Joe Montana Legacy Secured

Originally posted by smithordie:
I'm fairly certain you're leaving out critical facts,,,

When the information was first requested, Brady refused to turn the information over. Brady did not turn the information over until his appeal. And the information he did turn over was missing everything from the second half of that season. It only contained information from before November '14 and after March '15.

The cell phone Brady destroyed was the cell phone used between November '14 and March '15. Kind of odd Brady didn't destroy the cell phone he used before November or after March, but did destroy the cell phone he used during the last half of that season leading up to the SB.

That's not true. He provided all the information through his lawyer but he did not provide the actual phone, which wasn't actually requested.

The salary cap has made the NFL a league of mediocrity and I don't think that makes Brady's accomplishments more impressive.

Originally posted by socalniner:
Grant Cohen is spot on in his article about Montana vs Brady. By his argument for Montana, its not even close!

I agree. Cohn made a lot of good points and brought up stats that most people don't mention.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by smithordie:
I'm fairly certain you're leaving out critical facts,,,

When the information was first requested, Brady refused to turn the information over. Brady did not turn the information over until his appeal. And the information he did turn over was missing everything from the second half of that season. It only contained information from before November '14 and after March '15.

The cell phone Brady destroyed was the cell phone used between November '14 and March '15. Kind of odd Brady didn't destroy the cell phone he used before November or after March, but did destroy the cell phone he used during the last half of that season leading up to the SB.

That's not true. He provided all the information through his lawyer but he did not provide the actual phone, which wasn't actually requested.

The information was not provided to the NFL when requested.

http://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4781278/tom-bradys-agent-explains-thinking-for-why-brady-didnt-turn-over-cell-phone

Another interesting fact omitted: The Patriots lawyers denied access to interviewing the equipment manager, and Tom Brady denied knowing the guy.

http://www.businessinsider.com/explanation-deflategate-penalties-brady-patriots-2015-5

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
Dangit eff Cohn in his ballz now this genuspatriot guy is gonna go crazy now trying to defend his boy.

I was perfectly willing to let this thread die but we don't go here to not talk about football.

Yeah hopefully you were because every single argument that you brought up has already been argued time and time again. It's like what's the point? We've heard it already and it's been easily countered.

6 years from now, Jimmy "The Gift " will have about 3 SB rings, and he too, will be compared to Joe Money...and who actually is better... it wont be with Tom " Soft Balls" Brady ... and that's how you see and say that JOE MONTANA is still the greatest because of the QBs being compared to him..

Originally posted by genus49:
It was literally right there.

Cohn's main argument is centered around the QB rating. Joe was drafted by one of the best offensive minds in the game in Bill Walsh who tailored his offense around him an offense which helps QBs improve their QB rating in essence by design. It was an offense that was still pretty new to the league and it got even better as we added guys like Craig and Rice.

Aaron Rodgers has the best QB rating in history of the game..should he be considered the greatest? Any article written with the main point being made off one stat is flawed and most people with an agenda can find a stat to go off of.

I already said why I think Brady is the best ever. To me what he's done in the salary cap/free agency era is crazy and nobody else comes even close and yes I'm not going to assume that Montana in today's NFL somehow plays til he's 40+ at a high level. There are guys today who are injury prone just like Joe was back in the day. In fact one argument I see around here for why Joe was better is his mobility...well mobile QBs are the ones who tend to get hurt more often than the statue pocket QBs.

I dont see how your points hang together. Are you saying the WCO was ntended to pad joe's stats? And winning suber bowls was coincidental?

I would in fact take rogers over Brady for various reasons... primarily becuase I don't think thaty you capture the quality of a player through stats. Rogers has ther fastest release of any qb I have seen including marino, Namath, whomever. I think if rogers was in the wco instead of Joe he would do a better job than brady.My 2c. walsh would scheme him a lot like Joe because they have similar characteristics. With Brady in there it would morph into a different system.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

I dont see how your points hang together. Are you saying the WCO was ntended to pad joe's stats? And winning suber bowls was coincidental?

I would in fact take rogers over Brady for various reasons... primarily becuase I don't think thaty you capture the quality of a player through stats. Rogers has ther fastest release of any qb I have seen including marino, Namath, whomever. I think if rogers was in the wco instead of Joe he would do a better job than brady.My 2c. walsh would scheme him a lot like Joe because they have similar characteristics. With Brady in there it would morph into a different system.

