week 5 NYG coaches film analysis thread

Same drive as the 3rd down conversions for NYG. Referring to post#53, here NYG plays off of that route combination seen in that play. Instead of the RB (Vareen) running a circle route (purple) like in post#53, here he runs to the flat.
Slant-Flat concept.


Bow just saw this coming at him earlier in the drive.


Vareen breaks outside and Bow is in no position to make up ground on such a short distance throw.

Originally posted by Niners816:

^^^You can tell the Giants OC has WCO roots. We will see this play again on our Celek TD.

I believe they've spent the last 2-3 years installing it (and took their lumps). Looks like its starting to pay off.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by thl408:
This is a beautifully designed play which I'd like to show from an offensive perspective later. NYG destroyed us with the Slant-Flat concept. Not exaggerating, they must have connected on about 6 Slant Flat combos throughout this game.

Haha....did I say something about their OC having WCO roots Not much more WCO then a slant-flat combo

Eli has adapted fairly quickly from a 'run and shoot' like scheme to WCO.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:
^^^You can tell the Giants OC has WCO roots. We will see this play again on our Celek TD.

I believe they've spent the last 2-3 years installing it (and took their lumps). Looks like its starting to pay off.

They just installed WCO in 2014 when McAdoo came over from Mike McCarthy's GB staff. Eli had been in run and shoot with Kevin Gilbride.

Originally posted by NCommand:

I believe they've spent the last 2-3 years installing it (and took their lumps). Looks like its starting to pay off.

Originally posted by thl408:

Eli has adapted fairly quickly from a 'run and shoot' like scheme to WCO.

McAdoo uses probably my favorite current non-Shanahan WCO. He's a part of the McCarthey GB flavor.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:

^^^You can tell the Giants OC has WCO roots. We will see this play again on our Celek TD.

I believe they've spent the last 2-3 years installing it (and took their lumps). Looks like its starting to pay off.

They just installed WCO in 2014 when McAdoo came over from Mike McCarthy's GB staff. Eli had been in run and shoot with Kevin Gilbride.

Thank you. I have to say I'm impressed. It usually takes a good 2-3 full years to get it rolling properly esp in getting the proper personnel.

Originally posted by thl408:
They just installed WCO in 2014 when McAdoo came over from Mike McCarthy's GB staff. Eli had been in run and shoot with Kevin Gilbride.

Thanks for that info, I hadn't been paying attention! It did look pretty familiar and very nice. Eli may be able to reach his potential in the WCO...more consistency, from gun slinger to complete QB.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:
^^^You can tell the Giants OC has WCO roots. We will see this play again on our Celek TD.

+ Show all quotes
I believe they've spent the last 2-3 years installing it (and took their lumps). Looks like its starting to pay off.

They just installed WCO in 2014 when McAdoo came over from Mike McCarthy's GB staff. Eli had been in run and shoot with Kevin Gilbride.

Thank you. I have to say I'm impressed. It usually takes a good 2-3 full years to get it rolling properly esp in getting the proper personnel.

OBJ on short passes, in stride, with room to run. I'd say that's some proper personnel. Big props to Eli though. He has transitioned well.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
I think the problems came from all over the field. I didn't see Bow blowing a bunch of the pattern-match, the pattern-match fails came from the young guys, mostly. I think some of it too, is that, like Thl noted, we're not running our quarters shell look pre-snap. It seems that Mangini likes to disguise his coverage pre-snap with more pressed coverage. Whereas Fangio showed the shell. The shell allowed the DB's an extra second for reading the play, so I think that may have helped, but, like many of us saw during those years, left us susceptible to the short completions. However, we see some of the trade-off. Also, it wasn't just the fails in pattern-match or in our fire-zones, we blew a lot of man-coverage. Which was quite disappointing.

Maybe the coaches are not as good teachers as they led us to believe. Most of the coaches on this staff have come from losing teams.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:

^^^You can tell the Giants OC has WCO roots. We will see this play again on our Celek TD.

I believe they've spent the last 2-3 years installing it (and took their lumps). Looks like its starting to pay off.

+ Show all quotes
They just installed WCO in 2014 when McAdoo came over from Mike McCarthy's GB staff. Eli had been in run and shoot with Kevin Gilbride.

Thank you. I have to say I'm impressed. It usually takes a good 2-3 full years to get it rolling properly esp in getting the proper personnel.

OBJ on short passes, in stride, with room to run. I'd say that's some proper personnel. Big props to Eli though. He has transitioned well.

For sure. I'd take that! Eli really struggled last year. It was ugly but so far he appears to have made that next level for sure.

Now, about Mangini and this scheme + talent.

Are we going to have to get new personnel now. New scheme? Wait over a year for it to all come together?

Typing out loud here.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by thl408:

This is a beautifully designed play which I'd like to show from an offensive perspective later. NYG destroyed us with the Slant-Flat concept. Not exaggerating, they must have connected on about 6 Slant Flat combos throughout this game.

