to read much more complicated schemes and fit the ball into tighter windows.

At the end of the day you have to judge each guy based on what they've done and Brady's results cannot be argued about. There's a reason we all thought Joe was #1 over guys like Marino and Elway and it was because he won.

I know there is a small group still clinging to the "perfect SB record" and that's awesome and no question he was the best SB performer of all time but losing earlier in the playoffs isn't a plus.

Lulz, if Montana had access to today's nutrition and training regiments back in his time he'd probably win a couple more SB's. Dude was athletic as hell. He could dunk a basketball with two hands. Brady looked like a f**king twig coming out of college. Not to mention Montana had to deal with all of the steroid infused monsters of the 80's.

Originally posted by ChazBoner:

🐐
TB12

Deal with it

4th quarter comebacks in the playoffs.
Montana- 5
Brady- 11

Originally posted by valrod33:
4th quarter comebacks in the playoffs.
Montana- 5
Brady- 11

That stat tells me Brady doesn't play hard until he realizes the urgency of the situation. I don't like procrastinators.

Originally posted by valrod33:
4th quarter comebacks in the playoffs.
Montana- 5
Brady- 11

To be honest, I think teams in general come back more now than they did back then. Teams just didn't relinquish leads like that. Who was coming back on the 80s Giants or Bears if they were 10 +points up in the 4th quarter? With that said, I won't even argue this anymore. Tom Brady's record is staggering and it's hard to put up a logical argument against it. People can divide this up into eras and he's easily the best of this era and pretty much the best of all time.

Joe Montana is the GOAT because 49ers.

Montana secured as 2nd best

The one guy gave a decent response but he was basing things off an uneven playing field. He listed the favorites for the playoffs for the 49ers then compared it to just the SB odds for the Pats while neglecting that NE has been underdogs vs the Rams and Seahawks. Not too mention some of those title games v Colts, Broncos.

I think it's fair to say Joe faced better competition but you could argue that he personally had to do less too as teams were much more balanced and defensively oriented. Nowadays Tom is throwing 40 a game and it's all on him.

I'm not saying Tom is better right now I'd call it a slight edge to Joe at least until he wins 6 but everyone has their own obstacles.

I feel like Belichick deserves the most credit for the Patriots dynasty, since they can plug in essentially any player and they still win.

With that said, Tom Brady is clearly the most accomplished QB of all time and therefore the greatest.

Brady surpassed Montana, and one day Brady will be passed up.

Maybe it'll be the combo of Shanahan & Garoppolo that does it

Beady is amazing. No doubt.

Montana is "Invictus". 4-0. 16 quarters and not 1 interception. That's insane. I believe Brady has even talked about that insanity.


I can't knock Brady man. The dude just gets it done. I think he is going to wipe his ass with the Eagles.