Minnesota Vikings, week 1 coaches film analysis

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
I saw this play too, what it is, is a variation on a cover-3 "cloud". The cover-3 "cloud" is where you keep either the multiple receiver side, or field side-depending on how they call it, corner on an underneath coverage. It looks like, instead of flat responsibility, he's taking a curl responsibility. This would take away any "flood" concepts to that side.

So the 3 deep defenders are Reid, Bethea, Acker. Why is Brock leaving his underneath zone responsibility? The #2 (orange) is open because of this.

One thing I noticed - and it may speak to some of the other coverages looking funky, is that, with Mangini, it seems our curl/hook defenders are more apt to run with the receivers through their zone - some teams play it that way. That way, instead of playing a "man in zone", like Fangio did, our curl/hook guys are running with those receivers. Makes sense based off how many concepts were based from running off the deep coverage and then bringing another receiver through through one zone into the now vacated zone - often times past the hook/curl zone.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

I saw this play too, what it is, is a variation on a cover-3 "cloud". The cover-3 "cloud" is where you keep either the multiple receiver side, or field side-depending on how they call it, corner on an underneath coverage. It looks like, instead of flat responsibility, he's taking a curl responsibility. This would take away any "flood" concepts to that side.

So the 3 deep defenders are Reid, Bethea, Acker. Why is Brock leaving his underneath zone responsibility? The #2 (orange) is open because of this.

One thing I noticed - and it may speak to some of the other coverages looking funky, is that, with Mangini, it seems our curl/hook defenders are more apt to run with the receivers through their zone - some teams play it that way. That way, instead of playing a "man in zone", like Fangio did, our curl/hook guys are running with those receivers. Makes sense based off how many concepts were based from running off the deep coverage and then bringing another receiver through through one zone into the now vacated zone - often times past the hook/curl zone.

These are some great conversations/insights!

Great breakdowns as always guys, keep up the great work!

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Here's another missed opportunity on that first drive - this is NOT an indictment on Kap, more the O-line. If they give him enough time on this play, he hits Boldin for what's most likely a walk-in TD. This is the last offensive play of the first drive.



The Vikings show a heavy pressure look by "sugaring" the "A" gaps. They show more than they bring though, they only rush with 5 and we keep a TE in to block, so we should be able to block this 6vs5. We're just going to run a simple man beating short "snag" route with a wheel route coming off that. The primary here is Reggie Bush coming out of the backfield as that puts a LB on him having to work through the "snag" rub route. Good playcall, but the corner and the pressure make this play.


You see how boldin's "snag" route walls off the LB and how difficult it makes it for him to cover Bush out of the backfield. The corner reads this though and starts to slide over to help early.


Kap is in mid-windup, but the corner started sliding over before he went into his throwing motion. I've highlighted how far back the center of the pocket was pushed, Staley - officially gets the "pressure given up" on this play, but, really, it's the interior that is to blame. Tackles are taught, on a speed rush, to drive the defender past the QB, not stonewall them, use their speed against them and drive them upfield so the QB can step up into the pocket. However, since the pocket has been pushed back, Kap can't step up to what will be a wide open Boldin on the play.


You see how Boldin ended up wide open - now again, I know the defense is reacting to the throw, but, at the same point, they would've still been in this position as the corner on Boldin left his man to cover Bush, pre-throw.


The pass falls incomplete and you can even see Boldin throw his arms up like, "dang man, I was open".

Absolutely love these breakdowns - so don't take this as criticism. But there are a lot of guys that look open or even "wide open" in film analysis BECAUSE the defense is reacting to the QB throwing commitment and leaving their man before the ball appears to come out. Kap is learning - and don't expect this right now - but the wise old QBs - Manning, Brees, Brady - are masters at not just moving guys with their eyes, but with their shoulders and a little pump twitch.

For a QB there is "looking the defender off" in a big way - moving the safety by looking left first, and then turning and throwing right. But at the high level of QB play, there is moving defenders even on the side of the field the are looking with those smaller eye and shoulder movements.

In the excellent example above, when I watch the broadcast film, I can see that the defenders abandon Boldin because CK is committing to Bush even before he throws, and he never looks back to Boldin. IF and as CK improves, he'll make that same look become a throw to a wide open Boldin.

