Joe Montana Legacy Secured

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
Anybody you want. But who's your QB.

for which team and which scheme? if the coach is bill walsh then of course it's montana. if it was belichick then of course it's brady. if it's for my team, seahawks i'll take brady. baldwin would be a favorite target. brady to baldwin would be nasty. and since we don't have a good oline, brady will make sure to dink and dunk.

if it's snowing or raining? brady all the time. for west coast offense, it's montana.

all have different strengths. 2 min left and down by 5, all of these 3 QBs will deliver the goods for their own team because they are comfortable running show with their own weapons, team's schemes, and style.


but if it was a hail mary situation, i'm taking aaron rodgers over anybody.

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
Physical attributes aside though imagine Joe Montana (who could dunk a basketball with two hands) growing up in today's game with access to all of the tangibles today's players enjoy...the ability to throw a football with your arm and your brain doesn't magically evolve over the course of 10-30 years. If you have it you have it.

vertical is a last thing i look for in the QB position. i'm sure guys like deshaun watson could do a windmill and 360 dunks. and growing up today has downsides too. there are too many distractions. internet for ex. back then players were tougher and more focused because players were more disciplined, coached up well, and had much less distractions. so i can't use any hypotheticals to really compare players. i can only use what i have and make educated guesses. when i compare brady now vs. 80's i don't assume brady was born in late 50's. i just send him via time machine. because at the end of the day, we don't know. maybe brady gets baseball scholarship because he baseball was actually more popular in the 70's. there are just too many variables. and if montana played in this era, i'm sure he would've played at 220lb-225lb. because if you don't hit that weight you won't even get to play in this league.

anyway brady has better arm strength than montana. easily. brady developed a cannon gradually and his arm became lethal in 2007. rodgers easily has the top 10 best arm ever in the history. he might have the best arm when he goes outside the pocket.

RGIII is a great thrower of the football. but he can't read past his 1st read. he didn't know how to slide. and he only sees the half the field.
i've never seen a QB who see the field better than brady and manning.

montana is natural. we all know that. but we played in an era where the game speed is tad slower than today. his arm strength is more than good enough, but let's not act like he had a cannon. brady in his peak could throw 75 yards bomb after getting beat the giants for 58 min.

rodgers is a freak of nature in terms of his balance and being able to throw on the run. ridiculous power generated from his hip and arm. but rodgers doesn't have brady's presnap ability. that's why he improvises alot and trust his instincts. brady isn't instinctual. brady is a calculated surgeon who already knows what to do with the football. montana had both ability to improvise and be a surgeon. but brady IMO was much better at solving the puzzle before the snap. that's why brady figures out the defense 9 out of 10 times. and yes, it's the team. brady is in unison with mcdaniels and players around him. that's why pats are a well oiled machine for 17 years now.

niners too. i'm not trying to diss niners greatness. but it's been 30 years already. that's a long time for football game to evolve. montana was brady in his generation. but i'm a firm believer new generation beats the old. it's like my iphone. new ones better than the old. almost all the time.

i was secretly hoping my boy russell wilson is that new guy who takes over. but i realize that he's just not the elite passer like brady or rodgers are. he's just a tier or two below.

Originally posted by trooper49:
You can't underestimate the effect of the injury in the playoff game against the Giants. After that, Montana didn't play for a couple years, was than traded to the Chiefs, and was a much physically older player when he came back than Brady appears to be. Without that injury there would have been an almost certain Super Bowl win, and the following two or three years would have been totally different. Montana was going for a three-peat. What if he had won 4 or 5 Super Bowls in a row, which I think was likely.

Lest you forget Montana got the Chiefs to the AFC title game in 93-94!

Originally posted by trooper49:
You can't underestimate the effect of the injury in the playoff game against the Giants. After that, Montana didn't play for a couple years, was than traded to the Chiefs, and was a much physically older player when he came back than Brady appears to be. Without that injury there would have been an almost certain Super Bowl win, and the following two or three years would have been totally different. Montana was going for a three-peat. What if he had won 4 or 5 Super Bowls in a row, which I think was likely.

