Joe Montana Legacy Secured

Originally posted by natediaz:

biggest growth is definitely biggies in the trenches. in 80's there were only 3 linemen over 300lb. they only avg around 265. the freaky thing about is that while these players gained so much mass they really didn't lose much speed.

just watch this year's nfl draft and see how big these guys are. size does matter in sports. no matter how great the 70s and 80's teams were, they will get blown out by the current niners with kaep. i really mean it. the game is decided in the trenches. 260lb dlineman won't be able to move 330lb oilineman. 270lb olineman won't be able to block 300lb dlineman. great anthony munoz has to add 35lb to his frame if he wants to play at a HOF level.

this ends to all the era to era debate. it's a different game.

I think this is just a product of food in general. Cattle feed changes to grain to fatten them up, as well as given them more hormones, which in turn we consume, making people bigger. Also explains why young girls develop a lot younger nowadays. Unless you go the Whole Food route, or something like that.

Originally posted by BobS:
Not sure who the Cowboy is but his build looks very similar to Tony Mandarich who was an admitted roid user who started his NFL career over 25 years ago. There are exceptions to the every rule, but seriously no one yet has told me the so called magic training and or nutrition that creates bigger players without adding fat. The magic bullet is a needle. Barry Bonds never tested dirty, yet he had roid user tattooed on his forehead.

if it is a systemic steroid use and abuse throughout the NFL, then soon we will have bigger steroid fiasco than the baseball. because basically you are saying all of these monsters are juicers.

that's tyron smith. those big guys do have alot of fat. but they also have ton of muscle. but many of them don't look like a typical fat dudes. they are just big dudes. well of course unless you are vince wilfork.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Should we take the drug inflation discussion to another thread? Its tangential to the main topic.

Assume players of all eras are doing the pharma of their time. if joe was playing in 2000's he would be 6'3 220. if brady was playing in the 80' hed be 6'2 215. Not really relevant discussion.

why would joe montana grow 2 inches taller and brady lose 2 inches? did joe suffer through a great depression? malnurished maybe? again, i don't play hypotheticals like that. i just use the information that i have and apply it. brady will always be 6ft 4 3/8. peyton manning will always be 6ft 5. and this is why i keep saying new players are better than the old. because often times new players are better version of the old.

and the size difference is critical in this debate because football is a game of speed and power. i can't ignore it. i brought this up because if current NFL players time travel to 80's and play against those 'men' they would most likely destroy the league simply because they are smaller and slower.

Originally posted by JimA49ers:
I think this is just a product of food in general. Cattle feed changes to grain to fatten them up, as well as given them more hormones, which in turn we consume, making people bigger. Also explains why young girls develop a lot younger nowadays. Unless you go the Whole Food route, or something like that.

i think human's height is kinda maxed out in developed countries. i'm sure average male height will increase, but it will increase by little. i don't believe someday adult male will be 7ft tall in average. i think it's safe to say height has been stabilized. we will probably grow taller by fractions. i'm sure avg height of typical american male of 1985 isn't that much shorter than 2015. but i do think we have more tall people in general simply because we of population growth.

Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
theyre both amazing. bradys numbers are ridiculous, montana's numbers in his era were ridiculous. pats fans will say brady, steelers fans will say bradshaw,greenbay will always say favre, broncos had elway, colts fans will say unitas and we will always say montana. these arguments are stupid and will always be totally biased, but we know Joe is the best

nah. it's usually montana and brady for all other forums maybe except colts forum who likes their guy manning. packers actually have rodgers, not favre. i would say it's more 80/20 toward rodgers.

the GOAT is always crowned by the media. and they push it and shove it to your face till death. and then fans buy into it. steelers fans who despised brady has given up and basically accept it the cold hard reality.

and if brady wins the 5th ring, he will be crowned as the GOAT. many considers both brady and belichick the greatest. but there are some who doesn't consider them #1. you niners fans for example.