Thanks again for all your hard work on this film breakdown - I know its time consuming.

Originally posted by vrabbit:
on this play I thought Teddy made a good choice on the throw just executed poorly, by NFL definitions Wright comes open and I'd think a better QB like Rodgers hits the target

Originally posted by vrabbit:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Here's a play we got real lucky on. It's the Vikings 3rd offensive lay of the game 3rd and 10. 9:-- 1st QTR.



Here, Minn goes with 3 wide, so we bring in our 'nickel' package with Tartt. Here, there just going to create a hi/lo stretch on the outside. Tartt is trying to to feign a blitz.



Tartt's feign brings him right to the line at the snap. We're playing a cover 2-man on this play, Tartt's responsibility then, is the TE.


Tartt's biggest mistake is that he moves from the TE too quickly, he check the TE - who was chipping the DE, and assumes he's staying in to block. So, when the TE releases out into the pattern, Tartt doesn't see it, he's cluing in on the QB.



By the time Tartt realizes the TE has released into the pattern he has to fight through the crossing pattern.



You see here how open the TE got, Tartt is trying to recover, but, it leaves a large opening for the TE to pick up the first down. Either due to the pressure from Lynch, or just because Bridgewater got focused on the deep route, not sure, he chooses to throw the deep out route.


Bridgewater throws the ball incomplete. It's a big play early on because it leads to a missed field goal. If he hits the TE they either pick up the 1st down or have a shorter FG.

Either way, we got away with one here, but, it may have been because of the pressure. However, against more elite QB's, this would end up bad for us. Need to tighten up here - rookie mistake(to be expected from a rookie though).

on this play I thought Teddy made a good choice on the throw just executed poorly, by NFL definitions Wright comes open and I'd think a better QB like Rodgers hits the target

I have to agree with the above - BUT it is such a good example of a QB needing to play within themselves and develop to hit that throw. TOP QBs (and offenses with experience playing together) make that throw to Wright. BUT you have to throw that ball before Wright even breaks. Prudent younger QBs make the throw to the TE :) Bad young QBs try to throw to Wright when they should through to TE, LOL.

Originally posted by vrabbit:
last post for now: I know it's a 49ers board but when I broke down the 1st quarter yesterday, specifically on defense, while it confirmed that our D was outstanding I also came away feeling like Bridgewater was off on some very key throws and that's before you could even argue our defense got in his head. The play to Wright I mentioned above and a great call on a play-action fake to the right which resulted in a wide open Rudolph on the left that Teddy badly misfired on are two of the plays that made me realize this. Even worse (for Teddy, not for us) was Bridgewater's baffling decision to scramble for 5 yards on the very next pass play after he misfired towards Rudolph



That's a Wright TD if he puts in the EZ. Out of those 3 I feel like a better QB will hit his man on 1 or maybe 2 plays. It's why I believe it'll be important to get off to a good start against Pitt this weekend because even while playing outstanding defense the Vikes definitely left some yards/points out there due to Bridgewater being off and obviously Ben is a much better QB.

Very True - I suspect Managini's defense is going to be much more volatile that Fangio's in the sense the D will make more big splash plays, but also give up some big ones as well. An experienced QB would have taken advantage of a lot more yards than Teddy did.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
So, I mentioned it in the OP, but here's an example of how TS was demanding attention from the safeties. This was a run play on our 1st TD drive, Hyde nearly breaks this out for a huge gain.


This is right at the snap of the ball, you see how far wide the safety has shifted. The ball is on the near hash and he's on the far hash, because Torrey Smith is split out wide. This, effectively, pulls that safety out of any chance of impacting this running play. Just a stretch run off tackle. PS, we pretty much run this exact same play for the 2nd TD but with VD and Boldin split out wide.

Sorry but I don't agree with your assessment that the Safety's position is due to Torrey Smith (as opposed to another WR).

The safety is lined up more to the right because of the 49ers alignment stacking 2 WRs on that side.