No I'm saying the WCO leads itself to numbers that lead to a higher QB rating. Joe being selected by Walsh and having an offense built around him gave us a leg up on the competition and as a by product of that Joe's numbers stood out among his peers as the rest of the league was using the old passing schemes which kept accuracy down and impacted the QB rating numbers.

I am trying to let this thread die especially cuz it's the offseason and I'm excited for Jimmy G. As I've said how I view the GOAT situation and I do think Brady's continued success and improved play puts him above his competition during his time.

Rodgers is a superbly talented QB but he doesn't have that extra IT factor like Brady and Joe does. He's certainly not Peyton Manning level but while he's the most talented QB in the game I don't trust him as much as Brady or Joe.

Originally posted by smithordie:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by smithordie:

I'm fairly certain you're leaving out critical facts,,,

When the information was first requested, Brady refused to turn the information over. Brady did not turn the information over until his appeal. And the information he did turn over was missing everything from the second half of that season. It only contained information from before November '14 and after March '15.

The cell phone Brady destroyed was the cell phone used between November '14 and March '15. Kind of odd Brady didn't destroy the cell phone he used before November or after March, but did destroy the cell phone he used during the last half of that season leading up to the SB.

That's not true. He provided all the information through his lawyer but he did not provide the actual phone, which wasn't actually requested.

The information was not provided to the NFL when requested.

http://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4781278/tom-bradys-agent-explains-thinking-for-why-brady-didnt-turn-over-cell-phone

Another interesting fact omitted: The Patriots lawyers denied access to interviewing the equipment manager, and Tom Brady denied knowing the guy.

http://www.businessinsider.com/explanation-deflategate-penalties-brady-patriots-2015-5

Lmao!!
Genus puts "all the information that was requested was turned over.... except the phone!!"

Does he not understand that was one of the main items they requested!

he keeps defendin the cheaters! Lol

Originally posted by jeepzilla:

Lmao!!
Genus puts "all the information that was requested was turned over.... except the phone!!"

Does he not understand that was one of the main items they requested!

he keeps defendin the cheaters! Lol

They did not request the phone it says it right in that article and any you actually look up. If smithordie is talking about Brady didn't turn it over literally that moment then he's right and I don't blame him at all considering how the NFL treated player privacy before. He and his team did however provide the information they asked for and more.

They had his info and the info from the other guys involved and had 0 pointing to Brady asking the balls to be deflated UNDER the legal amount. It's a witch hunt and using that to discredit his play on the field is lazy and pathetic.

How could they have turned over all the information if the phone was destroyed?

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Can we please not talk about the salary cap without also mentioning why it exists; unfettered free agency which didn't exist during the Joe Montana era. So yes it's hard to keep a team together but it's also possible with enough cap room to build a dream team.

Imagine if you will Randy Moss becoming a free agent and gets acquired by the 49ers along with Rice or Taylor? Or let's be more era-specific. Charles Haley leaves, but the 49ers bring in Derrick Thomas or Bruce Irvin or find a way to pry Lawrence Taylor away from the Giants. Craig leaves for the Raiders and Barry Sanders refuses to sign a a deal in Detroit and joins a Montana offense in its prime.

Cohn did provide facts; universal truth - rule changes intentionally helped the offense and protect QB health. That's not undisputed. He didn't just say that Brady got better, but all QBs got better on average. That again was intentional and undisputed.

There is no "salary cap" era - it's the Free Agency era so organizations wouldn't have an unfair advantage because an owner could pour more money into his team because he owned a franchise in a larger market or just liked spending excessively on his players.

IMHO, the era of Free Agency makes it much easier for teams to go from worst to first. The strategy is no more difficult for maintaining success than before - just different. Pre- Free Agency era, you lived and died by draft picks and back then drafted players often made more than NFL vets. These days I'd you screw up a pick here or there, not the end of the world, you can cover yourself with a decent FA. Of course the one constant remains - you must have a QB. Everything else can have a combo of drafted or acquired.

The inference is that Montana wouldn't be as or more successful in the Free Agency era with different characters outside of "Rice /Taylor " which I've always disputed and one of very few QBs white took two different organizations to the playoffs.