Originally posted by crake49:

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
why are we going through all this again? first of all Brady isn't even the best quarterback today. That goes to Aaron Rodgers. stop talking about stacked teams. New England has had plenty of stacked teams and Joe has won Super Bowls without Jerry Rice - 2 in fact.

only people who have actually seen Brady and Montana play should be allowed to post on this thread.

I don't know about not allowing people to post, but I saw ever single game of Montana's career and I have a few thoughts on this.

- it's simply not true that Montana played on what we would call 'stacked' offenses all the time. His receivers in the first two SB's were Dwight Clark and an older Freddie Solomon. I liked both those guys a lot, but anyone who thinks that was a better receiving duo than what Brady has had is just flat out wrong. Solomon was not very fast and Clark was slow. All of Montana's championship teams had great defense - that much is true.

- I don't agree that Brady would have thrived in Montana's era. QB's got just beat up back in those days and Brady hasn't really shown me the mindset of being able to withstand that kind of pressure and beating. For cryin out loud, Brady throws a tantrum if there's an off sides penalty. He's gotten the benefit of lots of protection from the refs that Montana never even dreamed of having. The Giants put Montana in the hospital during one playoff game.

- Yes, Brady gets rid of the ball, but he simply doesn't have the quickness to evade some of the pass rush that Montana dealt with. And Montana actually had a quicker release than Brady does.

- Montana never yelled at team mates, never screamed or glared at the sidelines, etc. He was just in a cooler space while playing the game. And none of Montana's wins were gifts.

Bottom line: I think Brady is one of the great QB's of the modern era, but I actually think it's ridiculous to argue that he's better than Montana. You simply cannot be better than perfect in Super Bowls. You can be as good, but not better. Brady is not perfect; he's great, but the train has already left the station on this. He's thrown interceptions in Super Bowls and he's been on the losing side a couple times... PERIOD!

this is the typical montana fan post which i have zero respect for. it's uninformed, full of hate, and not understanding the brady's greatness. i guess lebron james, michael jordan, and etc are not great because they are passionate about playing basketball. if your memory of brady is throwing a tamper tantrum then jeez maybe your guy is joe flacco. hell flacco didn't throw picks in the SB either. maybe he will get there few times and play great again.

and i guess montana is only perfect player? but what about all those games he lost in the regular season and in the playoffs? oh wait yeah only SBs matter.

but no legacy is secured when a guy does this

Playoff records

First in games started: 33
First in quarterback wins:24
First in passes completed: 788
First in passes attempted: 1,263
First in passing yards: 8,628
First in passing touchdowns: 61
First in game-winning drives: 9
First in fourth-quarter comebacks: 6

Super Bowl records

First in appearances: 7 (counting this year)
First in pass attempts: 247
First in completions: 164
First in passing yards: 1,605
First in passing touchdowns: 13
First in consecutive completions: 16 in 2011
Tied for first in quarterback wins: 4


and that guy isn't slowing down anytime soon. i just don't see how brady will fall off the cliff unless he gets severely injured again. you can have the perfection, but i would rather see my team to go 7 SBs instead of 4. i know 2nd place is the 1st loser. but 2nd place to me is better than 3rd or 4th place. because at least that 2nd place team had a chance to be the 1st.

Originally posted by natediaz:

Originally posted by BobS:
Not sure who the Cowboy is but his build looks very similar to Tony Mandarich who was an admitted roid user who started his NFL career over 25 years ago. There are exceptions to the every rule, but seriously no one yet has told me the so called magic training and or nutrition that creates bigger players without adding fat. The magic bullet is a needle. Barry Bonds never tested dirty, yet he had roid user tattooed on his forehead.

if it is a systemic steroid use and abuse throughout the NFL, then soon we will have bigger steroid fiasco than the baseball. because basically you are saying all of these monsters are juicers.

that's tyron smith. those big guys do have alot of fat. but they also have ton of muscle. but many of them don't look like a typical fat dudes. they are just big dudes. well of course unless you are vince wilfork.