IMO montana could've played good 4-5 more years if he really wanted to. but football ain't really fun anywmore when you achieved everything you wanted. sure he won't be a top 5 QB in mid to late 90's but he would've been better than alot of QBs.

but all the great things come to an end. and him watching steve young flourish probably hurt his pride a little. that happens. there were no itch left to scratch for him.


and talk about 3 peat. IMO pats had a great chance to 3 peat in 2007-2009. just wasn't meant to be. fluke catch ruined 2007 season. and brady got injured in 08. and 2009 was a year brady had to fight back to get back in football shape and then welker got hurt. brady still had moss and welker and defense was still SB worthy. what if scenarios or run. maybe my seahawks have 2 rings this decade. but yeah we got schooled by BB at the end. it's a diabolical that he didn't call a time out. he knew what he was doing. we knew the play. butler and browner saw it coming too. that's why pats are the greatest to me. they out prepare anybody. so sickening

Arm strength doesnt equate to throwing technique. Montana delivered extremely catchable bombs slants dinks and outs. Brady has a stronger arm but not joes touch.

Also, joe is the master brain surgeon not tom. Joe had better judgement stepping back a checking off progressions and could buy time or hurt you running. Brady not as elite in those areas.

Im surprised about your pre snap statements. Brady of has twenty years of savvy so he is decisive and sophosticated for sure. But i dont notice him calling out of formation with a big gainer very often. So i havent seen that.


A lot of the era comparisom is beside the point. Today we have the internet and way more sophisticated drugs. So its a wash.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Arm strength doesnt equate to throwing technique. Montana delivered extremely catchable bombs slants dinks and outs. Brady has a stronger arm but not joes touch.

Also, joe is the master brain surgeon not tom. Joe had better judgement stepping back a checking off progressions and could buy time or hurt you running. Brady not as elite in those areas.

Im surprised about your pre snap statements. Brady of has twenty years of savvy so he is decisive and sophosticated for sure. But i dont notice him calling out of formation with a big gainer very often. So i havent seen that.


A lot of the era comparisom is beside the point. Today we have the internet and way more sophisticated drugs. So its a wash.

as far as touch goes nobody beats peyton manning. manning had the best touch.

brady throws lasers anything under 25 yards. so pats only deal with WRs with good hands. they better be ready for the laser. if you drop a ball then you are out. pats don't deal with WRs with bad hands.

so if the WR corp have great talents but many bad hands i think both montana and manning would work out better.


audible =/= presnap abiilty. brady audibles too, but not as much as peyton manning who basically changes the play more than anybody i've seen.

brady takes what the defense gives to him. and he assigns correct protection and dissect the D. you gotta have an ability to dissect who's sam and will and where the pressure is coming first because half time brady is in the spread, so it's critical for him to get the protection he needs. and brady goes through progression like no other player i've seen. that's the vision these elite QBs have. they see everything.

if you don't think brady's game is surgical i don't know what to tell you. i don't know if i want to continue the conversation with any of you who thinks brady's not a surgical QB. i mean what have you guys seen in the past how long years? why would pats always rank top 3 offense almost every year? you can call it a magical system, but brady is the QB. brady does better than anybody i've seen to exploit the weaknesses, deliver the accurate ball to mismatches, and ultimately throw the ball, so WRs can go run with it. peyton manning was greatest at confusing the D.

my analogy would be -

brady, montana = surgeon
peyton manning = mad scientist
favre, young elway = gamer
rodgers = out talent

brady's game is precision/surgical just like montana. i don't know what you've watched all of those years. you can say montana was better than brady. i have no problem with that. but saying brady didn't have precision in his game is flat out disrespectful. i actually never heard that in any places.

that long bomb TD he threw to hogan against the ravens this year is also a perfect example of brady's mastery of the D. he baits weddle and throws a bomb to hogan in stride. that's how brady manipulates the D without calling audible. how they went up tempo against the steelers early and often because brady knew they won't be able to stop it with that soft zone. pats offense is really fun to watch if you really watch them with some objectivity. i know it's very easy to hate on pats. it's like how everybody hates bama. but what they do is amazing. they took our best shot. we got them pinned down in the sB. but brady got back up and dissected our D.

Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
I grew up in the 90s so I remember a fading Montana, Steve Young with a loaded team finally getting it done, wishing Aikman would die, and facing Favre the 49er killer.

Truthfully, I can only rate QBs from the late 90's forward. Its kind of silly to say that as a 10 year old or something you can judge QBs. For me, only considering guys that played into the 2000s and beyond, my top 10:

1. Tom Brady
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Peyton Manning
4. Drew Brees
5. Kurt Warner
6. Brett Favre
7. Ben Roethlisberger
8. Michael Vick
9. Russell Wilson
10. Cam Newton

If Matt Ryan is able to pull off a SB win, I'd probably bump him on the list over Cam.

That right there is a good example of something a person would never understand the magnitude of if they don't watch games. His won loss record and statistics do not tell the whole story. That SOB seemed to complete countless passes into tight double and triple coverage, batted balls would always seem to find their way into the hands of Packer receivers. Favre was good, but against the 49ers he seemed to have lady luck on his side. I bet he even called the pregame coin flip correct 100% of the time against the 49ers. As for wishing Aikman would die I hated Michael Irvin he would always make a big catch at the worst possible time.

Originally posted by trooper49:
You can't underestimate the effect of the injury in the playoff game against the Giants. After that, Montana didn't play for a couple years, was than traded to the Chiefs, and was a much physically older player when he came back than Brady appears to be. Without that injury there would have been an almost certain Super Bowl win, and the following two or three years would have been totally different. Montana was going for a three-peat. What if he had won 4 or 5 Super Bowls in a row, which I think was likely.

Agreed.

I got to believe Montana would have added a couple more SB wins to his resume if he stuck around. Young had loaded teams and only won 1 with Seifert ... Also, I don't think Packers / Favre would've owned Joe the way they did Steve.

I don't know about 4 or 5 in a row, but he may have been closer to a three-peat more than any other QB in history...

Originally posted by natediaz:
is that why we have more injuries than ever before? helmet doesn't protect you. helmet becomes the ultimate weapon. players launch because of the helmet. if they didn't have a helmet, maybe they won't launch like that and try to protect their pretty face.

and there's a big difference between a 6ft 2 240lb guy who runs 4.7 coming at you vs. 6ft 5 290lb who runs same 4.7. it's called physics.

and by your logic, 70's steelers are so much better than any 80's teams including any niners because hits in 70's weren't even hits. they could close line you they could all kinds of crazy stuff.

i have no respect for any teams in 70's because the whole era was roid rage. it's barbaric and uncivilized. thankfully football has grown into a legit sport.

this whole argument is just like my other favorite sports MMA. back then there were no rules. you could pretty much do anything including groin shots. but today's fighters will destroy them even though rules are softer. why? because the game has evolved. because athletes evolved.

football continues to evolve. it's the multi billion dollar sports. and it's not just for a tough guys. it's a cerebral game. game is much smarter now then ever before.

Something tells me you never played organized tackle football or you did and got so many concussions you forgot that you did. Between High School and College, practice and games at personally going from 175 lbs to 225 lbs I hit guys from 125 lbs up to 375 lbs. There were 175 pound guys that were a pain in the butt to engage and 300 pound guys you could run through easier than kicking over a traffic cone. I have seen guys with big impressive muscles you could throw around like a rag doll and wiry guys who were like tangling with an angry lion. With a lot of football related things you can throw your physics right out the window. Balance, timing and instincts play a big part on the football field and you can't measure them.

