Joe Montana Legacy Secured

Originally posted by ChazBoner:

Originally posted by 9moon:

Lets get this done once and for all.. this is the way I see it.. all the QBs that I saw since I started watching football in 1981... My personal Ranking..

QB FOR BIGGEST GAME = JOE MONTANA

BEST PASSER = DAN MARINO

QB WHO CAN PLAY W/O A COACH: PEYTON MANNING

QB WHO CAN WIN WITH ANY OFFENSE: TOM BRADY

ALL TYPE OF WEATHER QB: JOHN ELWAY

what about all those playoff games he lost?

No one wins every game. You go with the odds and past evidence of clutch. Jordan didn't make every game winner. Bumgardner has lost in the playoffs. Gretzky got bounced in the playoffs 14 times.

Montana won 72% of his playoff games. That's pretty good.

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

This is so dumb. Are people still trying to grasp for straws to hang onto this one?.....

5 > 4. Winning 5 Super Bowls is better than winning 4. Period.

Getting to 8 > getting to 4. Yes getting to a Super Bowl is hard. Yes it counts getting there too. Why is the guy who can't get to 8 better than the guy who did get to 8? It makes no sense at all. It's not even logical.

Lebron has been to finals 8 times. His Airness 6

Originally posted by ChazBoner:

Originally posted by 9moon:
Lets get this done once and for all.. this is the way I see it.. all the QBs that I saw since I started watching football in 1981... My personal Ranking..

QB FOR BIGGEST GAME = JOE MONTANA

BEST PASSER = DAN MARINO

QB WHO CAN PLAY W/O A COACH: PEYTON MANNING

QB WHO CAN WIN WITH ANY OFFENSE: TOM BRADY

ALL TYPE OF WEATHER QB: JOHN ELWAY

what about all those playoff games he lost?

He lost half as many playoff games with the 49ers as Brady did with the Pats.

It's done shut it down.

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
This is so dumb. Are people still trying to grasp for straws to hang onto this one?.....

5 > 4. Winning 5 Super Bowls is better than winning 4. Period.

Getting to 8 > getting to 4. Yes getting to a Super Bowl is hard. Yes it counts getting there too. Why is the guy who can't get to 8 better than the guy who did get to 8? It makes no sense at all. It's not even logical.

Montana would have gotten to 8 had he played with us longer.

You have to wonder what Montana could have done with the current rules:

First of all, a lot of people call Montana "fragile" compared to Brady, however, that overlooks the dramatic changes in rules that now protect the QB in ways that were not in force for Montana. I recall many times when hits Joe absorbed would have resulted in 15 yard penalties in today's NFL. Joe did take good care of himself. Given current rules protection, he could have played several more years at a high level.

Second, there have been few offenses that had as many top end weapons as did Joe: Tyler, Craig and Rathman were all good receivers coming out of the backfield. Russ Francis, John Frank and Brent Jones were all three dangerous receivers as TEs. Then there was Freddie Solomon, Dwight Clark, Jerry Rice, John Taylor as WRs. Rice and Taylor were one of the top 10 combos of all time.

Just imagine, if you will, what a current DC would have to do to contain Craig and Rathman coming out of the backfield with any one of those Pro Bowl TEs down the seam and Rice and Taylor on the outside. Over a 10-12 year span with modern rules, that crew would have moved Brady to #2 for sure.

Such is the problem with declarative statements from different eras.

Originally posted by Janitor:

Where do those percentages come from?

Montana played 10 full seasons, Brady has played 16 full seasons.

4/10 = 40%
5/16 = 31%

Originally posted by teylo31:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
This is so dumb. Are people still trying to grasp for straws to hang onto this one?.....

5 > 4. Winning 5 Super Bowls is better than winning 4. Period.

Getting to 8 > getting to 4. Yes getting to a Super Bowl is hard. Yes it counts getting there too. Why is the guy who can't get to 8 better than the guy who did get to 8? It makes no sense at all. It's not even logical.

