Joe Montana Legacy Secured

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by Niners99:
I have never once heard that. Where are these "reports"?

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-11-14/sports/sp-2416_1_joe-montana
http://articles.dailypress.com/1990-01-26/sports/9001260010_1_drug-tests-nfl-s-drug-testing-program
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/05/report-fbi-was-snooping-around-joe-montana/
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/01/26/sports/nfl-s-drug-testing-program-called-inconsistent-and-unfair.html

There isnt a shred of proof in any of those articles. Just accusations. No actual reported test results, no fines, nothing. That could easily be media speculation to create controversy surrounding the best QB of the time.

Im not saying Montana never did coke. Id be surprised at what pro athlete DIDNT do it in the 80's at least once, but to suggest he was a addicted fiend is pretty outlandish.

pretty much. most of the players did something back then, just like pretty much every player is on HGH now. it's still an even playing field.

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
When did I say that Joe didnt have exceptional touch, accuracy and mental discipline. Of course he did. You know what.. so does Tom Brady. The only real skill set that Joe had a significant edge was his ability to run and in my opinion Brady has the stronger arm.

I am not taking anything away from Joe or suggesting that he wasnt amazing. I just would argue that Brady has accomplished more and is the GOAT. I do think most people around the country believe that to be the case now even those old enough to have seen both play.

We're agreed on the mobility and arm strength. I recall Joe making many perfectt catchable throws in the normal course of business. I see brady more concerned with reducing the time in flight, and the receivers need to be on point where they are, and how they secure the football. Joe's passes -- especially the long ball, usually lket receivers settle into them how they felt was best given the indiviidual defending situation. Tom doesn't have to be concerned with that so much nowadays, because receivers go pretty much where they want to go because they can't be the slightest bit interfered with.

So, I've always appreciated Joe's creativity and touch there. Although, as stated earlier, the unquestioned master of ball delivery was Marino. Joe was not at that level, but he was much better than pretty much all his peers. i don't see that variety in the NE passing game, probably because it is not required given the defensive reality.

As far as the achievement goes, sure, Brady has piled up a lot of stats and championship rings. More than anyone, including Joe. So if that's you're measure, then he is the GOAT. I appreciate the accomplishments, but as I said, I think the playing qualities of the two are different and I favor the type of skillset Joe has.

There's only a few QB's who could actually temper their mobility to be highly effective pocket passers, and Joe was one. I appreciate that a lot and so I definitely elevate Joe.

if I had to take Tom or Joe as rookies in this league right now, I would go with Joe. That's just me.

Originally posted by jcs:
This is future HOFer Ray Lewis on Tom Brady...

"When we played in childhood, the game plan was simply 'go get open'. That's what Tom tells his receivers — go get open. He's playing you outside leverage — go inside. He's playing you inside leverage — go outside.

"When we played them [as a member of the Ravens], I used to always say to [teammates] 'this is schoolyard football'. Beat your man, dammit. If you have a problem beating your man, that's when Tom's coming."

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/ray-lewis-explains-what-makes-tom-brady-the-greatest-quarterback-of-all-time-013117

Nice quote. How did they play together as kids?

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

When did I say that Joe didnt have exceptional touch, accuracy and mental discipline. Of course he did. You know what.. so does Tom Brady. The only real skill set that Joe had a significant edge was his ability to run and in my opinion Brady has the stronger arm.

I am not taking anything away from Joe or suggesting that he wasnt amazing. I just would argue that Brady has accomplished more and is the GOAT. I do think most people around the country believe that to be the case now even those old enough to have seen both play.

We're agreed on the mobility and arm strength. I recall Joe making many perfectt catchable throws in the normal course of business. I see brady more concerned with reducing the time in flight, and the receivers need to be on point where they are, and how they secure the football. Joe's passes -- especially the long ball, usually lket receivers settle into them how they felt was best given the indiviidual defending situation. Tom doesn't have to be concerned with that so much nowadays, because receivers go pretty much where they want to go because they can't be the slightest bit interfered with.

So, I've always appreciated Joe's creativity and touch there. Although, as stated earlier, the unquestioned master of ball delivery was Marino. Joe was not at that level, but he was much better than pretty much all his peers. i don't see that variety in the NE passing game, probably because it is not required given the defensive reality.

As far as the achievement goes, sure, Brady has piled up a lot of stats and championship rings. More than anyone, including Joe. So if that's you're measure, then he is the GOAT. I appreciate the accomplishments, but as I said, I think the playing qualities of the two are different and I favor the type of skillset Joe has.

