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Joe Montana Legacy Secured

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Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
I dont argue resume i argue skills assessment. Joe has a broader palette of physical tools than tom plus the joy of the game to bring his little bag of playground trick to the nfl. Brady is a little too intense to use the schoolyard.

I think its pretty obvious if you look at the players actually play. Maybe if brady didnt blow out his knee marry a supermodel and make a gizillion dollars it would be different. But it did.


Finally theres no denying that there has been an exogenous macro change in the rules that simply favors passing performance. Theyve had a huge impact statistically and there no denying that. Were pretty much back to early 60s afl wild wild west football. And joe did not have the statistical benefit of playing in this environment. Still hung 38 and 44 in super bowls. No come back needed there.


Any it turns out that i think joe probably ISNT the goat. Probably that honor goes to johnny u or baugh from what i hear. In the modern era theres only three that are in their own category roger aaron joe.

Im not going to say who is best among them but youll notice bradys name is not there.

But anothet couple years....

Most talented doesnt' mean the best.

Do you think Randy Moss is a better receiver than Jerry Rice?
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by McClusky:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Stats never communicate context. The mic hasn't been dropped. Eras can't be compared IMHO. He's the difference between then and now.... the competition was so high that one mistake kills the game. I know people who've only seen this era are used to seeing NFC Champ games or even Super Bowls with interception(s) - plural. The competition was different. Montana usually beat other HOF QBs or beat, dominated some of the best defenses in the league. With Dwight Clark - years before Rice and Taylor.

I'm not really sure how this is different. Brady has spent his career going up against Manning and Roethlisburger, and won a SB against a HOF MVP QB. He went up against the Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Terrelle Suggs, and Ngata led Baltimore defenses, and beat a Seattle defense that has 3+ future HOF players in the SB.

Joe spent his career going against Marino, Elway, Sims, Theisman and the John Riggens led Redskins, Plunkett, Moon, etc. and then later Kelly.played in an era against the best defense of all time - 1985 Bears. Ray Lews meet Mike Singletary as a player in his prime. Terrelle Suggs, meet Lawrence Taylor and Ngata meet Richard Dent or Dan Hampton or Steve McMichael or Leonard Marshall.... (this is a longer list).

And jumping back to rules .... if "roughing the passer" and "passive interference" or "illegal contact" would have been enforced the way it is today. MUCH longer career for Montana than he had.

Come on man this is a ridiculous argument. Brady has faced every bit as tough of a slate of QB's as Montana did. Is Manning that different from Marino? How about Wilson vs. Simms? Warner vs. Kelly? Ryan vs. Theisman? McNair vs. Plunkett? Roethlisburger vs. Elway? There are a lot of future HOF's in that group, there just hasn't been 30 years to build an unnatural mystique around them.

With regards to the things like Defense, I could go through and use things like DVOA, to make a point, but it's simpler to just use your example the 1985 Bears. Montana and the 49ers had 183 yards of offense and scored 10 points against them. Using era adjusted stats, there is little to suggest that Montana's prime coincided with a flurry of great defensive teams.
Originally posted by genus49:
Most talented doesnt' mean the best.

Do you think Randy Moss is a better receiver than Jerry Rice?

Excellent counter argument.

Temperament is a part of talent, mental skills. So jerry gets an edge there. Also, dont forget craft. Jerry was the more accomplished reciever. He worked his job. If randy was as hardworking as jerry there would be no discussion.

But he wasnt.

Dont forget toughness. Jerry was tough as nails in his prime.
Mcclusky what skills do you think make brady exceptional.

Dont quote resume and stats?
Originally posted by English:
Originally posted by PatrickWillisHOF:
Brady was down 10 points in the 4th quarter against the dominant Seahawks defense. He came back to beat them.
This game he was down by 25 points midway through the 3rd quarter. On the last drive in the 4th quarter, he drove 91 yards down the field. Greatest comeback in super bowl history.

He owns all the playoff passing records. Been to 3 more Super Bowls than Montana. 3 more!!!! Has 5 rings.

Not to mention, this wasn't just one good run with the same team. He has done this with an ever changing roster.

Cmon' guys....... Just admit it. Brady is the best ever. Montana is second.

Dont agree. It is a matter of opinion and you are going to have to allow people to have theirs.