Having that safety move over more to the mid doesn't make that since with 8 already in the box. To put him more in the middle, the Vikings would be gambling big time that its a run and Kap won't change the play since that would leave the 2 CBs on an island against the 2 WRs

The play is made because of Staley's block and Hyde's cut back

to respectfully disagree, you still have 3 eligible receivers to that side - with us already showing deep routes off our TE's early, if it was simply because of strength of formation, he should be, at least, inside the tackle, not 3 yards outside. The only reason for a safety to be that far outside is to provide deep outside help to a premier threat.

I'm not saying the play was made solely because of TS, more, that, if Hyde doesn't get tackled by his feet, he's gone, because the safety was so far wide. We ran formations like this last year, but didn't get near that kind of safety slide - we sorta had it when Randy Moss was here, but still, not to that degree.

Think of it this way, the more "inside" over the Tackle the safety plays, the deeper his alignment has to be to provide over the top help to the TS 1/3 of the field. Either way, the Safety is put in a bind with TS outside which takes him out of run support. IF its NOT TS, the defense could have just let the CB handle the deep threat alone :)

Originally posted by HearstFan:
Very True - I suspect Managini's defense is going to be much more volatile that Fangio's in the sense the D will make more big splash plays, but also give up some big ones as well. An experienced QB would have taken advantage of a lot more yards than Teddy did.

There were a few MIN pass plays that went for 18 and 19 yards. On both those plays, the 49ers blitzed but didn't get to the QB. The pay off to blitzing is when they do notch a QB sack, they need to get off the field on that set of downs. Mangini has said he will blitz depending on the opponent. Very interesting to see how he gameplans against Roethlesberger.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Thanks for clarifying the aspect of the WCO I didn't specify...horizontal attack!

The pattern-match is a staple of Mangini's background in NE and here under Fangio. It's an assumption on my part that we will see that in the future (although, like you noted, not this game...or exactly like how Fangio used it).

Man, this is so fun to not only break down but watch evolve. Thank you for your major contributions here...and to the others who add in a lot of time to this thread to help make us all better fans.

WCO has both horizontal and vertical elements. The triangle stretch plays (spot for example) attacks both, that's how you get the zone busting triangle. However, most WCO are perfectly happy attack horizontal of your gonna let them. It's when the defense makes an adjustment to take away the horizontal that the more explosive vertical game becomes more in the forefront. It's a great system and that's why it's going on its 4th decade exploiting coverages.

Yeah, I think we're all saying the same thing, just only partially saying everything - maybe just to give a juxtaposition of the different ways in which we've employed the WCO from last year to this year, I'll provide this short write-up:

Last year, because, for so long and with great success, we were mainly a power blocking team. Bill Walsh, ran both ZBS and power-man and therefore his "triangle" stretches worked to great effect. Gruden tended to more of the power-man when he coached because he had a big bruiser like Alstott. Shanahan always looked for ZBS backs and ran that to great effectiveness. Frank Gore and our O-lineman were much more suited for the power man, slashing type of plays.

Frank Gore wasn't your typical ZBS runner, he could do it ok, but it wasn't his strong suite. He was best suited to a slashing, hide behind pulling lineman, type of runner. That's what put him on the map when Norv Turner was here.

With a power-man, because of the cross blocking and pulling lineman, your LB's and Safeties have to play much more "filling" responsibility to take on those pulling and down blocking lineman. Vertical penetration is your best weapon against a power-blocking scheme. So, your PA tends to create more "vertical" movement from the defense, therefore, your best passing concepts off those are vertical(i.e. your drive, levels, sail, smash, etc). This is where CK seemed to be a great fit for, his big arm allowed even more vertical stretching abilities. So, I can see why Harbaugh became enamored with the possibility of CK being an even better fit that AS. You're a vertical stretching team, that can go even more vertical - heck yes. We saw that in 2012.

by 2014, we were seeing so much cover 3 zone, that your vertical stretches don't work as well against. Plus, we didn't have a true "x" receiver. So, we started seeing a lot more horizontal stretching concepts of multiple WR's, but not the bread and butter. The problem was, our horizontal stretches weren't so effective off of a vertical stressing run game.