Originally posted by natediaz:

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
Physical attributes aside though imagine Joe Montana (who could dunk a basketball with two hands) growing up in today's game with access to all of the tangibles today's players enjoy...the ability to throw a football with your arm and your brain doesn't magically evolve over the course of 10-30 years. If you have it you have it.

vertical is a last thing i look for in the QB position. i'm sure guys like deshaun watson could do a windmill and 360 dunks. and growing up today has downsides too. there are too many distractions. internet for ex. back then players were tougher and more focused because players were more disciplined, coached up well, and had much less distractions. so i can't use any hypotheticals to really compare players. i can only use what i have and make educated guesses. when i compare brady now vs. 80's i don't assume brady was born in late 50's. i just send him via time machine. because at the end of the day, we don't know. maybe brady gets baseball scholarship because he baseball was actually more popular in the 70's. there are just too many variables. and if montana played in this era, i'm sure he would've played at 220lb-225lb. because if you don't hit that weight you won't even get to play in this league.

anyway brady has better arm strength than montana. easily. brady developed a cannon gradually and his arm became lethal in 2007. rodgers easily has the top 10 best arm ever in the history. he might have the best arm when he goes outside the pocket.

RGIII is a great thrower of the football. but he can't read past his 1st read. he didn't know how to slide. and he only sees the half the field.
i've never seen a QB who see the field better than brady and manning.

montana is natural. we all know that. but we played in an era where the game speed is tad slower than today. his arm strength is more than good enough, but let's not act like he had a cannon. brady in his peak could throw 75 yards bomb after getting beat the giants for 58 min.

rodgers is a freak of nature in terms of his balance and being able to throw on the run. ridiculous power generated from his hip and arm. but rodgers doesn't have brady's presnap ability. that's why he improvises alot and trust his instincts. brady isn't instinctual. brady is a calculated surgeon who already knows what to do with the football. montana had both ability to improvise and be a surgeon. but brady IMO was much better at solving the puzzle before the snap. that's why brady figures out the defense 9 out of 10 times. and yes, it's the team. brady is in unison with mcdaniels and players around him. that's why pats are a well oiled machine for 17 years now.

niners too. i'm not trying to diss niners greatness. but it's been 30 years already. that's a long time for football game to evolve. montana was brady in his generation. but i'm a firm believer new generation beats the old. it's like my iphone. new ones better than the old. almost all the time.

i was secretly hoping my boy russell wilson is that new guy who takes over. but i realize that he's just not the elite passer like brady or rodgers are. he's just a tier or two below.

You're thinking too technically here. Humans aren't machines. And brain power doesn't magically get 1000x more powerful in only 20 years. The only thing changing are advances in nutrition, equipment, and training. Level the playing field here and it's a different scenario. Heck even Warren Moon > 75% of the QB's today. Dude was a physical freak who could make all the throws with a flick of his wrist and he played what 18-20 seasons combined in the CFL/NFL?

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:

Originally posted by natediaz:

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
Physical attributes aside though imagine Joe Montana (who could dunk a basketball with two hands) growing up in today's game with access to all of the tangibles today's players enjoy...the ability to throw a football with your arm and your brain doesn't magically evolve over the course of 10-30 years. If you have it you have it.

vertical is a last thing i look for in the QB position. i'm sure guys like deshaun watson could do a windmill and 360 dunks. and growing up today has downsides too. there are too many distractions. internet for ex. back then players were tougher and more focused because players were more disciplined, coached up well, and had much less distractions. so i can't use any hypotheticals to really compare players. i can only use what i have and make educated guesses. when i compare brady now vs. 80's i don't assume brady was born in late 50's. i just send him via time machine. because at the end of the day, we don't know. maybe brady gets baseball scholarship because he baseball was actually more popular in the 70's. there are just too many variables. and if montana played in this era, i'm sure he would've played at 220lb-225lb. because if you don't hit that weight you won't even get to play in this league.

anyway brady has better arm strength than montana. easily. brady developed a cannon gradually and his arm became lethal in 2007. rodgers easily has the top 10 best arm ever in the history. he might have the best arm when he goes outside the pocket.