I am just speaking from a lot from personal experience I never saw a guy with huge trap muscles that wasn't cheating. Also for some reason a super tall guy who is huge and somewhat defined is also a rarity even among sports where cheating is out in the open and rampant like pro wrestling and body building. Unless something has changed it is very difficult to eat enough to build huge muscles without getting some fat along with it and too much cardio to burn the fat will cause some muscle mass loss. Of course cheating voids those rules to an extent.

.

Originally posted by natediaz:

why would joe montana grow 2 inches taller and brady lose 2 inches? did joe suffer through a great depression? malnurished maybe? again, i don't play hypotheticals like that. i just use the information that i have and apply it. brady will always be 6ft 4 3/8. peyton manning will always be 6ft 5. and this is why i keep saying new players are better than the old. because often times new players are better version of the old.

and the size difference is critical in this debate because football is a game of speed and power. i can't ignore it. i brought this up because if current NFL players time travel to 80's and play against those 'men' they would most likely destroy the league simply because they are smaller and slower.

Hgh.

You're absolutely insane if you think training and food are the reason we have 6'7 340 tackles.

Anyway brady is a bit of a pris and yeah that is not in his favor.

The players athletic qualities are the main reason i put joe in the same league as staubach rogers and keep brady out. But brady is blowing away everyone with regard to durability.

No taking that away.

Watching super bowl replays this morning on NFL Network. Reminded that in Montanas era there was almost no protection of QB's. WR's getting absolutely mauled with no flags. How can anyone try to compare apples to apples with Brady vs Montana?

Originally posted by WashDCNinerFan:
Watching super bowl replays this morning on NFL Network. Reminded that in Montanas era there was almost no protection of QB's. WR's getting absolutely mauled with no flags. How can anyone try to compare apples to apples with Brady vs Montana?

Not only do the receivers get mugged and the QBs are treated like any other ball carrier the O-line could not use their hands and arms like they do now. Believe it or not if you turn the clock back to 1976 a little before Montana's time things were even worse for QBs and the passing game. A blocker could not extend his hands at all, they were flagged for 10 yards if they did, all the while defenders were allowed to hit them in the head. With the tight rules on blocking including not extending the arms or any grabbing there were no gray areas, infractions stood out like sore thumbs. Clotheslining was also legal, a lot of guys swung at the QBs heads like they were trying to decapitate them. The QBs after the game were as dirty and bloody as the middle linebackers were. You explain all this over and over and you still have fans questioning how guys like Bart Starr got in the Hall of Fame saying old school QBs really sucked. The one good thing about football 40 years ago was fans did not complain about officiating the way they do today. Unless you knocked a receiver down while the ball was in the air it wasn't pass interference, unless an offensive lineman has closed hands in tight to his jersey he gets flagged, etc,etc.

In regards to the doping, I will say it again. Everyone knows HGH is rampant in the NFL. They don't have a testing policy in place for it, and both the league and especially players union back away from the subject.

HGH is the biggest advancement indoping IMO. There are other things and maybe even something now we aren't aware of yet as laymen. We could be getting huge Tackles partly because of natural occurrences, but I'm sure the rampant HGH isn't hurting them. Didn't hurt Barry Bonds from doubling his body everywhere he wanted. Except his dome lol.

Um...its not natural selection. Obviously there are many pharmaceutical agent which are being used to enhance performance and minimize pain. Its very sophisticated and backed by a multi billion dollar business tacitly.

Anyway, weren't we talking about joe?

Miss that guy.

Originally posted by natediaz:

Originally posted by crake49:

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
why are we going through all this again? first of all Brady isn't even the best quarterback today. That goes to Aaron Rodgers. stop talking about stacked teams. New England has had plenty of stacked teams and Joe has won Super Bowls without Jerry Rice - 2 in fact.

only people who have actually seen Brady and Montana play should be allowed to post on this thread.

I don't know about not allowing people to post, but I saw ever single game of Montana's career and I have a few thoughts on this.