This year, with a more ZBS, our passing concepts were more horizontal in a straight drop back, and horizontally movement based, with a vertical stretching element. Meaning, we stretched out the zones vertically and then played off the horizontal movement by bringing receivers on the move horizontally through zones.

We're still "philosophically" the same - establish a strong running game, setup your PA passes off that and control the ball. But, strategically, we're different. focusing much more on horizontal movement concepts(slide, waggle, floods formed with a backside crosser - similar to a speedo,) that still create vertical stretches.

Agreed. Certainly on the same page but this description helps a lot in level-setting. Thanks you two.

This is very helpful conceptually, I only disagree on one issue - which is probably more an opinion of result versus what the OC philosophy was trying to accomplish. The power run game seemed to invite the penetrating DL and even ILB gap blitzes that disrupted the power run game fairly well - teams like AZ and Seattle that ran DL penetration schemes did will shutting down the 9ers run game and forcing the pass.

The BYPRODUCT was that the aggressive DL and ILB downhill gap coverage also created exactly the kind of pressure up the middle that disrupted a more vertical passing game, especially off PA. Putting the 9er Power Run game with the Vertical Passing concepts they were running were a poor match in the 9ers scheme and execution.

In this sense, I think matching quicker hitting horizontal pass concepts with the power run would have been a better match. But that is more an indictment of how poorly designed/executed the HARO offense seemed to be.

Just my 2 cents, LOL

Originally posted by thl408:
There were a few MIN pass plays that went for 18 and 19 yards. On both those plays, the 49ers blitzed but didn't get to the QB. The pay off to blitzing is when they do notch a QB sack, they need to get off the field on that set of downs. Mangini has said he will blitz depending on the opponent. Very interesting to see how he gameplans against Roethlesberger.

Looking at Big Ben's passing under pressure stats from 2014, he's a beast no matter what we throw at him


The dude actually had a higher QB rating when pressured and/or blitzed. Probably due to his ability and strength to avoid sacks and make a play.

We need to throw in enough variety to keep him from settling in and getting in a groove. We show any kind of tendency and he might go off.

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Originally posted by thl408:
There were a few MIN pass plays that went for 18 and 19 yards. On both those plays, the 49ers blitzed but didn't get to the QB. The pay off to blitzing is when they do notch a QB sack, they need to get off the field on that set of downs. Mangini has said he will blitz depending on the opponent. Very interesting to see how he gameplans against Roethlesberger.

Looking at Big Ben's passing under pressure stats from 2014, he's a beast no matter what we throw at him


The dude actually had a higher QB rating when pressured and/or blitzed. Probably due to his ability and strength to avoid sacks and make a play.

We need to throw in enough variety to keep him from settling in and getting in a groove. We show any kind of tendency and he might go off.

Agreed. The key is to mix it up. One thing going for the 49ers is that PIT's center is a sub and DeAngelo Williams is not going to be able to pick up the blitz if it's Bow coming up the A gap. But even once the blitzer gets there, Ben isn't going down with an arm tackle. Those stats are badass. Maybe Mangini throws a changeup and only sparingly blitzes.

Originally posted by HearstFan:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Thanks for clarifying the aspect of the WCO I didn't specify...horizontal attack!

The pattern-match is a staple of Mangini's background in NE and here under Fangio. It's an assumption on my part that we will see that in the future (although, like you noted, not this game...or exactly like how Fangio used it).

Man, this is so fun to not only break down but watch evolve. Thank you for your major contributions here...and to the others who add in a lot of time to this thread to help make us all better fans.

WCO has both horizontal and vertical elements. The triangle stretch plays (spot for example) attacks both, that's how you get the zone busting triangle. However, most WCO are perfectly happy attack horizontal of your gonna let them. It's when the defense makes an adjustment to take away the horizontal that the more explosive vertical game becomes more in the forefront. It's a great system and that's why it's going on its 4th decade exploiting coverages.

Yeah, I think we're all saying the same thing, just only partially saying everything - maybe just to give a juxtaposition of the different ways in which we've employed the WCO from last year to this year, I'll provide this short write-up:

Last year, because, for so long and with great success, we were mainly a power blocking team. Bill Walsh, ran both ZBS and power-man and therefore his "triangle" stretches worked to great effect. Gruden tended to more of the power-man when he coached because he had a big bruiser like Alstott. Shanahan always looked for ZBS backs and ran that to great effectiveness. Frank Gore and our O-lineman were much more suited for the power man, slashing type of plays.

