Joe Montana Legacy Secured

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper:

Spygate, Deflategate, the "Brady rule" and the forward pass that wasn't. Today's NFL rules are structured around creating aerial theatrics, pass pass pass.

In Joe Montana's day quarterbacks and receivers didn't get coddled.

Montana was the perfect fit for an offensive genius in Bill Walsh. Can we stop pretending he had is so rough? Yes the rules today are easier to score points and put up yards but other things have changed as well...more complicated schemes, coaches who have found ways to defend certain offenses. Faster, stronger and bigger players.

The windows are much smaller for QBs to get passes through. We're just playing hypotheticals here. When you compare the QBs within their own eras Brady is clear cut above the others. And while Joe going 4-0 is awesome and brilliant when you have Terry Bradshaw with a 4-0 record well it takes some shine off that. Can you find another QB who has been to 8 SBs and won 5?

In this era the next closest are a bunch of QBs tied for 2 wins in the salary cap era.

Also anyone using deflate gate and spy gate or tuck rule in their discussions are grasping at straws big time.

So are you saying that Joe was as coddled as Brady? Because by saying we are "pretending" that he had it so rough is demeaning to Montana, as well as completely inaccurate. Look at some of the games he played, how he got physically assaulted by, for example, the Giants. And then name me one game where Brady had that kind of assault. Trying to pretend that the other rule changes somehow balance the way rules now protect quarterbacks is simply bogus. Brady is still playing because he did not have to put up with the damage that Montana got. Therefore he was able to play longer. Therefore because he is a very fine qb in a very good system, he has put up great numbers. But he would have been knocked out of the game, in the same way that Montana and Young and a host of other good QB's were, had he played when Montana did. But if Montana played now, his career would have certainly lasted way longer and who knows what numbers he would have run up?

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper:
Spygate, Deflategate, the "Brady rule" and the forward pass that wasn't. Today's NFL rules are structured around creating aerial theatrics, pass pass pass.

In Joe Montana's day quarterbacks and receivers didn't get coddled.

Montana was the perfect fit for an offensive genius in Bill Walsh. Can we stop pretending he had is so rough? Yes the rules today are easier to score points and put up yards but other things have changed as well...more complicated schemes, coaches who have found ways to defend certain offenses. Faster, stronger and bigger players.

The windows are much smaller for QBs to get passes through. We're just playing hypotheticals here. When you compare the QBs within their own eras Brady is clear cut above the others. And while Joe going 4-0 is awesome and brilliant when you have Terry Bradshaw with a 4-0 record well it takes some shine off that. Can you find another QB who has been to 8 SBs and won 5?

In this era the next closest are a bunch of QBs tied for 2 wins in the salary cap era.

Also anyone using deflate gate and spy gate or tuck rule in their discussions are grasping at straws big time.

Bill Bellicheat and Tom Brady are lumped in with Tonya Harding and Lance Armstrong. I don't think these are *straws* at all.

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/tom-brady-alex-rodriguez-barry-bonds-bill-belichick-biggest-cheaters-in-sports-050615

Originally posted by Giedi:

Bill Bellicheat and Tom Brady are lumped in with Tonya Harding and Lance Armstrong. I don't think these are *straws* at all.

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/tom-brady-alex-rodriguez-barry-bonds-bill-belichick-biggest-cheaters-in-sports-050615

When you break down what they got punished for, compare it to other teams doing it, how much it actually impacts the game...yeah total straws.

Deflate gate was beyond ridiculous.

#NutChugginScuses

#JoeNeverChoked

#NuffSaid

Originally posted by genus49:
Montana was the perfect fit for an offensive genius in Bill Walsh. Can we stop pretending he had is so rough? Yes the rules today are easier to score points and put up yards but other things have changed as well...more complicated schemes, coaches who have found ways to defend certain offenses. Faster, stronger and bigger players.

The windows are much smaller for QBs to get passes through. We're just playing hypotheticals here. When you compare the QBs within their own eras Brady is clear cut above the others. And while Joe going 4-0 is awesome and brilliant when you have Terry Bradshaw with a 4-0 record well it takes some shine off that. Can you find another QB who has been to 8 SBs and won 5?