Haha....did I say something about their OC having WCO roots Not much more WCO then a slant-flat combo

Eli has adapted fairly quickly from a 'run and shoot' like scheme to WCO.

I think that's why he's looking a lot better at QB.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:

^^^You can tell the Giants OC has WCO roots. We will see this play again on our Celek TD.

I believe they've spent the last 2-3 years installing it (and took their lumps). Looks like its starting to pay off.

They just installed WCO in 2014 when McAdoo came over from Mike McCarthy's GB staff. Eli had been in run and shoot with Kevin Gilbride.

+ Show all quotes
Thank you. I have to say I'm impressed. It usually takes a good 2-3 full years to get it rolling properly esp in getting the proper personnel.

OBJ on short passes, in stride, with room to run. I'd say that's some proper personnel. Big props to Eli though. He has transitioned well.

For sure. I'd take that! Eli really struggled last year. It was ugly but so far he appears to have made that next level for sure.

Now, about Mangini and this scheme + talent.

Are we going to have to get new personnel now. New scheme? Wait over a year for it to all come together?

Typing out loud here.

NC I don't think we have to get "new personnel," but add to what we have. No doubt our young guys are taking their lumps and we can see the learning curve, but with a few added pieces who knows where it lead. We're not there, but I like to think of Seattle. Even after Carroll got his pieces, it took a good season or almost two for it really pay off. We saw it come together in 2012 and it just steamed rolled after that. I could just be optimistic, but I can see our defense taking shape by next season.

If we land a top flight o-lineman, I'm hoping we can land Joey Bosea. We saw Lynch needs a running partner something serious.

Originally posted by JDMathews49ers:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:

^^^You can tell the Giants OC has WCO roots. We will see this play again on our Celek TD.

I believe they've spent the last 2-3 years installing it (and took their lumps). Looks like its starting to pay off.

They just installed WCO in 2014 when McAdoo came over from Mike McCarthy's GB staff. Eli had been in run and shoot with Kevin Gilbride.

Thank you. I have to say I'm impressed. It usually takes a good 2-3 full years to get it rolling properly esp in getting the proper personnel.

+ Show all quotes OBJ on short passes, in stride, with room to run. I'd say that's some proper personnel. Big props to Eli though. He has transitioned well.

For sure. I'd take that! Eli really struggled last year. It was ugly but so far he appears to have made that next level for sure.

Now, about Mangini and this scheme + talent.

Are we going to have to get new personnel now. New scheme? Wait over a year for it to all come together?

Typing out loud here.

NC I don't think we have to get "new personnel," but add to what we have. No doubt our young guys are taking their lumps and we can see the learning curve, but with a few added pieces who knows where it lead. We're not there, but I like to think of Seattle. Even after Carroll got his pieces, it took a good season or almost two for it really pay off. We saw it come together in 2012 and it just steamed rolled after that. I could just be optimistic, but I can see our defense taking shape by next season.

If we land a top flight o-lineman, I'm hoping we can land Joey Bosea. We saw Lynch needs a running partner something serious.

Thanks man. Love the input/perception.

Hope we're not hijacking this thread.

Originally posted by NCommand:
For sure. I'd take that! Eli really struggled last year. It was ugly but so far he appears to have made that next level for sure.

Now, about Mangini and this scheme + talent.

Are we going to have to get new personnel now. New scheme? Wait over a year for it to all come together?

Typing out loud here.

When Mangini was hired I thought it'd be a seamless transition. He's 3-4 and comes from Belichick's coaching tree, which I thought would involve pattern matching on the backend. I just assumed this because I couldn't review any of his film from CLE or NYJ. Perfect match I thought. Little did I know Mangini does many things differently. I think there is some fault here with Baalke/Tomsula. Why hire a coordinator that teaches a different coverage scheme when it was the coverage that differentiated the 49ers from many other defenses? The defense didn't need any type of overhaul. I don't know who else could have fit the description though.

During the coaching search, I suggested Wade Philips as DC. He's also a 3-4 guy, but doesn't run a 2-gap scheme. He does however play a lot of Quarters on the backend with pattern matching. Wade went with his homie Kubiak to DEN. I don't think the 49ers could have done anything about that. We've all heard the phrase 'use it or lose it'. Well if the 49ers move away from the pattern match scheme they had in place with Fangio, it's not as simple as "hey, you know what we did in 2014? Let's go back to that".

This is a big topic for me because I really enjoyed watching Fangio/Donatell coverages. It made watching film interesting. I had to watch their coverage like 4-6 times before I could understand what was going on. I know jonny has shown some examples of PMing, but it just isn't the same kind because there are indeed different PM principles and rules that vary in complexity. I will try to explain this with film as the season progresses - the differences in coverages between Mangini and Fangio defenses.

Originally posted by thl408:
I will try to explain this with film as the season progresses - the differences in coverages between Mangini and Fangio defenses.

It will be interesting to see how the Mangini defence settles over the course of the season. You would hope that the coverage has less execution errors and what was intended starts to come through more clearly.

But will be interested to see your comparison as time moves on.