Frank Gore wasn't your typical ZBS runner, he could do it ok, but it wasn't his strong suite. He was best suited to a slashing, hide behind pulling lineman, type of runner. That's what put him on the map when Norv Turner was here.

With a power-man, because of the cross blocking and pulling lineman, your LB's and Safeties have to play much more "filling" responsibility to take on those pulling and down blocking lineman. Vertical penetration is your best weapon against a power-blocking scheme. So, your PA tends to create more "vertical" movement from the defense, therefore, your best passing concepts off those are vertical(i.e. your drive, levels, sail, smash, etc). This is where CK seemed to be a great fit for, his big arm allowed even more vertical stretching abilities. So, I can see why Harbaugh became enamored with the possibility of CK being an even better fit that AS. You're a vertical stretching team, that can go even more vertical - heck yes. We saw that in 2012.

by 2014, we were seeing so much cover 3 zone, that your vertical stretches don't work as well against. Plus, we didn't have a true "x" receiver. So, we started seeing a lot more horizontal stretching concepts of multiple WR's, but not the bread and butter. The problem was, our horizontal stretches weren't so effective off of a vertical stressing run game.

This year, with a more ZBS, our passing concepts were more horizontal in a straight drop back, and horizontally movement based, with a vertical stretching element. Meaning, we stretched out the zones vertically and then played off the horizontal movement by bringing receivers on the move horizontally through zones.

We're still "philosophically" the same - establish a strong running game, setup your PA passes off that and control the ball. But, strategically, we're different. focusing much more on horizontal movement concepts(slide, waggle, floods formed with a backside crosser - similar to a speedo,) that still create vertical stretches.

Agreed. Certainly on the same page but this description helps a lot in level-setting. Thanks you two.

This is very helpful conceptually, I only disagree on one issue - which is probably more an opinion of result versus what the OC philosophy was trying to accomplish. The power run game seemed to invite the penetrating DL and even ILB gap blitzes that disrupted the power run game fairly well - teams like AZ and Seattle that ran DL penetration schemes did will shutting down the 9ers run game and forcing the pass.

The BYPRODUCT was that the aggressive DL and ILB downhill gap coverage also created exactly the kind of pressure up the middle that disrupted a more vertical passing game, especially off PA. Putting the 9er Power Run game with the Vertical Passing concepts they were running were a poor match in the 9ers scheme and execution.

In this sense, I think matching quicker hitting horizontal pass concepts with the power run would have been a better match. But that is more an indictment of how poorly designed/executed the HARO offense seemed to be.

Just my 2 cents, LOL

Well, you are true in that the vertical disruption can cause issues against the passing game - although that is true whichever passing game it is. How the power run game is complimentary of the vertical passing game is that, you tend to have your LB's and safeties playing very aggressive in vertical attack of the LOS, to physically fill holes created in the intended running lane. Much like the example of Wilhoite filling the hole that I showed earlier. So, when you have a PA movement, you'll have those players moving more aggressively downhill. This allows for a greater vertical stretch in the passing game, as your clearing routes take off, they'll often have large areas open in between the vertical zones. Whereas, the lateral movement of a ZBS tends to have the same impact but from sideline to sideline, not as much between your deep safety(ies) and LB's. I do very much agree, though, that the vertical movement of the DLine and pressure affected our ability to well execute a consistent passing offense last year.

I would throw some cents in about the HARO offense, but, I'm afraid that would probably open a can of worms/pandora's box that we could rabbit trail around forever lol. In the end, for whatever and whichever reasons, the offense failed.

Go niners!

Like Thl, i am really curious how mangini handled the blitzes on ben. In the past, most teams don't fare that well on getting to him.

Thanks thl408 and no this thread is more than enough for me.

Thanks jonnydel and that's a lot to get my head around. That's what I was getting at though as it seems with some plays that the whole line is working to push the opposition in a certain direction to create space for the QB/RB on the other side.