week 5 NYG coaches film analysis thread

Originally posted by philosoraptor:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
I think the problems came from all over the field. I didn't see Bow blowing a bunch of the pattern-match, the pattern-match fails came from the young guys, mostly. I think some of it too, is that, like Thl noted, we're not running our quarters shell look pre-snap. It seems that Mangini likes to disguise his coverage pre-snap with more pressed coverage. Whereas Fangio showed the shell. The shell allowed the DB's an extra second for reading the play, so I think that may have helped, but, like many of us saw during those years, left us susceptible to the short completions. However, we see some of the trade-off. Also, it wasn't just the fails in pattern-match or in our fire-zones, we blew a lot of man-coverage. Which was quite disappointing.

Thanks for such a prompt response. I'm just blown away at how this #5 defense dropped to #31 in just 5 games (not like we had premium talent last year) but this is just a total collapse and the players all seem to be constantly in trail-mode, lost, confused, slow to react, adjust, tentative, etc.

I agree, Brooks out certainly hurt and not having any rush at all besides Lynch (which is what you'd expect) is painful but so many of these balls were out with the first read just wide wide wide open with just simple pitch-and-catch.

Something schematically is very very wrong here.

Maybe you guys have some suggestions?

Just my 2cents. It doesnt seem like schematically an issue. In theory, these open players should be covered. It seems like an execution issue and the fact that we have so much youth on the field. Plus some key changes in what we do conceptually, as Thl, or jonny said? cant remember which one, but the fact that they arent running a shell but instead running more press man.

Thanks man but what youth? Only Acker is the young one out there. Maybe Ward in year two in the slot a bit?

You're probably talking about Tartt and Reaser on the dime/nickel sets we got exposed on, right?

But we had 50 completions so are the vets really blowing all these assignments suddenly no matter what Mangini dials up or is there something else going on? I just have a hard time believing this is a talent/IQ/transition issue esp. compared to the talent level of the #5 defense we sent out last year on crutches and in wheel chairs.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
yeah, but these are also just 3 of many, many completions. Pattern-matching only works for the first 3 seconds, after that, it can break down. Spot dropping is supposed to give the pass rush an extra second to get the QB, because you're taking away the landmark throws. but, again, after that, it can be beat conceptually. Man-coverage is only as good as how many moves the defenders is forced to cover. Too many, and you're done. Also, it makes you more susceptible to mismatches. I think sometimes, too, the threat of pass rush forced the issue for passers just as much as a real rush. Because we had guys who were known to get to the QB and who legitimately scared QB's that they could defeat their 1-1's sped things up for QB's. Right now, it's like they're all willing to stand in there because they aren't afraid of a potential rush.

Yeah, we certainly can't dismiss the pass rush. No way. Just look at the Vikings and Green Bay game. You get to the QB, we win or frustrate the best QB in the game all game long. You get a few pressures on Eli and he throws up potentially 3-4 picks.

1Q 3rd & 1
Here is the 3rd down play to force NYG into a FG. 49ers in their goaline package with 5 down linemen. NYG will run Iso Lead into the B gap - between the RG and RT. From NYG's view, Dorsey will get double teamed by the Guard and Center, the RT should block Dial and allow the FB to lead through and block Wilhoite.


At the snap, Dial sidesteps his block and the RT whiffs the block.


With Dial beating his block from the RT, this allows him to eat up the FB.


Because Dial eats up the FB, Wilhoite is free and meets the RB head on in the hole.


-1 yard. FG.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by philosoraptor:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
I think the problems came from all over the field. I didn't see Bow blowing a bunch of the pattern-match, the pattern-match fails came from the young guys, mostly. I think some of it too, is that, like Thl noted, we're not running our quarters shell look pre-snap. It seems that Mangini likes to disguise his coverage pre-snap with more pressed coverage. Whereas Fangio showed the shell. The shell allowed the DB's an extra second for reading the play, so I think that may have helped, but, like many of us saw during those years, left us susceptible to the short completions. However, we see some of the trade-off. Also, it wasn't just the fails in pattern-match or in our fire-zones, we blew a lot of man-coverage. Which was quite disappointing.

Thanks for such a prompt response. I'm just blown away at how this #5 defense dropped to #31 in just 5 games (not like we had premium talent last year) but this is just a total collapse and the players all seem to be constantly in trail-mode, lost, confused, slow to react, adjust, tentative, etc.

I agree, Brooks out certainly hurt and not having any rush at all besides Lynch (which is what you'd expect) is painful but so many of these balls were out with the first read just wide wide wide open with just simple pitch-and-catch.