By the way, I dont see anything that amazing about reaming a gassed Atlanta D.
Yeah everyone can have their own opinion... I was shocked when after the win everyone was calling Brady the GOAT. Midway through the 3rd, the Pats were getting routed by ATlanta???? Great offense but everyone thought Brady would carve up this D quite easily. The only reason for the comeback (IMO) was the Pats D, Atlanta going soft and Atlanta playing a cushy zone. Brady just kept dumping it underneath to the rb's. Either way, if they lost that game, people wouldn't call him the GOAT. Why does a win propel it? I really don't want to take anything away from the PATS or Brady. Their great! And they will be back next year. But they needed overtime to beat a team and a defense that they should have destroyed.

I just view that game as an epic collapse from Atlanta instead of a comeback from the Pats. If Atlanta was playing Pittsburgh and they started giving a cushy zone to Big Ben, i think they would just dump it off to Bell underneath and we would be talking about their epic comeback and how they have 7 rings now so they are the GOAT franchise...

I don't know, I normally hate knee-jerk reactions from one game. PATS are great. Brady is great. Just don't know if he is the GOAT yet.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Mcclusky what skills do you think make brady exceptional.

Dont quote resume and stats?

I'll jump in on this and say his awareness and preparation.

Michael Strahan touched on it with his story of Tom not having a drink at a party in May cause he said he was in training. lol
Billy B talked about how Tom is so hard to coach because he brings up plays from 2 years ago a team ran once and said we better be ready for it.

Brady took over his 2nd year in the league and with the exception of the knee injury season has dominated at QB for 15 years. Baring injury he'll prob play 20. Pretty remarkable.
Fair enough. Could you elaborate on what you mean by awareness?
Originally posted by jacklegniner:
Either way, if they lost that game, people wouldn't call him the GOAT. Why does a win propel it? I really don't want to take anything away from the PATS or Brady. Their great! And they will be back next year. But they needed overtime to beat a team and a defense that they should have destroyed.
What a ridiculous argument. That's like saying, "if Joe Montana didn't complete The Catch, no one would say he's in the running for the GOAT." Or, "if Joe Montana failed to engineer The Drive, no one would say he's in the running for the GOAT." (Speaking of The Drive, the 49ers got the ball back on the 8-yard line with 3:10 left in the Super Bowl, and Montana engineered an 11-play, 92-yard drive. That sounds kind of familiar... the Patriots got the ball back on the 9-yard line with 3:30 left in the Super Bowl, and Brady engineered a 10-play, 91-year drive.)

If Joe Montana airmailed Dwight Clark and the 49ers didn't go on to win the Super Bowl, would he be in discussion for the GOAT? If Joe Montana threw a pick 6 during "The Drive" would he be considered the GOAT? Why are we even talking about hypothetical losses/failures? That exact same argument applies to Joe and the 49ers. More cognitive dissonance.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Mcclusky what skills do you think make brady exceptional.

Dont quote resume and stats?

Brady mental game is unrivaled by anyone ever besides Manning. The Patriots modified Erdhart-Perkins offense is extraordinarily complicated, even moreso that Walsh's West Coast offense. Brady has unlimited autonomy to audible. His arm is stronger than Montana's. He gets the ball out of his hand quicker than anyone and only Manning and Marino really rivals him there either. Really the only thing Montana has tangibly on Brady is mobility, the rest is arguable.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Fair enough. Could you elaborate on what you mean by awareness?

Little things he does during a game that tip off exactly what the defense is going to do. Film study and being super smart. He knew exactly what the Falcons were running in the second half and took advantage of it. They tried running zone coverage and he exploited it. Then they switched to man and he burned them. Moving his receivers around, having them go in motion. Calling out blocking assignments at the line. He made a few mistakes in the first half. Then just took over the game.
Originally posted by theduke85:
Originally posted by jacklegniner:
Either way, if they lost that game, people wouldn't call him the GOAT. Why does a win propel it? I really don't want to take anything away from the PATS or Brady. Their great! And they will be back next year. But they needed overtime to beat a team and a defense that they should have destroyed.
What a ridiculous argument. That's like saying, "if Joe Montana didn't complete The Catch, no one would say he's in the running for the GOAT." Or, "if Joe Montana failed to engineer The Drive, no one would say he's in the running for the GOAT." (Speaking of The Drive, the 49ers got the ball back on the 8-yard line with 3:10 left in the Super Bowl, and Montana engineered an 11-play, 92-yard drive. That sounds kind of familiar... the Patriots got the ball back on the 9-yard line with 3:30 left in the Super Bowl, and Brady engineered a 10-play, 91-year drive.)

