Joe Montana Legacy Secured

Originally posted by TheGore49er:
Guys, a 6'5 230 LB QB is less durable than 6'2 205 LB QB...And those 280 LB DTs hit so much harder than today's faster and stronger and bigger DTs. Poor little Brady would've died on the field.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

You are not a "Joe Fan"?

I'm a Montana fan. Not so much a fan of Joe's fans. Their hatred of Steve always grew tiresome.

I love them both!

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

Against the mediocre Giants who ranked 14th out of 32 in scoring and 17th out of 32 in points allowed.

Where are you getting your numbers from first of all?

Second styles make fights and Giants did what few teams could do that year...get to Brady and they did it often.

Brady was only sacked 21 times during the regular season in 16 games. Giants took him down 5 times in that one game and hit him a lot more than that.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2007.htm

QBs who put up more points on the 2007 Giants than Tom Brady did in the SB:
Tony Romo Twice
Aaron Rodgers Twice
Chad Pennington
Tavaris Jackson
Jason Campbell
Trent Edwards

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Lets see Brady get hit as many times as Joe did in his era where there wasn't the, "you tap the QB on the head with an index finger and there's a penalty" rules in place and continue to be able to play as long as he has and be proficient. Then we might be able to talk about this fairly.

The hard part is this debate of Joe vs Tom can never be settled. What Tom has done is impressive - as much as it pains me to say that because I can't stand him nor the Patriots. The only time I ever wanted them to win was against the Seahawks in a, "who do I hate least" game.

But, they played in different eras. Joe's time, the game was much, much different. Defenders mauled QB's. Hits to the head? Sure, that's fine. Low at the knees? Yep, go ahead.

Joe's SB window as a starting QB wasn't that long. 11 years. In 10 years he won 4 SB's and injury may have kept him from a 5th. We don't know how that 1990 NFCCG would have turned out if Joe wasn't on the sideline with cracked ribs, a broken hand, bruised sternum and bruised stomach. Steve made a big throw on the final drive and Roger coughed it up, but one has to wonder if Bill wouldn't have called a passing play there in the 4 minute drill if Joe was in the game.

Let's also not forget why Montana was pulled in the 1986 NFCCG where Young had his epic run that's shown on the highlights. Walsh pulled Montana after 2 picks because Joe had been dealing with elbow problems from all the wear and tear of the NFL at that time. He had surgery in the off-season and came back and won the SB the next year.

In 1991 people also forget that he tore a tendon in his throwing arm in training camp - it's why Steve started in 91. Steve won the passing title that year, but you still have to wonder if it wouldn't have gone all the way with Joe under center.

Joe also played in a time with much less medical knowledge and sports injury knowledge than we have today. I highly doubt Tom is going to have the long term health affects that Joe has had to deal with since playing even though he will have played a lot more games(Joe is headed for a 3rd neck fusion on top of bad arthritis in his legs and arms).

There's no denying that Tom is great. There's no denying Montana was great. But, if you look at the adversity and brutality of the game in Joe's era, to do what he did is incredible.

If healthy, I would pick a Joe Montana over Brady 10 times out of 10.

Here's the thing. I agree playing offense in that era was a lot tougher and QBs took much more punishment.

However I don't think we can simply say that if they switch spots that Brady's career is ended quickly and Joe plays great into his 40s.

Tom Brady goes through a ridiculous regiment and a crazy extreme diet to keep his body in shape and he actually looks better moving around these days than he did in his 20s as crazy as that is.

Not to mention there are plenty of QBs getting injured today as well. Guys may not be able to hit the same way they did back in Joe's playing days but QBs still get hit and they get hit hard. The whole thing about comparing era's is hypotheticals. I think you have to compare guys among their peers.

With Joe you had Marino and Elway. Elway had what was it 3 trips to the SB before the salary cap era? 5 total when he was done?