The real question we should ask is if Brady is successful without Hoodie? I think that's a much stronger argument than whether Montana would be successful outside Walsh's 49ers or generally successful in today's era.

You're right free agency makes it easier for teams to go from worst to first...which isn't what the Pats are doing. The fact that they're able to keep winning with free agency and the salary cap in play is super impressive.

The proof is in the pudding and in the salary cap/free agency era(whatever you want to call it) there has only been one dynasty and only one QB who has won more than 2 SBs and went to more than 4 SBs.

Your last part is once again getting into hypotheticals. But if you want to go there I'd say Brady at least as a QB has a great chance to be successful with any coach considering as a pocket passer with a super fast release he can fit in almost any scheme plus look at the results Belichick had with Drew Bledsoe who was a pretty damn good QB. People love to point out how many games Matt Cassel won when Brady got hurt but that team was much more talented and the decline by the QB was pretty clear. The Pats also missed the playoffs that year and lost 6 more games than the year prior in the regular season which is a pretty big swing.

Meanwhile Bill Walsh specifically drafted Joe due to scheme fit and put together an offense around him tailored for his skillsets. I'm not going to say that Joe couldn't succeed with another HC/team but if we're talking about QB rating then Joe had a much bigger advantage partnering up with Walsh than Brady did with Belichick.

I can also argue that Belichick who was a defensive minded head coach had Brady be more of a game manager early in his career and it was Brady's ability and improvement that allowed Belichick to trust that he can put the offense on Brady's shoulders and let him throw the ball as much as he started to.

Like I said if people want to think Montana is better that's fine. Personally when deciding who the GOAT is I'm looking at the whole picture and yes wins are part of it and Brady's ability to win in an era where teams go from worst to first and from first to crap all the time the continued success is crazy. And yes longevity is also part of it. A QB should not be playing at that level at 40 years old. We'll see how he does at 41, that cliff comes up fast.

Wouldn't the bolded mean that the 49ers (or any other team from previous eras) had tougher competition, since the top teams were able to be so deep in terms of talent?

Originally posted by smithordie:
How could they have turned over all the information if the phone was destroyed?

You can get the information without pulling it from the phone.

If we're being non biased...if you were Tom Brady would you hand your phone over to those guys? Remember what happened to Richie Incognito?

Hell he didn't hand his phone over and they still f*cked him by letting non deflategate stuff leak

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/tom-brady-in-email-ive-got-another-7-8-years-peyton-manning-has-2/

I really don't understand how 49er fans can support what happened to Brady and the Pats by the NFL and Goodell. Do you guys not recall the Lance Briggs tampering situation? The fact is Goodell picks and chooses when and how he punishes teams. We didn't even sign Briggs and got slammed for it with fines, loss of draft capital.

Meanwhile his old employer tampers with Revis to the point where they actually sign him in free agency right after and they get a tiny fine that Woody Johnson probably wiped his ass with.

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Wouldn't the bolded mean that the 49ers (or any other team from previous eras) had tougher competition, since the top teams were able to be so deep in terms of talent?

Sure pre cap era allowed some really strong teams to exist for extended periods of time but like I said it was a great boost to teams like the 49ers who were able to draft well and bring in talent and then keep that talent.

The reason I'm so impressed by what the Pats and Brady have been able to do is because despite their teams changing over the years so much they've kept winning. It's something no other team was able to accomplish in the same era.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Wouldn't the bolded mean that the 49ers (or any other team from previous eras) had tougher competition, since the top teams were able to be so deep in terms of talent?

Sure pre cap era allowed some really strong teams to exist for extended periods of time but like I said it was a great boost to teams like the 49ers who were able to draft well and bring in talent and then keep that talent.

The reason I'm so impressed by what the Pats and Brady have been able to do is because despite their teams changing over the years so much they've kept winning. It's something no other team was able to accomplish in the same era.

I totally get it. What I'm saying is, the although the 49ers could keep talent, so could the Bears, Redskins, Giants, etc. Tougher teams, better coaches, definitely tougher defenses, etc.

I think Belichek, much like Walsh, knew the importance of the QB, and where to spend in players to keep a team on top. I don't think other teams have figured that out OR can make up for that in the Xs and Os to topple NE.