If Joe Montana airmailed Dwight Clark and the 49ers didn't go on to win the Super Bowl, would he be in discussion for the GOAT? If Joe Montana threw a pick 6 during "The Drive" would he be considered the GOAT? Why are we even talking about hypothetical losses/failures? That exact same argument applies to Joe and the 49ers. More cognitive dissonance.

If the sperm of Brady's dad veered left instead of right, Brady may not have been considered the GOAT.

BTW, I think Brady winning #5 creates a new argument. Who's the real GOAT, Tom Brady or Jerry Rice?
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by theduke85:
Originally posted by jacklegniner:
Either way, if they lost that game, people wouldn't call him the GOAT. Why does a win propel it? I really don't want to take anything away from the PATS or Brady. Their great! And they will be back next year. But they needed overtime to beat a team and a defense that they should have destroyed.
What a ridiculous argument. That's like saying, "if Joe Montana didn't complete The Catch, no one would say he's in the running for the GOAT." Or, "if Joe Montana failed to engineer The Drive, no one would say he's in the running for the GOAT." (Speaking of The Drive, the 49ers got the ball back on the 8-yard line with 3:10 left in the Super Bowl, and Montana engineered an 11-play, 92-yard drive. That sounds kind of familiar... the Patriots got the ball back on the 9-yard line with 3:30 left in the Super Bowl, and Brady engineered a 10-play, 91-year drive.)

If Joe Montana airmailed Dwight Clark and the 49ers didn't go on to win the Super Bowl, would he be in discussion for the GOAT? If Joe Montana threw a pick 6 during "The Drive" would he be considered the GOAT? Why are we even talking about hypothetical losses/failures? That exact same argument applies to Joe and the 49ers. More cognitive dissonance.

If the sperm of Brady's dad veered left instead of right, Brady may not have been considered the GOAT.

BTW, I think Brady winning #5 creates a new argument. Who's the real GOAT, Tom Brady or Jerry Rice?

I'll let you know when Tom is done playing.

Might add another super bowl? lol
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Excellent counter argument.

Temperament is a part of talent, mental skills. So jerry gets an edge there. Also, dont forget craft. Jerry was the more accomplished reciever. He worked his job. If randy was as hardworking as jerry there would be no discussion.

But he wasnt.

Dont forget toughness. Jerry was tough as nails in his prime.

You're really not seeing the Brady analogy there?

Brady = less talented but works harder, trains harder and does more with his head than those other guys who may be more talented, have bigger arms, run faster.

Honestly the run Brady had in the SB I'm not sure he makes 10 years ago. The guy is playing some of his best football at 39 years old.

Who has done that?
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Excellent counter argument.

Temperament is a part of talent, mental skills. So jerry gets an edge there. Also, dont forget craft. Jerry was the more accomplished reciever. He worked his job. If randy was as hardworking as jerry there would be no discussion.

But he wasnt.

Dont forget toughness. Jerry was tough as nails in his prime.

You're really not seeing the Brady analogy there?

Brady = less talented but works harder, trains harder and does more with his head than those other guys who may be more talented, have bigger arms, run faster.

Honestly the run Brady had in the SB I'm not sure he makes 10 years ago. The guy is playing some of his best football at 39 years old.

Who has done that?

Montana stopped playing at 38.
Johnny Us last full season he was 37. Played until he was 40 but only avg 5 games a season his last 3 years.
Bradshaw was 35.
Elway 38.
Manning 39.
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Originally posted by SoCold:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Excellent counter argument.

Temperament is a part of talent, mental skills. So jerry gets an edge there. Also, dont forget craft. Jerry was the more accomplished reciever. He worked his job. If randy was as hardworking as jerry there would be no discussion.

But he wasnt.

Dont forget toughness. Jerry was tough as nails in his prime.

You're really not seeing the Brady analogy there?

Brady = less talented but works harder, trains harder and does more with his head than those other guys who may be more talented, have bigger arms, run faster.

Honestly the run Brady had in the SB I'm not sure he makes 10 years ago. The guy is playing some of his best football at 39 years old.

Who has done that?

Montana stopped playing at 38.
Johnny Us last full season he was 37. Played until he was 40 but only avg 5 games a season his last 3 years.
Bradshaw was 35.
Elway 38.
Manning 39.
Of those only Montana and Elway played good till the end. Manning's last year was horrible, Johnny U played 5 years too long, Bradshaw's last two were bad. As far as longevity Brady blows them all away.
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