Something schematically is very very wrong here.

Maybe you guys have some suggestions?

Just my 2cents. It doesnt seem like schematically an issue. In theory, these open players should be covered. It seems like an execution issue and the fact that we have so much youth on the field. Plus some key changes in what we do conceptually, as Thl, or jonny said? cant remember which one, but the fact that they arent running a shell but instead running more press man.

Thanks man but what youth? Only Acker is the young one out there. Maybe Ward in year two in the slot a bit?

You're probably talking about Tartt and Reaser on the dime/nickel sets we got exposed on, right?

But we had 50 completions so are the vets really blowing all these assignments suddenly no matter what Mangini dials up or is there something else going on? I just have a hard time believing this is a talent/IQ/transition issue esp. compared to the talent level of the #5 defense we sent out last year on crutches and in wheel chairs.

acker, reaser, tartt, and ward. Ward played most of our snaps, although ive thought he played fairly well the last couple of weeks, especially going against some tough competition at receiver.

Originally posted by philosoraptor:
acker, reaser, tartt, and ward. Ward played most of our snaps, although ive thought he played fairly well the last couple of weeks, especially going against some tough competition at receiver.

OK, figured as much. Thanks! I mentioned this last week as well against the Packers where Ward appeared to pass off his man in pattern matching...and then nobody was in that zone so had to haul ass and make the tackle on Cobb across the field. I just assumed it was an error on his part b/c of youth (not sure)...pretty sure thl408 covered that one.

Acker, Reaser and Tartt make perfect sense but the aforementioned seem to get few snaps and Acker appears to be holding his own grade-wise (better than Marcus Peters sus), so man, where are all these veteran break-downs too? Massive amount.

That's why this thread is so helpful!

Originally posted by thl408:
1Q 3rd & 1
Here is the 3rd down play to force NYG into a FG. 49ers in their goaline package with 5 down linemen. NYG will run Iso Lead into the B gap - between the RG and RT. From NYG's view, Dorsey will get double teamed by the Guard and Center, the RT should block Dial and allow the FB to lead through and block Wilhoite.

-1 yard. FG.

Textbook! Interesting that Dial is in at LDE here and not RDE.

Fun to watch Williams blow up field and Carradine as well on the other side just in case...

Originally posted by philosoraptor:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by philosoraptor:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
I think the problems came from all over the field. I didn't see Bow blowing a bunch of the pattern-match, the pattern-match fails came from the young guys, mostly. I think some of it too, is that, like Thl noted, we're not running our quarters shell look pre-snap. It seems that Mangini likes to disguise his coverage pre-snap with more pressed coverage. Whereas Fangio showed the shell. The shell allowed the DB's an extra second for reading the play, so I think that may have helped, but, like many of us saw during those years, left us susceptible to the short completions. However, we see some of the trade-off. Also, it wasn't just the fails in pattern-match or in our fire-zones, we blew a lot of man-coverage. Which was quite disappointing.

Thanks for such a prompt response. I'm just blown away at how this #5 defense dropped to #31 in just 5 games (not like we had premium talent last year) but this is just a total collapse and the players all seem to be constantly in trail-mode, lost, confused, slow to react, adjust, tentative, etc.

I agree, Brooks out certainly hurt and not having any rush at all besides Lynch (which is what you'd expect) is painful but so many of these balls were out with the first read just wide wide wide open with just simple pitch-and-catch.

Something schematically is very very wrong here.

Maybe you guys have some suggestions?

Just my 2cents. It doesnt seem like schematically an issue. In theory, these open players should be covered. It seems like an execution issue and the fact that we have so much youth on the field. Plus some key changes in what we do conceptually, as Thl, or jonny said? cant remember which one, but the fact that they arent running a shell but instead running more press man.

Thanks man but what youth? Only Acker is the young one out there. Maybe Ward in year two in the slot a bit?

You're probably talking about Tartt and Reaser on the dime/nickel sets we got exposed on, right?

But we had 50 completions so are the vets really blowing all these assignments suddenly no matter what Mangini dials up or is there something else going on? I just have a hard time believing this is a talent/IQ/transition issue esp. compared to the talent level of the #5 defense we sent out last year on crutches and in wheel chairs.

acker, reaser, tartt, and ward. Ward played most of our snaps, although ive thought he played fairly well the last couple of weeks, especially going against some tough competition at receiver.