Lebron has been to finals 8 times. His Airness 6

What part of Brady WON 5 don't you understand? Yes Lebron getting to 8 is super impressive although he is criticized on the WZ a lot because he is hated here. Wilt won just 1 time. Barkley never won. Ewing never won. Getting to 8 and winning 3 is great. It's hardly bad. Plus how many of those were really his fault? Early in his career when they played the Spurs his young Cleveland team was not the best team. Not by a long shot. Playing with 2 out of the big 3 hurt in another Championship is not his fault. Getting beat by a unheard of Big 4 is not his fault. Wow he lost to the starting roster for the Olympic team. What a choke. There are easily 3 of them I can think of right of the top of my head that absolutely are NOT his fault. It's so overrated that Lebron chokes when you really think of the circumstances here. He has been in some unfortunate situations when reaching the finals sometimes. Some factors beyond his control.

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

Originally posted by teylo31:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
This is so dumb. Are people still trying to grasp for straws to hang onto this one?.....

5 > 4. Winning 5 Super Bowls is better than winning 4. Period.

Getting to 8 > getting to 4. Yes getting to a Super Bowl is hard. Yes it counts getting there too. Why is the guy who can't get to 8 better than the guy who did get to 8? It makes no sense at all. It's not even logical.

Lebron has been to finals 8 times. His Airness 6

What part of Brady WON 5 don't you understand? Yes Lebron getting to 8 is super impressive although he is criticized on the WZ a lot because he is hated here. Wilt won just 1 time. Barkley never won. Ewing never won. Getting to 8 and winning 3 is great. It's hardly bad. Plus how many of those were really his fault? Early in his career when they played the Spurs his young Cleveland team was not the best team. Not by a long shot. Playing with 2 out of the big 3 hurt in another Championship is not his fault. Getting beat by a unheard of Big 4 is not his fault. Wow he lost to the starting roster for the Olympic team. What a choke. There are easily 3 of them I can think of right of the top of my head that absolutely are NOT his fault. It's so overrated that Lebron chokes when you really think of the circumstances here. He has been in some unfortunate situations when reaching the finals sometimes. Some factors beyond his control.

Wtf? What are you trying to argue? Winning 5 is better than 4? Well doh but that's not what we're arguing here. We're stating our opinion on who the greatest QB of all time is and there's no denying it's Montana.

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

Originally posted by teylo31:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
This is so dumb. Are people still trying to grasp for straws to hang onto this one?.....

5 > 4. Winning 5 Super Bowls is better than winning 4. Period.

Getting to 8 > getting to 4. Yes getting to a Super Bowl is hard. Yes it counts getting there too. Why is the guy who can't get to 8 better than the guy who did get to 8? It makes no sense at all. It's not even logical.

Lebron has been to finals 8 times. His Airness 6

What part of Brady WON 5 don't you understand? Yes Lebron getting to 8 is super impressive although he is criticized on the WZ a lot because he is hated here. Wilt won just 1 time. Barkley never won. Ewing never won. Getting to 8 and winning 3 is great. It's hardly bad. Plus how many of those were really his fault? Early in his career when they played the Spurs his young Cleveland team was not the best team. Not by a long shot. Playing with 2 out of the big 3 hurt in another Championship is not his fault. Getting beat by a unheard of Big 4 is not his fault. Wow he lost to the starting roster for the Olympic team. What a choke. There are easily 3 of them I can think of right of the top of my head that absolutely are NOT his fault. It's so overrated that Lebron chokes when you really think of the circumstances here. He has been in some unfortunate situations when reaching the finals sometimes. Some factors beyond his control.

Wtf? What are you trying to argue? Winning 5 is better than 4? Well doh but that's not what we're arguing here. We're stating our opinion on who the greatest QB of all time is and there's no denying it's Montana.

That's correct!

Originally posted by teylo31:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

This is so dumb. Are people still trying to grasp for straws to hang onto this one?.....

5 > 4. Winning 5 Super Bowls is better than winning 4. Period.

Getting to 8 > getting to 4. Yes getting to a Super Bowl is hard. Yes it counts getting there too. Why is the guy who can't get to 8 better than the guy who did get to 8? It makes no sense at all. It's not even logical.

Lebron has been to finals 8 times. His Airness 6

And guess who won all his........

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by midrdan:
It is hard to compare eras and Montana has played fewer years than Brady has played [Montana played 15 years, but '80 he didn't start, '82 was a strike, '86 he broke his back, '91-'92 he was injured and Young took over; Brady has played 18 years but didn't start in '00 and in '08 was injured]. So call it 10 seasons for Montana versus 16 for Brady.

In those 10 seasons Montana won the SB 4 times - 40%

In Brady's 16 seasons he won 5 times - 31%.

Both impressive.