- it's simply not true that Montana played on what we would call 'stacked' offenses all the time. His receivers in the first two SB's were Dwight Clark and an older Freddie Solomon. I liked both those guys a lot, but anyone who thinks that was a better receiving duo than what Brady has had is just flat out wrong. Solomon was not very fast and Clark was slow. All of Montana's championship teams had great defense - that much is true.

- I don't agree that Brady would have thrived in Montana's era. QB's got just beat up back in those days and Brady hasn't really shown me the mindset of being able to withstand that kind of pressure and beating. For cryin out loud, Brady throws a tantrum if there's an off sides penalty. He's gotten the benefit of lots of protection from the refs that Montana never even dreamed of having. The Giants put Montana in the hospital during one playoff game.

- Yes, Brady gets rid of the ball, but he simply doesn't have the quickness to evade some of the pass rush that Montana dealt with. And Montana actually had a quicker release than Brady does.

- Montana never yelled at team mates, never screamed or glared at the sidelines, etc. He was just in a cooler space while playing the game. And none of Montana's wins were gifts.

Bottom line: I think Brady is one of the great QB's of the modern era, but I actually think it's ridiculous to argue that he's better than Montana. You simply cannot be better than perfect in Super Bowls. You can be as good, but not better. Brady is not perfect; he's great, but the train has already left the station on this. He's thrown interceptions in Super Bowls and he's been on the losing side a couple times... PERIOD!

this is the typical montana fan post which i have zero respect for. it's uninformed, full of hate, and not understanding the brady's greatness.

I've already let my opinion be known on Montana and what I feel about Brady, especially if he wins this next SB (greatest all time QB)... Montana being the best in SBs and would be my choice / GOAT if I had to choose one to play in SB in order to guarantee the best chance of winning, period.

But I have to question you a little here... "this is the typical montana fan post which i have zero respect for. it's uninformed, full of hate"

Your love for Brady is blindly / grotesquely imminent to the point that it seems you don't really have any "respect" for the accomplishments Joe made throughout his career. Perhaps, down deep inside, you are "full of hate" and "not understanding" Montana's greatness Please correct me if I'm wrong...

I have posts in here stating my respect for Brady and what I feel about him (being greatest of all time), therefore, you know I'm not totally biased or hating on the man. I appreciated him ever since he beat the Rams in his first SB and took care of Seattle in his last SB.

Now, please show me some of your posts that shows some appreciation of the Legendary 49er who is Joe Montana, please. Do you have any? I am not sure, but if you can point them out to me (which posts). I can point out mines and others (respect for Brady), can you point out yours. I'm just curious.

Or do you feel like I need to go back to every post before this one just to find out (that's kinda petty, and I wouldn't waste my time since it would prove my point)... are you really a fan of Joe Montana's and the 49ers or just a Brady fan Serious question / not being sarcastic...

Originally posted by LVJay:

I've already let my opinion be known on Montana and what I feel about Brady, especially if he wins this next SB (greatest all time QB)... Montana being the best in SBs and would be my choice / GOAT if I had to choose one to play in SB in order to guarantee the best chance of winning, period.

But I have to question you a little here... "this is the typical montana fan post which i have zero respect for. it's uninformed, full of hate"

Your love for Brady is blindly / grotesquely imminent to the point that it seems you don't really have any "respect" for the accomplishments Joe made throughout his career. Perhaps, down deep inside, you are "full of hate" and "not understanding" Montana's greatness Please correct me if I'm wrong...

I have posts in here stating my respect for Brady and what I feel about him (being greatest of all time), therefore, you know I'm not totally biased or hating on the man. I appreciated him ever since he beat the Rams in his first SB and took care of Seattle in his last SB.

Now, please show me some of your posts that shows some appreciation of the Legendary 49er who is Joe Montana, please. Do you have any? I am not sure, but if you can point them out to me (which posts). I can point out mines and others (respect for Brady), can you point out yours. I'm just curious.

Or do you feel like I need to go back to every post before this one just to find out (that's kinda petty, and I wouldn't waste my time since it would prove my point)... are you really a fan of Joe Montana's and the 49ers or just a Brady fan Serious question / not being sarcastic...