Talking about scheme, the way Mangini uses his safeties is different than how they were playing in past seasons. Many people will call Quarters coverage "Cover 4", but there is big difference and it's the depth that the safeties are aligned as well as what they do post snap. In the Concepts thread, I mention how the Quarters safety makes a 'flat footed read'. This means he is playing with minimal depth, ready to take over in man coverage should a vertical route enter his area.

I'm not referring to having safeties at the LoS (PIT game), I mean a safety playing Quarters is aligned at 10-12 yards depth, while a safety playing deep 1/2 will be at 15-17 yards depth at the snap. This might seem insignificant, but it's not. Mangini's safeties (all deep 1/2 safeties) also gains depth at the snap as they play deep 1/2 and they keep everything in front of them. This is why we see saw Fitz exploit that area behind the LBs and in front of the safeties. It also occurred in this game, which I'll show later when I get to the 2nd half.

Originally posted by thl408:

1Q 3rd & 1


Because Dial eats up the FB, Wilhoite is free and meets the RB head on in the hole.


-1 yard. FG.

OMG Ian Williams!!! Too quick!

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/cosell-against-giants-49ers-didnt-ask-kap-read-coverage?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

Cosell makes an interesting claim here. According to him, Kap did not even have to read the field or go through any progressions throughout most of the game. It would make sense with a bad line and all, get the ball out quick as possible.

thl408 and jonnydel, anything you seen so far back that claim up? Anyone else?

What's the difference between pattern matching and man coverage?

Originally posted by swoosh6996:
http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/cosell-against-giants-49ers-didnt-ask-kap-read-coverage?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

Cosell makes an interesting claim here. According to him, Kap did not even have to read the field or go through any progressions throughout most of the game. It would make sense with a bad line and all, get the ball out quick as possible.

thl408 and jonnydel, anything you seen so far back that claim up? Anyone else?

yes and no, they did scheme some throws open for him and have some, what NCommand would call, AR1, type of plays. There were some where he made good pre-snap reads that led to a simple set and throw. There were some throws that were definitely read/progression throws though.

Kap started off looking like how he did last week on his dropbacks. Unsure of where to go with the ball. Watching it live, we saw he had time, but couldn't pull the trigger. Here is one of those plays.

1Q 3rd & 8
3 Verticals versus Tampa2. On the whiteboard, this playcall works. Sending three vertical routes up one side of the field will create a horizontal stretch to the deep zone defenders.


Kap hits the top of his drop and nothing is open to the concept side. All three veritcals have yet to clear the underneath zone defenders. All three verticals still have a defender over the top of each one.


A moment after, this is when Kap needs to either pull the trigger, or checkdown. In this case, a checkdown to Hyde would give Hyde 1v1 versus a CB on the backside. The 49ers need 8 yards so Hyde would have to work for it.


Loss of -3. Concept side, no one was open. I needed to see that because watching it live, I thought it was a repeat of last week. Guys open, but a gun shy QB.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

yes and no, they did scheme some throws open for him and have some, what NCommand would call, AR1, type of plays. There were some where he made good pre-snap reads that led to a simple set and throw. There were some throws that were definitely read/progression throws though.

Boldin TD was sprint right option....it technically has 2 passing option and 1 QB run option. It was good enough for Joe and Steve...so it's good enough for me . There is nothing wrong with scheming open a number 1 option 90-95% of the time.

Patton on top of the screen The guy is useless. All he does is run wide-open down the field.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by swoosh6996:
http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/cosell-against-giants-49ers-didnt-ask-kap-read-coverage?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

Cosell makes an interesting claim here. According to him, Kap did not even have to read the field or go through any progressions throughout most of the game. It would make sense with a bad line and all, get the ball out quick as possible.

thl408 and jonnydel, anything you seen so far back that claim up? Anyone else?

yes and no, they did scheme some throws open for him and have some, what NCommand would call, AR1, type of plays. There were some where he made good pre-snap reads that led to a simple set and throw. There were some throws that were definitely read/progression throws though.

I agree. Maybe Cosell is talking in hyperbole, which I really hate because to say something always happens, or never happens, is a strong statement that is rarely true. It's true Kap had designed throws - the WR screens, the rollout right passes, but there were definitely playcalls where he had to properly read the field and make a decision for where to go with the ball.

I do see Cosell's general point because there were designed throws, but to say, "they did not ask him to read coverage or go through progressions" is incorrect imo. Just above is a play where he is asked to read the coverage (3 verticals versus Tampa2). Read the safety and the defenders on that side of the field. No one was open, he didn't pull the trigger.