Joe Montana Legacy Secured

Brady a cheating pos

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
99.. Nice stats. However, I dont think anyone is saying that Joe hasnt been the best in SuperBowls. If it was simply who is the GOAT in the SB this wouldnt be a debate.

I like how people don't give Tom credit for his FG kicker winning games.

Lets not forget that in the 49ers first SB they didn't score a TD in the second half of that game. They only had 2 FGs. They had a 20-0 lead at halftime because of 3 Cincy turnovers and almost blew it. Joe got that MVP doe for his decent first half. lol

Montana
14/22 157 yards 1 TD, 1 rushing TD. Longest pass play was 22 yards.
those are very alex smithy type numbers for a Super Bowl MVP lol

Originally posted by SoCold:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
99.. Nice stats. However, I dont think anyone is saying that Joe hasnt been the best in SuperBowls. If it was simply who is the GOAT in the SB this wouldnt be a debate.

I like how people don't give Tom credit for his FG kicker winning games.

Lets not forget that in the 49ers first SB they didn't score a TD in the second half of that game. They only had 2 FGs. They had a 20-0 lead at halftime because of 3 Cincy turnovers and almost blew it. Joe got that MVP doe for his decent first half. lol

I agree. Its like he gets no credit in here for taking his team down the field in the last 2 minutes to set up the game winning or tying FGs by Vinateri. Dumb.

Joe didnt play great at all in SB 16. That was a very strange game with the Niners basically doing nothing at all in the 2nd half and needing the great goal line stand lead by Bunz and Hacksaw to help preserve the win. But, he was incredible in the other 3 SBs and his numbers as a whole are certainly off the charts. No interceptions in 4 games is pretty hard to beat!

Maybe some of the younger crowd in here bases the GOAT primarily on the SBs because those are the only games they have gone back and watched. I mean, how many regular season games or even early playoff games are out there to watch?

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by SoCold:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
99.. Nice stats. However, I dont think anyone is saying that Joe hasnt been the best in SuperBowls. If it was simply who is the GOAT in the SB this wouldnt be a debate.

I like how people don't give Tom credit for his FG kicker winning games.

Lets not forget that in the 49ers first SB they didn't score a TD in the second half of that game. They only had 2 FGs. They had a 20-0 lead at halftime because of 3 Cincy turnovers and almost blew it. Joe got that MVP doe for his decent first half. lol

I agree. Its like he gets no credit in here for taking his team down the field in the last 2 minutes to set up the game winning or tying FGs by Vinateri. Dumb.

Joe didnt play great at all in SB 16. That was a very strange game with the Niners basically doing nothing at all in the 2nd half and needing the great goal line stand lead by Bunz and Hacksaw to help preserve the win. But, he was incredible in the other 3 SBs and his numbers as a whole are certainly off the charts. No interceptions in 4 games is pretty hard to beat!

Maybe some of the younger crowd in here bases the GOAT primarily on the SBs because those are the only games they have gone back and watched. I mean, how many regular season games or even early playoff games are out there to watch?

Good points. I cringed when they showed highlights of that horrible Montana playoff game where he had 3 INTs.

His best game was the Super Bowl vs Denver. They had the #1 defense that year and he made them look silly.

Originally posted by theduke85:

Originally posted by fan49:
And i dont care iof you go to 30 superbowls, and win only 4 or 5. undefeated is undefeated

This argument is absolutely horrible, and yet countless 49ers fans continue to argue it until they are blue in the face.

Losing in the Super Bowl should not matter. If Montana was undefeated in the playoffs it would certainly have merit, but there were many times he was eliminated from the playoffs, sometimes in the first game off the playoffs. Losing the opening game of the playoffs is not better than losing in the Super Bowl. That's like saying, "well, finishing 2nd is worse than finish 6th." It's just asinine.

The funny thing about these discussion is that if you go to a Patriots site, everyone says that Brady is without a doubt the GOAT. If you go to a Niners site, the vast majority of people say that Montana is without a doubt the GOAT. It's funny -- it's almost like there's bias at play. Must just be a coincidence though. ;)

Speaking of playoffs, Montana does have a better passer rating, td%, and a few other stats on Brady, albeit in 10 less games.

Damn his injuries and Young breathing down his neck, and Roger Craig. There's a good chance if he was healthy through the '93 season we would have beaten those Cowchips and won another SB or two. But yeah, woulda coulda shoudla.

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by SoCold:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

99.. Nice stats. However, I dont think anyone is saying that Joe hasnt been the best in SuperBowls. If it was simply who is the GOAT in the SB this wouldnt be a debate.

I like how people don't give Tom credit for his FG kicker winning games.

Lets not forget that in the 49ers first SB they didn't score a TD in the second half of that game. They only had 2 FGs. They had a 20-0 lead at halftime because of 3 Cincy turnovers and almost blew it. Joe got that MVP doe for his decent first half. lol

I agree. Its like he gets no credit in here for taking his team down the field in the last 2 minutes to set up the game winning or tying FGs by Vinateri. Dumb.

Joe didnt play great at all in SB 16. That was a very strange game with the Niners basically doing nothing at all in the 2nd half and needing the great goal line stand lead by Bunz and Hacksaw to help preserve the win. But, he was incredible in the other 3 SBs and his numbers as a whole are certainly off the charts. No interceptions in 4 games is pretty hard to beat!

Maybe some of the younger crowd in here bases the GOAT primarily on the SBs because those are the only games they have gone back and watched. I mean, how many regular season games or even early playoff games are out there to watch?

IIRC The 49ers had the game well in hand at the half, and seemed to relax in the 2nd half. The D was the goat and the hero, letting the Bengals back in it, but then stuffing them when it mattered. I have no problem with Montana winning that MVP because later on he didnt get the MVP after his career defining drive in SB 23.