But the caliber of opponents during their years is significant. Consider, from 1981 to 1990 the Redskins Giants and Bears won a combined 5 SBs [Washington won another in 1991]. Their combined winning percentage that decade was 65%. Those three teams each averaged 10.5 wins per year for the decade. They were good - 12 hall of famers from those teams.

The 49ers won 4 SBs in that era. They beat all three of those teams in the playoffs. They lost to Washington and Giants as well. The point is the 1980s was a decade where 4 amazing teams won 9 of 10 SBs and Joe's team won the most.

The NFC West was not horrible during this decade either. The combined winning percentage of the Rams, Saints and Falcons was 47%. Not amazing. But those teams played 60 games against the 49ers that decade. Their winning percentage against the 49ers was 27%; against the rest of the league the rest of the division was over .500. For the decade.

In comparison, since 2001 the Bills, Jets and Dolphins have won a combined 43% of their games. Taking out their abysmal win percentage against the Pats during this time, the division is still well below .500 against the rest of the league for the past 17 years. They have been consistently bad.

Likewise the three most successful teams during the past 17 years in the AFC aside from the Pats are the Colts, Broncos and Steelers. Their win percentage during Brady's run is 61%

In both cases, the main competitors and the divisions were comparatively more competitive in Montana's era than in Brady's.

A lot has been said about it being harder to win in the salary cap era. That the 49ers just put together a stacked team in 1981 and rolled for a decade. Not so. Of the players that won in 1981, only 5 were with the team in 1989. Aside from Fred Dean, who they traded for, I can't recall a single "big name" the Team signed in the 1980s. It was built through the draft and basically the entire team other than Lott and Montana was turned over from 1981 to 1988-1989.

Conversely, the Patriots have signed or traded for: Moss, Welker, Amendola, Rodney Harrison, Seau, Revis, Vrabel, Dion Lewis, Ninkovich, Branch, Boddin, Chung, Cooks... the era allows teams to plug holes. People want to play for a winner. The Pats draw talent.

The point is neither QB just rolled with the same team. Montana won SBs with different teams - different backfields, O-lines, WRs, and defenses. Same as Brady.

No one should question Brady's greatness. He's awesome. But to suggest that the 49ers benefitted from weak competition or that it is harder to win in this era is preposterous. The best teams since the cap - Pats, Broncos, Steelers and Colts have been the best teams for 17 years. The cap hasn't changed that.

Awesome post.

*I* Question Brady's greatness. I wonder how his cheating record will go over when he's eligible for the Hall of Fame. I hear Pete Rose is still outside looking. in.

Originally posted by 9moon:

Lets get this done once and for all.. this is the way I see it.. all the QBs that I saw since I started watching football in 1981... My personal Ranking..

QB FOR BIGGEST GAME = JOE MONTANA

BEST PASSER = DAN MARINO

QB WHO CAN PLAY W/O A COACH: PEYTON MANNING

QB WHO CAN WIN WITH ANY OFFENSE: TOM BRADY

ALL TYPE OF WEATHER QB: JOHN ELWAY

Just one small correction: Elway with Terrell Davis. Without him Elway's record looks rather different.

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by 9moon:
Lets get this done once and for all.. this is the way I see it.. all the QBs that I saw since I started watching football in 1981... My personal Ranking..

QB FOR BIGGEST GAME = JOE MONTANA

BEST PASSER = DAN MARINO

QB WHO CAN PLAY W/O A COACH: PEYTON MANNING

QB WHO CAN WIN WITH ANY OFFENSE: TOM BRADY

ALL TYPE OF WEATHER QB: JOHN ELWAY

Just one small correction: Elway with Terrell Davis. Without him Elway's record looks rather different.

Good point!!! ...and where would Joe be without Lenvil Elliot!!!

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Giedi:

*I* Question Brady's greatness. I wonder how his cheating record will go over when he's eligible for the Hall of Fame. I hear Pete Rose is still outside looking. in.

LOL! I agree but I'm just here to argue that one can't compare eras!

And that ought to be the last word on the subject. Wont be but it ought to.

Originally posted by Giedi:

*I* Question Brady's greatness. I wonder how his cheating record will go over when he's eligible for the Hall of Fame. I hear Pete Rose is still outside looking. in.

Brady is both a great QB and a cheater, who was caught and suspended. The Patriots have been caught cheating multiple times. And punished for it. It's a taint ... and one of the reasons why I think Brady can never be the GOAT.