There's only a few QB's who could actually temper their mobility to be highly effective pocket passers, and Joe was one. I appreciate that a lot and so I definitely elevate Joe.

if I had to take Tom or Joe as rookies in this league right now, I would go with Joe. That's just me.

With out a doubt. If Joe got to play under the wimpy rules of now. He would absolutely kill. No one will ever change my mind of that.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Nice quote. How did they play together as kids?

I think you should read that again.

Super Bowl Marks:

Keep in mind, Tom had 7 chances to up the numbers, in today's flag football league, Joe did this in just 4 games, and in a much tougher league. Joe winner all day long.

Championships — Tom Brady: 5 | Joe Montana: 4

Most Valuable Player Awards — Tom Brady: 4 | Joe Montana: 3

Record — Tom Brady: 5-2 | Joe Montana: 4-0

Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 15 | Joe Montana: 11

Interceptions — Tom Brady: 5 | Joe Montana: 0 PERFECT

Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 67.0 | Joe Montana: 68.0

Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 2,071 | Joe Montana: 1,142

Completions — Tom Brady: 207 | Joe Montana: 83

Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 95.3 | Joe Montana: 127.8 WOOT!

Margin of Victory in Super Bowl Wins — Tom Brady: +19 | Joe Montana: +76 WOOT!



Career Postseason Marks:

Record — Tom Brady: 25-9 | Joe Montana: 16-7

Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 63 | Joe Montana: 45

Interceptions — Tom Brady: 31 | Joe Montana: 21

Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 62.7 | Joe Montana: 62.7

Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 9,094 | Joe Montana: 5,772

Completions — Tom Brady: 831 | Joe Montana: 460

Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 89.0 | Joe Montana: 95.6

Game-Winning Drives — Tom Brady: 10 | Joe Montana: 5 Game winning drives mean nothing. If you're not behind, you don't have a game winning drive.



Career Regular Season Marks:

Record — Tom Brady: 183-52 | Joe Montana: 117-47

Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 456 | Joe Montana: 273

Interceptions — Tom Brady: 152 | Joe Montana: 139

Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 63.8 | Joe Montana: 63.2

Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 61,582 | Joe Montana: 40,551

Completions — Tom Brady: 5,244 | Joe Montana: 3,409

Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 97.2 | Joe Montana: 92.3

Game-Winning Drives — Tom Brady: 48 | Joe Montana: 33

Brady is the best QB ever. Just have to accept it and hopefully the 49ers eventually get a QB that can challenge him.

There is no conversation any more. Brady won.

We still had the best WR so we still have that.

Originally posted by JimA49ers:
Super Bowl Marks:

Keep in mind, Tom had 7 chances to up the numbers, in today's flag football league, Joe did this in just 4 games, and in a much tougher league. Joe winner all day long.

Championships — Tom Brady: 5 | Joe Montana: 4

Most Valuable Player Awards — Tom Brady: 4 | Joe Montana: 3

Record — Tom Brady: 5-2 | Joe Montana: 4-0

Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 15 | Joe Montana: 11

Interceptions — Tom Brady: 5 | Joe Montana: 0 PERFECT

Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 67.0 | Joe Montana: 68.0

Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 2,071 | Joe Montana: 1,142

Completions — Tom Brady: 207 | Joe Montana: 83

Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 95.3 | Joe Montana: 127.8 WOOT!

Margin of Victory in Super Bowl Wins — Tom Brady: +19 | Joe Montana: +76 WOOT!



Career Postseason Marks:

Record — Tom Brady: 25-9 | Joe Montana: 16-7

Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 63 | Joe Montana: 45

Interceptions — Tom Brady: 31 | Joe Montana: 21

Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 62.7 | Joe Montana: 62.7

Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 9,094 | Joe Montana: 5,772

Completions — Tom Brady: 831 | Joe Montana: 460

Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 89.0 | Joe Montana: 95.6

Game-Winning Drives — Tom Brady: 10 | Joe Montana: 5 Game winning drives mean nothing. If you're not behind, you don't have a game winning drive.



Career Regular Season Marks:

Record — Tom Brady: 183-52 | Joe Montana: 117-47

Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 456 | Joe Montana: 273

Interceptions — Tom Brady: 152 | Joe Montana: 139

Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 63.8 | Joe Montana: 63.2

Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 61,582 | Joe Montana: 40,551

Completions — Tom Brady: 5,244 | Joe Montana: 3,409

Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 97.2 | Joe Montana: 92.3

Game-Winning Drives — Tom Brady: 48 | Joe Montana: 33

The Goat is more than just post season...compare the regular season numbers too...

Originally posted by smithgdwg:
We still had the best WR so we still have that.