In this era the next closest are a bunch of QBs tied for 2 wins in the salary cap era.

Also anyone using deflate gate and spy gate or tuck rule in their discussions are grasping at straws big time.

You sound like the one who is gasping for straws, homie. Cheating is a major factor in any sport; in any debate. It's the reason why Bonds isn't in the HOF. But let's ignore the elephant in the room to make your argument stand out!

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Bill Bellicheat and Tom Brady are lumped in with Tonya Harding and Lance Armstrong. I don't think these are *straws* at all.

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/tom-brady-alex-rodriguez-barry-bonds-bill-belichick-biggest-cheaters-in-sports-050615

When you break down what they got punished for, compare it to other teams doing it, how much it actually impacts the game...yeah total straws.

Deflate gate was beyond ridiculous.

Stealing a teams hand signals is pretty lame. Thats not getting a better grip on the ball. Also joe won a super bowl with lenvill eliot earl cooper ricky patton at running back. Charlie young at te. Pretty star studded dont you think?

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sfo/1981_roster.htm

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Stealing a teams hand signals is pretty lame. Thats not getting a better grip on the ball. Also joe won a super bowl with lenvill eliot earl cooper ricky patton at running back. Charlie young at te. Pretty star studded dont you think?

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sfo/1981_roster.htm

Hey I worked with a guy who played on that team I have all the respect in the world for them getting that one...and so does Tom Brady since he was in the stands for the catch.

But you didn't mention Dwight or Freddie who were pretty good players. The Brady 2001 offensive roster was just as offensive if not more so.

Troy Brown, David Patten, Antowain Smith, JR Redmond, Marc Edwards, Jermaine Wiggins....not exactly exciting talent.

And stealing another team's signals was something other teams did. Pats were the only ones to get caught because Eric Mangini wanted to fuk them after taking the Jets job. But what they were doing wasn't helping them in the game they were in. They were using it to try to figure out the signals for later games. Honestly if teams aren't changing their calls around then they deserve to get killed.

And it was clearly helping them so much that after they were caught for taping DEFENSIVE signals their offense became dominant.

As 49er fans we really shouldn't be throwing stones. There is plenty of stuff out there about our OLinmen putting silicone on the jerseys, Rice with the stickum admission, headsets going out, salary cap violations, etc...

If you want to compare the two then do it based on what they've done in their respective eras. Taking Brady down a notch because of "cheating" is lame and is a cheap way to not give credit to the guy who grew up a 49ers fan. Let's not forget we had a chance to draft this kid and decided to draft Gio Carmazzi

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Lets see Brady get hit as many times as Joe did in his era where there wasn't the, "you tap the QB on the head with an index finger and there's a penalty" rules in place and continue to be able to play as long as he has and be proficient. Then we might be able to talk about this fairly.

The hard part is this debate of Joe vs Tom can never be settled. What Tom has done is impressive - as much as it pains me to say that because I can't stand him nor the Patriots. The only time I ever wanted them to win was against the Seahawks in a, "who do I hate least" game.

But, they played in different eras. Joe's time, the game was much, much different. Defenders mauled QB's. Hits to the head? Sure, that's fine. Low at the knees? Yep, go ahead.

Joe's SB window as a starting QB wasn't that long. 11 years. In 10 years he won 4 SB's and injury may have kept him from a 5th. We don't know how that 1990 NFCCG would have turned out if Joe wasn't on the sideline with cracked ribs, a broken hand, bruised sternum and bruised stomach. Steve made a big throw on the final drive and Roger coughed it up, but one has to wonder if Bill wouldn't have called a passing play there in the 4 minute drill if Joe was in the game.

Let's also not forget why Montana was pulled in the 1986 NFCCG where Young had his epic run that's shown on the highlights. Walsh pulled Montana after 2 picks because Joe had been dealing with elbow problems from all the wear and tear of the NFL at that time. He had surgery in the off-season and came back and won the SB the next year.

In 1991 people also forget that he tore a tendon in his throwing arm in training camp - it's why Steve started in 91. Steve won the passing title that year, but you still have to wonder if it wouldn't have gone all the way with Joe under center.