With Brady what other QB comes close to his success since he took over as the Pats starter? Manning? 4 trips with 2 wins to Brady's 8 trips with 5 wins. We all know his SB numbers(pretty sure he has more picks than TDs)

Yes you can argue that the teams Brady had were better but we've watched Joe, we know there is such a thing as having "IT" and Brady, like Joe, has IT.

You don't come back down 28-3 in the 3rd unless you can make magic happen.

You don't go to 8 Superbowls with very different teams if you don't have IT.

I know people like to point out that Belichick is a mastermind who can win with everyone but I don't agree. The biggest thing everyone points to is Matt Cassel in 2008 but he took over a stacked team and his performance was a huge decline in play from Brady the year prior...including the Pats missing the playoffs for the first time since Brady's 2nd year in the league.

I mean forget just making the playoffs with Brady they've made it to the AFC Championship or further 12 times out of Brady's 16 years where he started most of the games.

Besides not like Joe didn't have good coaching either...coaching which was perfect for his play style too.

I don't have an issue with you or someone else taking Joe. I don't agree but I respect the opinion and can understand it but I just don't like the idea that Brady in the 80s is some kind of broken b***h who can't complete a pass when he's playing against more complex defenses, faster, stronger and bigger players.

But the point isn't that guys don't get hurt, it's that there were injuries that were never reported, hits that are illegal today, better safety equipment and better knowledge. Brady's diet and regimen is the result of extensive research that wasn't available to Joe. I'm not saying Brady would fall apart and that Joe would last forever, the point is, we don't know and that has to be factored in.

Brady's knee got taken out and the league changed the rules. Joe got thrown around like a ragdoll sometimes and nothing happened.
Remember ray Lewis, "he's a man too! He's a man too!" about Brady and them not being able to touch him.



These are just the QB's that the Giants hurt during the 80's.

My point is, we can't say for certain one is better than the other because they played in two different times. Could Montana have played in a spread, throw it 60% of the time offense? Maybe not. Could Brady take the physical pounding Joe did and still play for 17 years at a high level? Maybe not.

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

Originally posted by TheGore49er:
Guys, a 6'5 230 LB QB is less durable than 6'2 205 LB QB...And those 280 LB DTs hit so much harder than today's faster and stronger and bigger DTs. Poor little Brady would've died on the field.

So, let me get this straight. Leonard Marshall who was a 3 tech/DE like S. Thomas or Michael Bennett is the guy who knocked Joe Montana out of the 1990 NFCCG and he had a playing weight of 290 whereas Thomas and Bennett are both sub 280......

But you're right.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

Originally posted by TheGore49er:
Guys, a 6'5 230 LB QB is less durable than 6'2 205 LB QB...And those 280 LB DTs hit so much harder than today's faster and stronger and bigger DTs. Poor little Brady would've died on the field.

So, let me get this straight. Leonard Marshall who was a 3 tech/DE like S. Thomas or Michael Bennett is the guy who knocked Joe Montana out of the 1990 NFCCG and he had a playing weight of 290 whereas Thomas and Bennett are both sub 280......

But you're right.

lol i can't believe somebody tried to argue this

sure, there was some exceptions back then, just like now you have a couple 6'8 320 LB guys playing defense, that doesn't mean everybody is that size, nor did it mean that everybody in the 80s was Marshall's size.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-player-size-over-time-2014-7

it's a difference of 20+ lbs and some inches. not to mention how much faster most players are today.

Originally posted by TheWooLick:
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2007.htm

QBs who put up more points on the 2007 Giants than Tom Brady did in the SB:
Tony Romo Twice
Aaron Rodgers Twice
Chad Pennington
Tavaris Jackson
Jason Campbell
Trent Edwards

Did you click on the link? Because i'm still not seeing what you typed out.

And last I checked Tom Brady put up 38 points on them week 17 when they played the first time. Obviously the Giants adjusted and the Pats didn't. And it's not like Brady had an awful game against them...just didn't get the points on the board they needed.