No one is going to touch Rice...his numbers are ridiculous...

Originally posted by smithgdwg:
Brady is the best QB ever. Just have to accept it and hopefully the 49ers eventually get a QB that can challenge him.

There is no conversation any more. Brady won.

Well, everyone has their own opinion.

You don't mind if we disagree, do you?

Originally posted by JimA49ers:
Super Bowl Marks:

Keep in mind, Tom had 7 chances to up the numbers, in today's flag football league, Joe did this in just 4 games, and in a much tougher league. Joe winner all day long.

Championships — Tom Brady: 5 | Joe Montana: 4

Most Valuable Player Awards — Tom Brady: 4 | Joe Montana: 3

Record — Tom Brady: 5-2 | Joe Montana: 4-0

Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 15 | Joe Montana: 11

Interceptions — Tom Brady: 5 | Joe Montana: 0 PERFECT

Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 67.0 | Joe Montana: 68.0

Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 2,071 | Joe Montana: 1,142

Completions — Tom Brady: 207 | Joe Montana: 83

Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 95.3 | Joe Montana: 127.8 WOOT!

Margin of Victory in Super Bowl Wins — Tom Brady: +19 | Joe Montana: +76 WOOT!



Career Postseason Marks:

Record — Tom Brady: 25-9 | Joe Montana: 16-7

Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 63 | Joe Montana: 45

Interceptions — Tom Brady: 31 | Joe Montana: 21

Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 62.7 | Joe Montana: 62.7

Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 9,094 | Joe Montana: 5,772

Completions — Tom Brady: 831 | Joe Montana: 460

Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 89.0 | Joe Montana: 95.6

Game-Winning Drives — Tom Brady: 10 | Joe Montana: 5 Game winning drives mean nothing. If you're not behind, you don't have a game winning drive.



Career Regular Season Marks:

Record — Tom Brady: 183-52 | Joe Montana: 117-47

Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 456 | Joe Montana: 273

Interceptions — Tom Brady: 152 | Joe Montana: 139

Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 63.8 | Joe Montana: 63.2

Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 61,582 | Joe Montana: 40,551

Completions — Tom Brady: 5,244 | Joe Montana: 3,409

Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 97.2 | Joe Montana: 92.3

Game-Winning Drives — Tom Brady: 48 | Joe Montana: 33

niners were so much better than the competition in the 80's because no salary cap. pats can't beat up a SB team 55-10. that's not gonna happen because the way they construct their team. falcons were more talented. it was visible that falcons were faster and younger team of the two. pats can't out talent teams.

montana was great, but brady has done more and longer. longevity is critical in all GOAT debates. montana was crowned as the GOAT. now it's brady who's been crowned. i just hope you guys accept this reality.

Originally posted by natediaz:
niners were so much better than the competition in the 80's because no salary cap. pats can't beat up a SB team 55-10. that's not gonna happen because the way they construct their team. falcons were more talented. it was visible that falcons were faster and younger team of the two. pats can't out talent teams.

montana was great, but brady has done more and longer. longevity is critical in all GOAT debates. montana was crowned as the GOAT. now it's brady who's been crowned. i just hope you guys accept this reality.

Hope you don't mind if we disagree. There's a lot of words on it, so no point in going over it all again.

The longevity piece is getting to be more important because ....of Brady. No one has gone this long and been prductive. So he is changing the parameters of the debate. Give him credit for that no doubt.

And, um, do you happen to recall where the broncos ranked in defense the year joe laid 55 points on them? I'm having trouble remembering

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by McClusky:

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Didnt do that great against ravens. Beat seattle with a large assist from epic chump pete carroll. You could suggest a similar situation with matt ryan. The guy snuggles to epic failure like a security blanket.


Its all secondary. Its about the player. You review the plays one by one year after year and the pattern emerges. One is elite one is hyper elite. Thats all.

But the durability piece is a wild card. If brady still performs a couple more years then you have to weigh it very heavily.

Its already the reason we are even having this discussion.

He also dropped 41 on the number 1 ranked defense in 2004. Arguing resume against Tom Brady will never be a winning argument. The man has almost everything Montana has plus 3 or 4 more examples of success.

With regards to the bolded, you can make an argument, but the vast majority of the world outside of this board would argue the inverse for Brady and Montana.

Last time I checked we weren't outside the board. In terms of sheer numbers the bulk of the "vast majority" of which you speak have been watching the game for a maximum of 10 years. So obviously Brady is the guy against whom they measure. A fair chunk of this majority up to recently were saying that Wilson was the greatest.