Joe also played in a time with much less medical knowledge and sports injury knowledge than we have today. I highly doubt Tom is going to have the long term health affects that Joe has had to deal with since playing even though he will have played a lot more games(Joe is headed for a 3rd neck fusion on top of bad arthritis in his legs and arms).

There's no denying that Tom is great. There's no denying Montana was great. But, if you look at the adversity and brutality of the game in Joe's era, to do what he did is incredible.

If healthy, I would pick a Joe Montana over Brady 10 times out of 10.

Here's the thing. I agree playing offense in that era was a lot tougher and QBs took much more punishment.

However I don't think we can simply say that if they switch spots that Brady's career is ended quickly and Joe plays great into his 40s.

Tom Brady goes through a ridiculous regiment and a crazy extreme diet to keep his body in shape and he actually looks better moving around these days than he did in his 20s as crazy as that is.

Not to mention there are plenty of QBs getting injured today as well. Guys may not be able to hit the same way they did back in Joe's playing days but QBs still get hit and they get hit hard. The whole thing about comparing era's is hypotheticals. I think you have to compare guys among their peers.

With Joe you had Marino and Elway. Elway had what was it 3 trips to the SB before the salary cap era? 5 total when he was done?

With Brady what other QB comes close to his success since he took over as the Pats starter? Manning? 4 trips with 2 wins to Brady's 8 trips with 5 wins. We all know his SB numbers(pretty sure he has more picks than TDs)

Yes you can argue that the teams Brady had were better but we've watched Joe, we know there is such a thing as having "IT" and Brady, like Joe, has IT.

You don't come back down 28-3 in the 3rd unless you can make magic happen.

You don't go to 8 Superbowls with very different teams if you don't have IT.

I know people like to point out that Belichick is a mastermind who can win with everyone but I don't agree. The biggest thing everyone points to is Matt Cassel in 2008 but he took over a stacked team and his performance was a huge decline in play from Brady the year prior...including the Pats missing the playoffs for the first time since Brady's 2nd year in the league.

I mean forget just making the playoffs with Brady they've made it to the AFC Championship or further 12 times out of Brady's 16 years where he started most of the games.

Besides not like Joe didn't have good coaching either...coaching which was perfect for his play style too.

I don't have an issue with you or someone else taking Joe. I don't agree but I respect the opinion and can understand it but I just don't like the idea that Brady in the 80s is some kind of broken b***h who can't complete a pass when he's playing against more complex defenses, faster, stronger and bigger players.

The Falcons choked away that game as much as the Patriots won it. Use another argument. If he could work magic in the Super Bowl he wouldn't have to had to rely on a kicker to win the big game for him and not be able to outscore Eli Manning or Nick Foles.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper:
Spygate, Deflategate, the "Brady rule" and the forward pass that wasn't. Today's NFL rules are structured around creating aerial theatrics, pass pass pass.

In Joe Montana's day quarterbacks and receivers didn't get coddled.

Montana was the perfect fit for an offensive genius in Bill Walsh. Can we stop pretending he had is so rough? Yes the rules today are easier to score points and put up yards but other things have changed as well...more complicated schemes, coaches who have found ways to defend certain offenses. Faster, stronger and bigger players.

The windows are much smaller for QBs to get passes through. We're just playing hypotheticals here. When you compare the QBs within their own eras Brady is clear cut above the others. And while Joe going 4-0 is awesome and brilliant when you have Terry Bradshaw with a 4-0 record well it takes some shine off that. Can you find another QB who has been to 8 SBs and won 5?

In this era the next closest are a bunch of QBs tied for 2 wins in the salary cap era.

Also anyone using deflate gate and spy gate or tuck rule in their discussions are grasping at straws big time.

Going to multiple Championship games and not losing isn't easy. 4-0>5-3.

Originally posted by Arsenal2004:
Going to multiple Championship games and not losing isn't easy. 4-0>5-3.

Remind me what happened those other times Joe didn't win the SB?

Here are some facts for you

4-0 has been done twice
5-3 has been done once

Is Terry Bradshaw on the same level as Joe Montana now?

And it's easier when your team is dominant all around.