Not to mention some teams just play better when the playoffs start. Giants D averaged 16.25 points per game in the 4 playoff games. That averages out to 260 points per year. Pats D was #4 in the regular season with 274 points allowed.

And honestly anyone watching that Pats D that year knew the stats didn't reflect how "good" they were.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by TheWooLick:
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2007.htm

QBs who put up more points on the 2007 Giants than Tom Brady did in the SB:
Tony Romo Twice
Aaron Rodgers Twice
Chad Pennington
Tavaris Jackson
Jason Campbell
Trent Edwards

Did you click on the link? Because i'm still not seeing what you typed out.

And last I checked Tom Brady put up 38 points on them week 17 when they played the first time. Obviously the Giants adjusted and the Pats didn't. And it's not like Brady had an awful game against them...just didn't get the points on the board they needed.

Not to mention some teams just play better when the playoffs start. Giants D averaged 16.25 points per game in the 4 playoff games. That averages out to 260 points per year. Pats D was #4 in the regular season with 274 points allowed.

And honestly anyone watching that Pats D that year knew the stats didn't reflect how "good" they were.

It's like saying that our defense was good last year lol. Brady and that offense made that defense look somewhat decent, I bet that Pats were at least top 3 in TOP. When you have a QB who can move the chains and dominate the TOP, your defense will look good. Just like our defense looked "good" after JG took over as QB. But nobody in their right mind would call our defense good.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

Guys, a 6'5 230 LB QB is less durable than 6'2 205 LB QB...And those 280 LB DTs hit so much harder than today's faster and stronger and bigger DTs. Poor little Brady would've died on the field.

So, let me get this straight. Leonard Marshall who was a 3 tech/DE like S. Thomas or Michael Bennett is the guy who knocked Joe Montana out of the 1990 NFCCG and he had a playing weight of 290 whereas Thomas and Bennett are both sub 280......

But you're right.

Brady would have been Joe Theismanned multiple times with those long ass skinny legs

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2007.htm

QBs who put up more points on the 2007 Giants than Tom Brady did in the SB:
Tony Romo Twice
Aaron Rodgers Twice
Chad Pennington
Tavaris Jackson
Jason Campbell
Trent Edwards

Did you click on the link? Because i'm still not seeing what you typed out.

And last I checked Tom Brady put up 38 points on them week 17 when they played the first time. Obviously the Giants adjusted and the Pats didn't. And it's not like Brady had an awful game against them...just didn't get the points on the board they needed.

Not to mention some teams just play better when the playoffs start. Giants D averaged 16.25 points per game in the 4 playoff games. That averages out to 260 points per year. Pats D was #4 in the regular season with 274 points allowed.

And honestly anyone watching that Pats D that year knew the stats didn't reflect how "good" they were.

What are you nor seeing that I typed?
Giants rankings:
Points For: 373 (23.3/g) 14th of 32
Points Against: 351 (21.9/g) 17th of 32

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Let's also not forget why Montana was pulled in the 1986 NFCCG where Young had his epic run that's shown on the highlights. Walsh pulled Montana after 2 picks because Joe had been dealing with elbow problems from all the wear and tear of the NFL at that time. He had surgery in the off-season and came back and won the SB the next year.

Not sure if you mean the 1986 season, or '85 season and the game played in calendar year 1986, but either way they weren't in the CG because that was during their 3-yr run of not winning a playoff game: 1985 and '86 to NYG, and then 1987 (strike year) when they lost to Vikings in game where Montana was pulled. And that game didn't have the famous Young run, that came during the regular season the following year in 1988 vs Vikings. They then lost 2 in a row after that to fall to 6-5, but then they won 4/5 and of course rest is sweet history.

Spygate, Deflategate, the "Brady rule" and the forward pass that wasn't. Today's NFL rules are structured around creating aerial theatrics, pass pass pass.