RGIII is a great thrower of the football. but he can't read past his 1st read. he didn't know how to slide. and he only sees the half the field.
i've never seen a QB who see the field better than brady and manning.

montana is natural. we all know that. but we played in an era where the game speed is tad slower than today. his arm strength is more than good enough, but let's not act like he had a cannon. brady in his peak could throw 75 yards bomb after getting beat the giants for 58 min.

rodgers is a freak of nature in terms of his balance and being able to throw on the run. ridiculous power generated from his hip and arm. but rodgers doesn't have brady's presnap ability. that's why he improvises alot and trust his instincts. brady isn't instinctual. brady is a calculated surgeon who already knows what to do with the football. montana had both ability to improvise and be a surgeon. but brady IMO was much better at solving the puzzle before the snap. that's why brady figures out the defense 9 out of 10 times. and yes, it's the team. brady is in unison with mcdaniels and players around him. that's why pats are a well oiled machine for 17 years now.

niners too. i'm not trying to diss niners greatness. but it's been 30 years already. that's a long time for football game to evolve. montana was brady in his generation. but i'm a firm believer new generation beats the old. it's like my iphone. new ones better than the old. almost all the time.

i was secretly hoping my boy russell wilson is that new guy who takes over. but i realize that he's just not the elite passer like brady or rodgers are. he's just a tier or two below.

You're thinking too technically here. Humans aren't machines. And brain power doesn't magically get 1000x more powerful in only 20 years. The only thing changing are advances in nutrition, equipment, and training. Level the playing field here and it's a different scenario. Heck even Warren Moon > 75% of the QB's today. Dude was a physical freak who could make all the throws with a flick of his wrist and he played what 18-20 seasons combined in the CFL/NFL?

warren moon is a top 15 greatest i've seen. he was a great player. but let's not call him a physical freak, but because he wasn't. he was a great passer of the football, but i don't use the word 'freak' often. michael vick was better arm much better feet. but yeah vick wasn't accurate.

and bring up any old guys in the past, i'll take my chance with aaron rodgers who is far better thrower of the football than moon ever was. but arm strength is just part of equation. if it wasn't the most important factor in QB play, i'm sure jay cutler would've done better.

and there are many transcendent players in all eras. and it's not just an athletic evolution. i'm also talking about evolution in football how the game always expands. how we are exposed so much more new information. but yeah some coaches never learn. mike tomlin for example. i mean tampa 2 against brady? what a joke that was. brady dissected that defense so badly i don't even know why he's still coaching.

a great team adapts in today's nfl. you don't force your will to other players. that's why pats are so great. they are weak to weak team. they can change things up at any given qtr. now that's today's elite NFL team.

Originally posted by BobS:

Originally posted by natediaz:
is that why we have more injuries than ever before? helmet doesn't protect you. helmet becomes the ultimate weapon. players launch because of the helmet. if they didn't have a helmet, maybe they won't launch like that and try to protect their pretty face.

and there's a big difference between a 6ft 2 240lb guy who runs 4.7 coming at you vs. 6ft 5 290lb who runs same 4.7. it's called physics.

and by your logic, 70's steelers are so much better than any 80's teams including any niners because hits in 70's weren't even hits. they could close line you they could all kinds of crazy stuff.

i have no respect for any teams in 70's because the whole era was roid rage. it's barbaric and uncivilized. thankfully football has grown into a legit sport.

this whole argument is just like my other favorite sports MMA. back then there were no rules. you could pretty much do anything including groin shots. but today's fighters will destroy them even though rules are softer. why? because the game has evolved. because athletes evolved.

football continues to evolve. it's the multi billion dollar sports. and it's not just for a tough guys. it's a cerebral game. game is much smarter now then ever before.