This is a 49ers supporters board. I don't understand why several of you are finding it so difficult to understand the love and respect for Joe Montana. You aren't going to change anybody's mind and I can't even be bothered to try any more. It's a pointless argument so let's move on.

Of course there is love for Joe. Some of us actually saw every game he played and think of him as our favorite player. However, that does not mean that we cant also see the greatness of Tom Brady and understand that his accomplishments over an entire career has put him #1 on the all time QB list. When he retires he will have the most regular season wins, most championships, most SB MVPs, and just about every record there is.

I understand the argument from those who say Joe had more ability. I would agree that he had more mobilty but that is about it. Brady has the stronger arm and to me the accuracy, awareness, and ability to compete is on a par. I just dont think there is some huge advantage in skill set that many try to suggest. They both had the advantage of playing in great systems under HOF head coaches that did give them an edge over other QBs.

The one argument that is really dumb is that Brady would not have survived in Joe's era. Brady is bigger and stronger than Joe and has survived many hits in his career with amazing durability. QBs were able to play without getting hurt in Joes time. Go look at Marino, Elway, and Favre's stats if you dont think so. Brady could have played then just like Joe could have played now.

Finally, if people want to continue to debate this why should they have to move on. No one is asking you to be bothered to try to convince anyone.

This, I'm not really interested in arguing Brady over Montana. I'm arguing against bad arguments. I understand that this is a 49ers board, but that doesn't mean that poor arguments need go unchallenged. If you want to argue Montana over Brady there are plenty of good ways to do it, argue playstyle preference, argue the challenges to comparing eras, argue playoff statistical performance, argue concentrated success over a shorter period of time (ie. higher overall level of play, shorter duration). I'm not here to argue that Brady is the best, I think very good arguments can be made for Montana (or Rodgers for that matter).

However, don't try and caveat every ounce of one guy's resume, while giving the benefit of the doubt to the other guy in every instance. For example, why exactly does the hypothetical violence of the other era go against Brady's ability to stay healthy? He's healthier than almost everyone from his present era, and played 8 years before QB rules went into effect suffering one injury. What is there to indicate that injuries would have been a major factor in his career trajectory rather than it being an argument of convenience?

A week ago the arguments in here were that Brady has never led a GW TD drive in the clutch, now that he has it's a whole slew of other arguments. Consistent means for arguments and consistent application is what I look for. If robust conversations are going to happen on 49ers topics, they're not going to happen if people build huge house of cards arguments, or if they try to tell you that something that is red is blue. English seems pretty deeply invested in people never mentioning the bias that is present on this board. Not every pro-49ers argument has merit just by the nature of being pro-49ers.

Originally posted by McClusky:
This, I'm not really interested in arguing Brady over Montana. I'm arguing against bad arguments. I understand that this is a 49ers board, but that doesn't mean that poor arguments need go unchallenged. If you want to argue Montana over Brady there are plenty of good ways to do it, argue playstyle preference, argue the challenges to comparing eras, argue playoff statistical performance, argue concentrated success over a shorter period of time (ie. higher overall level of play, shorter duration). I'm not here to argue that Brady is the best, I think very good arguments can be made for Montana (or Rodgers for that matter).

However, don't try and caveat every ounce of one guy's resume, while giving the benefit of the doubt to the other guy in every instance. For example, why exactly does the hypothetical violence of the other era go against Brady's ability to stay healthy? He's healthier than almost everyone from his present era, and played 8 years before QB rules went into effect suffering one injury. What is there to indicate that injuries would have been a major factor in his career trajectory rather than it being an argument of convenience?

A week ago the arguments in here were that Brady has never led a GW TD drive in the clutch, now that he has it's a whole slew of other arguments. Consistent means for arguments and consistent application is what I look for. If robust conversations are going to happen on 49ers topics, they're not going to happen if people build huge house of cards arguments, or if they try to tell you that something that is red is blue. English seems pretty deeply invested in people never mentioning the implicit bias that is present on this board. Not every pro-49ers argument has merit just by the nature of being pro-49ers.

Agreed, bad arguments shouldn't be considered and bandied about.

What about the good ones, for example athletic qualities?

How do you feel about those?

Also, the qb protections got npoticably more pronounced as qb salaries skyrocketed. One hit can wipe out a 100M investment and years and years of training.

I see that as a gradual process starting in joes era and continuing today with greate and greater benefit to the qb.,

In the mid 80's, teams head hunted qbs as a game altering strategy. Expolicitely and with no apology. Brady simply has not played in that environment for the last decade, perhaps longer. Don't you agree?

So I think there is some merit to that discussion, as it impacts Brady's endurance.