In Joe Montana's day quarterbacks and receivers didn't get coddled.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper:
Spygate, Deflategate, the "Brady rule" and the forward pass that wasn't. Today's NFL rules are structured around creating aerial theatrics, pass pass pass.

In Joe Montana's day quarterbacks and receivers didn't get coddled.

This needs to be said:

Brady only broke a majority of Montana's postseason records just a few short years ago (i.e. TDs, wins, etc)...and was 3-1 in SBs vs 4-0 during his first 10 seasons starting.

It took him longer to break records even with the benefit of rules protecting QBs and favoring WRs.

I'd rather hear more about Marino than Brady quite honestly when it comes to stats.

Troy Aikman during a 49ers game this year with that idiot Buck (who still has Kenny Lofton nightmares) said Joe is the best he has ever seen at the QB position. The fact that Brady has been to 8 SBs (in a much less team talented era) and it's still a debate says something. Let me put it this way if I had one game that I had to win where my life depended on it and I could pick one QB it would be Joe in a heartbeat. Now I didn't see Staubach, Unitas, Namath, Bradshaw, Tarkenton, etc. play so I can't say Joe is the best of all time. However he is the best I have ever seen. Am I biased? Hell yes. Joe is my childhood QB and I remember so many great times sitting with family watching the 49ers play on Sundays and Mondays with Joe making it look so different than other players. He just made it look so easy and beautiful. I guess because of the experiences during that time that I shared with family and friends all ties into it.

I will admit I hated Steve until probably 95 or 96. It wasn't because of Steve I just thought Joe was still better and could still play when he was forced out. Was he? At that point if I'm being honest probably not just because of durability and age but he did beat Steve with little talent on offense (Harvey "Long Neck" Williams, old Marcus Allen, JJ Burden, Keith Cash, etc.) that year. A broken down Joe also beat Elway on Monday night, Marino and the vaunted Steelers and Oilers D during the playoffs in the House of Pain. Again with crap talent on O. I feel like I have to keep mentioning that because that's all Brady supporters talk about is he hasn't had much talent around him and Joe played with a bunch HOFs. That's just not true.

When I think of Joe I will always think of 4 games. Dallas 81, Miami 84, Cinncy 88 and that Philly game in 89. That Philly game was sick. Joe was just getting tattooed into the astroturf and put on a clinic in the 2nd half while continuing to get hit. You just don't see QBs take that kind of pounding and still have that kind of performance. Tough. Came back from major back surgery in 6 weeks during the 86 season. SMH. Who's the best? Unless we can get all these guys in time machines and make everything the same across the board we won't ever know. I can only give my opinion on who the best I have ever seen play is and that's Joe hands down. Another thing I am sure of is how lucky we are as 49er fans to have gotten to see Joe then Steve and now finally maybe Jimmy. I'm so thankful I grew up in a 49er fan family.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper:

Spygate, Deflategate, the "Brady rule" and the forward pass that wasn't. Today's NFL rules are structured around creating aerial theatrics, pass pass pass.

In Joe Montana's day quarterbacks and receivers didn't get coddled.

Montana was the perfect fit for an offensive genius in Bill Walsh. Can we stop pretending he had is so rough? Yes the rules today are easier to score points and put up yards but other things have changed as well...more complicated schemes, coaches who have found ways to defend certain offenses. Faster, stronger and bigger players.

The windows are much smaller for QBs to get passes through. We're just playing hypotheticals here. When you compare the QBs within their own eras Brady is clear cut above the others. And while Joe going 4-0 is awesome and brilliant when you have Terry Bradshaw with a 4-0 record well it takes some shine off that. Can you find another QB who has been to 8 SBs and won 5?

In this era the next closest are a bunch of QBs tied for 2 wins in the salary cap era.

Also anyone using deflate gate and spy gate or tuck rule in their discussions are grasping at straws big time.