Something tells me you never played organized tackle football or you did and got so many concussions you forgot that you did. Between High School and College, practice and games at personally going from 175 lbs to 225 lbs I hit guys from 125 lbs up to 375 lbs. There were 175 pound guys that were a pain in the butt to engage and 300 pound guys you could run through easier than kicking over a traffic cone. I have seen guys with big impressive muscles you could throw around like a rag doll and wiry guys who were like tangling with an angry lion. With a lot of football related things you can throw your physics right out the window. Balance, timing and instincts play a big part on the football field and you can't measure them.

"there's a big difference between a 6ft 2 240lb guy who runs 4.7 coming at you vs. 6ft 5 290lb who runs same 4.7. it's called physics."

And again, mostly everyone on the field back in Joe's era weighed a lot less than guys now, and mainly the front seven defenders / offensive linemen.

Sure the front seven is bigger and faster now, but so is the offensive linemen. We're not talking about 260 lb olinemen (Joe's era) protecting QBs these days against 260 lb linebackers / 6'5 290 lb linemen!!

Let's stop using that bigger defenders excuse while ignoring the fact that oilinemen are bigger, stronger, faster as well and developed to handle defenders of today. The game evolved / evolves because the ALL PLAYERS evolve (not just LBs / linemen).

Steroids / PEDs weren't as big an issue back in those days (Joe's era) when players weren't bigger / faster than today's players. TE's, FBs/RBs are more developed to help olinemen block these bigger / faster defenders, as well. Science / drugs have also improved significantly. Players can heal faster and get stronger. But that would exclude Montana somehow (you wish)

this isn't my theory. the game is faster now then before. that's pretty much factual. i was reading article about it. it's the history of sports in general. maybe there were better RBs running the show because run game was much more emphasized back then. but as far as QB goes they have to get better because it's a passing league. it's the simple truth.

and yes, bigger doesn't always mean better. but it has so much more advantages in the game of football. like i said i follow college football religiously. i don't want jourdan lewis who's 5ft 10 near my team. i don't want 5ft 10 CB anymore after having how successful richard sherman has been. i want 6ft 1+ guy with a long arm great hips. for DE i really hate undersized DEs. i just can't trust them. first they get banged up so much more. and they just come and go. yeah JJ watt is a freak, but i want a guy who's 6ft 5 280lb+ with really long arm. because LTs are growing too. and they are freaky athletic. i mean 6ft 7 310lb running sub 4.9?

and WRs. ideally i want 3 different body type. i want a shift slot WR, a crafty #2 WR who is versatile, and #1 WR like megatron/julio jones. that's ideal for me. and TE better block and become dominant. after seeing guys like gronk, prime graham, i want TE to be a major part of the game especially when my team refuses spend draft picks on the OL.

game changes all the time. it evolves. all the time. and players are human who will adapt to the game that evolves.

Originally posted by LVJay:
Steroids / PEDs weren't as big an issue back in those days (Joe's era) when players weren't bigger / faster than today's players. TE's, FBs/RBs are more developed to help olinemen block these bigger / faster defenders, as well. Science / drugs have also improved significantly. Players can heal faster and get stronger. But that would exclude Montana somehow (you wish)

you gotta be kidding me. entire 70's steelers rosters were roid heads. many of them are struggling badly and dead! NFL's steroid era was definitely in the 70's throughout 80's. it really wasn't a big deal back then because game was more exciting with full of roid rage. jack tatum, mean joe greene, and etc. all of them were known users. there's a major documentary about it. and not only steroids, cocaine was a major. lawrence taylor was a major crackhead. i

and it's not just football. your ex governor arnold openly admited the era was very steroid friendly. and don't forget WWF. pretty much all the wrestlers who wrestled in the 80's are dead because of steroid & pain killer abuse. i know steroid use will never be stopped (shawn merriman for ex.) but at least there are more rules and regulation then now then ever before.