Originally posted by Arsenal2004:
The Falcons choked away that game as much as the Patriots won it. Use another argument. If he could work magic in the Super Bowl he wouldn't have to had to rely on a kicker to win the big game for him and not be able to outscore Eli Manning or Nick Foles.

And to use another argument is the Pats D choked away the game in 2007 and Wes Welker choked away a pass which would've sealed the win for the Pats in 2011.

The whole "needed a kicker" argument went out the window after the Atlanta game last year. And are we going to pretend Joe had all of his wins without a kicker?

Originally posted by genus49:
And to use another argument is the Pats D choked away the game in 2007 and Wes Welker choked away a pass which would've sealed the win for the Pats in 2011.

The whole "needed a kicker" argument went out the window after the Atlanta game last year. And are we going to pretend Joe had all of his wins without a kicker?

I am

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper:

Spygate, Deflategate, the "Brady rule" and the forward pass that wasn't. Today's NFL rules are structured around creating aerial theatrics, pass pass pass.

In Joe Montana's day quarterbacks and receivers didn't get coddled.

Montana was the perfect fit for an offensive genius in Bill Walsh. Can we stop pretending he had is so rough? Yes the rules today are easier to score points and put up yards but other things have changed as well...more complicated schemes, coaches who have found ways to defend certain offenses. Faster, stronger and bigger players.

The windows are much smaller for QBs to get passes through. We're just playing hypotheticals here. When you compare the QBs within their own eras Brady is clear cut above the others. And while Joe going 4-0 is awesome and brilliant when you have Terry Bradshaw with a 4-0 record well it takes some shine off that. Can you find another QB who has been to 8 SBs and won 5?

In this era the next closest are a bunch of QBs tied for 2 wins in the salary cap era.

Also anyone using deflate gate and spy gate or tuck rule in their discussions are grasping at straws big time.

Smaller windows?

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Bill Bellicheat and Tom Brady are lumped in with Tonya Harding and Lance Armstrong. I don't think these are *straws* at all.

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/tom-brady-alex-rodriguez-barry-bonds-bill-belichick-biggest-cheaters-in-sports-050615

When you break down what they got punished for, compare it to other teams doing it, how much it actually impacts the game...yeah total straws.

Deflate gate was beyond ridiculous.

Not straws, the fact that the public (not just me) lumps Tom with Tonya and Lance says it all. It's the court of public opinion, not the court of law.

Originally posted by Giedi:
Not straws, the fact that the public (not just me) lumps Tom with Tonya and Lance says it all. It's the court of public opinion, not the court of law.

Just because the general public is stupid doesn't mean you have to join them.

The fact that ESPN had "Tom Brady destroys phone" as part of the major headline for deflategate should tell you all you need to know about the court of public opinion.

Not to mention their story was flat out false and they didn't remove it or admit it was erroneous until months later at like 2am.

Public opinion is all based on hearsay and big highlighted headlines. "Patriots fined for blah" "Tom Brady destroys phone" "Tom Brady suspended"

All those things are for people who don't understand or watch the game.

The fact that 49er fans listen to this garbage is mind blowing to me when we've seen first hand how ridiculous Roger Goodell is with his punishments which don't fit the crime and how he picks and chooses who gets the hammer. Remember our "tampering" with Lance Briggs? Remember the fine and draft picks we lost as a result when we didn't even sign the guy?

Want to look up what happened to the Jets when they were punished for tampering with Darrelle Revis...someone they actually signed?

Patriots didn't do anything other teams haven't done and they got BETTER after each "gate" so someone explain that to me how you can say with a straight face they were winning only because of the cheating?

I know this is a 49ers board and I love my team but I'm also a football fan and I've learned to respect the players no matter which team they play for. I used to hate Kurt Warner with a passion because I associated him with our collapse and the Rams coming out party back then but as I grew up I realized he's a really good guy and a great QB. I can't stand Richard Sherman for the most part but I respect the hell out of his game and would've loved to have him here before his injury last year.

It's not like saying Tom Brady is the greatest changes what Joe did for our franchise. We don't have to give those memories or Lombardis back. And if someone has to be the GOAT I'd rather it be at least a 49ers fan if not a 49er.