Your post seems so earnest I feel I have to tell you that you aren't likely to get an answer for at least a week.

Originally posted by LVJay:

Originally posted by natediaz:

Originally posted by crake49:

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
why are we going through all this again? first of all Brady isn't even the best quarterback today. That goes to Aaron Rodgers. stop talking about stacked teams. New England has had plenty of stacked teams and Joe has won Super Bowls without Jerry Rice - 2 in fact.

only people who have actually seen Brady and Montana play should be allowed to post on this thread.

I don't know about not allowing people to post, but I saw ever single game of Montana's career and I have a few thoughts on this.

- it's simply not true that Montana played on what we would call 'stacked' offenses all the time. His receivers in the first two SB's were Dwight Clark and an older Freddie Solomon. I liked both those guys a lot, but anyone who thinks that was a better receiving duo than what Brady has had is just flat out wrong. Solomon was not very fast and Clark was slow. All of Montana's championship teams had great defense - that much is true.

- I don't agree that Brady would have thrived in Montana's era. QB's got just beat up back in those days and Brady hasn't really shown me the mindset of being able to withstand that kind of pressure and beating. For cryin out loud, Brady throws a tantrum if there's an off sides penalty. He's gotten the benefit of lots of protection from the refs that Montana never even dreamed of having. The Giants put Montana in the hospital during one playoff game.

- Yes, Brady gets rid of the ball, but he simply doesn't have the quickness to evade some of the pass rush that Montana dealt with. And Montana actually had a quicker release than Brady does.

- Montana never yelled at team mates, never screamed or glared at the sidelines, etc. He was just in a cooler space while playing the game. And none of Montana's wins were gifts.

Bottom line: I think Brady is one of the great QB's of the modern era, but I actually think it's ridiculous to argue that he's better than Montana. You simply cannot be better than perfect in Super Bowls. You can be as good, but not better. Brady is not perfect; he's great, but the train has already left the station on this. He's thrown interceptions in Super Bowls and he's been on the losing side a couple times... PERIOD!

this is the typical montana fan post which i have zero respect for. it's uninformed, full of hate, and not understanding the brady's greatness.

I've already let my opinion be known on Montana and what I feel about Brady, especially if he wins this next SB (greatest all time QB)... Montana being the best in SBs and would be my choice / GOAT if I had to choose one to play in SB in order to guarantee the best chance of winning, period.

But I have to question you a little here... "this is the typical montana fan post which i have zero respect for. it's uninformed, full of hate"

Your love for Brady is blindly / grotesquely imminent to the point that it seems you don't really have any "respect" for the accomplishments Joe made throughout his career. Perhaps, down deep inside, you are "full of hate" and "not understanding" Montana's greatness Please correct me if I'm wrong...

I have posts in here stating my respect for Brady and what I feel about him (being greatest of all time), therefore, you know I'm not totally biased or hating on the man. I appreciated him ever since he beat the Rams in his first SB and took care of Seattle in his last SB.

Now, please show me some of your posts that shows some appreciation of the Legendary 49er who is Joe Montana, please. Do you have any? I am not sure, but if you can point them out to me (which posts). I can point out mines and others (respect for Brady), can you point out yours. I'm just curious.

Or do you feel like I need to go back to every post before this one just to find out (that's kinda petty, and I wouldn't waste my time since it would prove my point)... are you really a fan of Joe Montana's and the 49ers or just a Brady fan Serious question / not being sarcastic...

He is not a 49ers fan or really a Montana fan. He has said he is a Seahawks fan. Having read most of his posts he has been complimentary for the most part of Joe but just doesnt believe he is the GOAT like he believes Brady is. There is certainly nothing wrong with this opinion and one, I believe, that most football fans would share.

I have to say that there are a couple of 49ers fans in here that have said more head scratching things than Nate IMO. As for me,I think there are valid points to be made for either guy as GOAT and neither are slam dunk choices. SBs? Yes Joe is the best but for overall peformance in all games its hard to not say that Brady is at least on a par with Montana.