Im not arguing that Montana had a better statistical career. Brady's regular season track record is amazing. But the only reason hes been able to amass such an impressive, lengthy career is because of the modern day safety rules that essentially make him untouchable.

Imagine the career Joe Montana wouldve had in this era of football? No back breaking, shoulder crushing, or elbow smashing injuries? A healthy Montana teamed up with Bill Walsh for 17+ years? Part of what makes him the greatest ever is his resiliency. He was absolutely brutalized throughout his career by some of the fiercest defenses in history, and Joe is not a large man. Steve Young said of all the teammates he had over the years, Montana is the toughest football player he ever played with. I just dont see Brady taking that kind of abuse and still having the kind of success hes had.

Ultimately what defines greatness is how well you performed in the biggest moments. Joe always delivered on the biggest stage. His finest career moments came in the Super Bowl. When I think of Tom Brady's defining moments, I dont think of the Super Bowl.

Weve seen Brady fail in the Super Bowl. Weve seen him walk off the field under the opponents' confetti, defeated. Montana went to 4 Super Bowls, won all 4, threw 11 TD's, threw 0 picks, completed 68% of his passes, had an all-time best passer rating of 127.8. We never saw anything else other than that.

With the way he capped off his Niner career before the injuries got the best of him, 2 more Super Bowls and 2 MVP's, its just hard to give Brady the GOAT lifetime achievement award.

Montana didnt go to 11 title games and 7 Super Bowls, and he didn't accumulate the regular season numbers Brady has, but he had a great regular season career, and was the most brilliant championship performer in NFL history.

99... Again.. no debate on SBs. However Joe had some very poor playoff games. From 85-87 the Niners had 3 terrible losses in the playoffs. Parcells teams dominated Joe and the Niners in 85 and 86 and Joe had just an awful game in the 87 game versus Minnesota. He was actually pulled in favor of Steve Young by Walsh. I know because I was there and probably the most upset I had ever been for a fb game. He wasnt always great in the biggest moments. No one is. He had many more great moments than bad but he certainly wasnt perfect.

I dont think there IS a clear GOAT. That has been my point all along so I am neither in the Joe or Brady camp. If anything I would give Brady the edge in non-SBs and Joe the edge in SBs.

Two different eras cannot be compared.

Originally posted by smithgdwg:
Two different eras cannot be compared.

that's the same excuse the Ali > Tyson people use. Tyson would've murdered Ali.

Originally posted by ChazBoner:

Originally posted by smithgdwg:
Two different eras cannot be compared.

that's the same excuse the Ali > Tyson people use. Tyson would've murdered Ali.

True. Ali was no Buster Douglas. lol

Originally posted by SoCold:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
99.. Nice stats. However, I dont think anyone is saying that Joe hasnt been the best in SuperBowls. If it was simply who is the GOAT in the SB this wouldnt be a debate.

I like how people don't give Tom credit for his FG kicker winning games.

Lets not forget that in the 49ers first SB they didn't score a TD in the second half of that game. They only had 2 FGs. They had a 20-0 lead at halftime because of 3 Cincy turnovers and almost blew it. Joe got that MVP doe for his decent first half. lol

Montana
14/22 157 yards 1 TD, 1 rushing TD. Longest pass play was 22 yards.
those are very alex smithy type numbers for a Super Bowl MVP lol

And you don't give credit to Joe for playing in a tougher era where QBs were injured much more often and it was standard to be playing with pain. Joe got his 4 super bowls faster than Brady. The whole argument should be "How many Super Bowls could they get in each others eras" -- It took brady a long time to get #4, and that was with him being much much healthier than Joe.

If Joe had been in the condition Brady got to be in for his career, Joe would have won 6 super bowls. Just imagine him playing 18 years, it's easy to see.

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
Speaking of playoffs, Montana does have a better passer rating, td%, and a few other stats on Brady, albeit in 10 less games.

Damn his injuries and Young breathing down his neck, and Roger Craig. There's a good chance if he was healthy through the '93 season we would have beaten those Cowchips and won another SB or two. But yeah, woulda coulda shoudla.

Yes, I don't think there is a clear favorite between Montana/Brady. Both have pros/cons.

Montana's numbers are better because he did it in an era when quarterbacks didn't routinely post ratings in the 90s/100s. Brady's longevity is amazing, but player safety has dramatically cut down on the number of hits QBs take. I'm sure Montana would have stayed healthier if he played today.

There are many points to argue in Montana's favor, but "he was undefeated in the Super Bowl" is not one of them. It's just silly and absolutely illogical.

How is being undefeated in the super bowl a silly or illogical reason to asses performance? It says something. It may not be definitive but it should be considered.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
How is being undefeated in the super bowl a silly or illogical reason to asses performance? It says something. It may not be definitive but it should be considered.

Because football is a team game and a QB can shine in a loss or suck in a win. Look at Kurt Warner. He had a QB rating of 112 and threw for 377 yards and 4 TDS against Pittsburgh. He lost because Ben and Santonio Holmes made one of the great plays in SB history. Should that be held against him?

If John Taylor drops the perfect pass in SB 23 and the Niners lose should Joe's legacy be diminished?

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by ChazBoner:

Originally posted by smithgdwg:
Two different eras cannot be compared.

that's the same excuse the Ali > Tyson people use. Tyson would've murdered Ali.

True. Ali was no Buster Douglas. lol

Tyson was one of my fav boxers (and I can relate more with Tyson era), but George Foreman would've pummeled Tyson, and Ali would've gotten Tyson tired before the end of the 1st round