49ers Head Coach Kyle Shanahan Thread

Originally posted by Giedi:

Well, I think it's more of getting the right talent to fit the system. First rounder RG3 or second rounder Colin Kaepernick wouldn't fit in this system as well as a fourth round guy in Kirk Cousins. Then again Bret and Elway were very high round draft pics that were just as athletically gifted as Colin and RG3 that also did extremely well in this system too. If it's true that 2018 QB class is as strong as the draft nerds say - with an 8-8 record (or worse), I think there is going to be some high quality quarterbacks available to ShanaLynch in 2018 without needing to do any moves to trade up at all. In the past first rounds - Dan Marino was pick # 27, Jim Kelly was pick # 14, Big Ben was pick # 11, and I'm not even talking about QB's that have been chosen in the later rounds that have been FQB's. In other words, I think we can safely win 8 games and still have a great chance to get a FQB.

You need to look at who's in this draft...Luke falk and Mason Rudolph are not Dan Marino or Jim Kelly. Also the QB position while important back then wasn't in demand like it is now. The game has made it that way.

For every Kirk cousin there's about 20 Conner cooks when thinking you're smart enough to draft a QB in the mid rds. Look at what the Rams gave up for Goff and imo all 3 top qbs (in next yrs draft) are much better prospects then he was...if you don't have a top 3 pick your not getting one of them without giving up a s**t ton of future picks which we need!

As far as safe to say we can win 8 games and still get a FQB? Couldn't disagree with you more. You bring up Big Ben well Pitt went 6-10 the yr before....you want to be the Bills more power to ya, I'm not a fan who wants moral victories that's all 8-8 is to me. We saw those type of records for 7 straight seasons and are STILL looking for a FQB.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Well, I think it's more of getting the right talent to fit the system. First rounder RG3 or second rounder Colin Kaepernick wouldn't fit in this system as well as a fourth round guy in Kirk Cousins. Then again Bret and Elway were very high round draft pics that were just as athletically gifted as Colin and RG3 that also did extremely well in this system too. If it's true that 2018 QB class is as strong as the draft nerds say - with an 8-8 record (or worse), I think there is going to be some high quality quarterbacks available to ShanaLynch in 2018 without needing to do any moves to trade up at all. In the past first rounds - Dan Marino was pick # 27, Jim Kelly was pick # 14, Big Ben was pick # 11, and I'm not even talking about QB's that have been chosen in the later rounds that have been FQB's. In other words, I think we can safely win 8 games and still have a great chance to get a FQB.

You need to look at who's in this draft...Luke falk and Mason Rudolph are not Dan Marino or Jim Kelly. Also the QB position while important back then wasn't in demand like it is now. The game has made it that way.

For every Kirk cousin there's about 20 Conner cooks when thinking you're smart enough to draft a QB in the mid rds. Look at what the Rams gave up for Goff and imo all 3 top qbs (in next yrs draft) are much better prospects then he was...if you don't have a top 3 pick your not getting one of them without giving up a s**t ton of future picks which we need!

As far as safe to say we can win 8 games and still get a FQB? Couldn't disagree with you more. You bring up Big Ben well Pitt went 6-10 the yr before....you want to be the Bills more power to ya, I'm not a fan who wants moral victories that's all 8-8 is to me. We saw those type of records for 7 straight seasons and are STILL looking for a FQB.

NY, I won't disagree with anything you posted, but the question is, what are kyle and Lynch going to do? I am sympathetic with your sentiments, but what will Lynch and kyle do once we are well into the season ? If we have a shot at a playoff spot( i know, very unlikely), i can't believe they don't go for it, knowing full well we would be out manned in the next round. Question is how will they handle a situation like that? I just don't see them backing off when we get further into the season, and at least have a shot at a playoff slot. I don't htink they are built that way. But your point is, to not try and play to a level we can't sustain...and in the process, end up with a better draft slot. Historically, 8-8 gets you about draft pick midway thru, ie, 15-16 or so . Somehow, i think we have 6 Ws as a lock, or certainly very likely, and could possibly get another couple. Once past the wild card, however, opposition gets tough and our winning there....well, i wouldn't bet on us. Just too many really good teams in those that remain. So where and at what point does kyle/john start thinking play the rooks or 2nd string as starters? When you think about it, doing a slo- mo tank is not as easy as it sounds, and secondly, i just don't think kyle and john want any part of something like that And i feel pretty sure the players aren't interested in a tank either. Not an overt one, mind you, but a semi or gentle tank. Just no way with the kind of talent amassed in off season that kyle and john go that route.

So i think, even tho it means a lesser draft pick, john and lynch go all out to win each and every game. Frankly i just don't see how they could do what you propose wtihout being obvious about it. If we happened to have the same injuries as previous yrs, well then sure, a tank wouldn't be that hard. But that is where KYle started...improving the health of our overall team and getting our average of 17 guys on IR for the yr....OFF IR. We would all like to see that. So i think your idea is what is best for draft slot, but i just don't see it going down when left to kyle or john.

IF, on the other hand, we don't have 6 W lock team with a shot at a couple more Ws, then , sure, a slo-mo tank would be a bit easier. But if, as i suspect, we are a lot better than anyone dares think about, any kind of tanking would be very difficult. And the players sure wouldn't get behind it. They are tired of this losing krapt, and in Joe's case, he is at end of his career. He wants to win and now. That will surely be the feeling thruout the locker room. So even if kyle wants to tank, i think it would be very difficult. On top of that, IMO, it would be a lot harder than one would think. And , it would demoralize the team were our GM/HC to go down that path. Hence, my guess is it doesn't happen, a better draft situation notwithstanding. Tjhat's the last thing the players are thinking about right now. They are all interested in Ws. And that's the way they play....and the coaches coach.

Brotha please. Kyle don't do that first - round FQB thang...he's all about that 3rd round or higher + development + patience.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

No one is saying tank, I'm saying I'd rather win 4 games & be competitive all yr then squeak out 7-8 wins and be out of reach for a top QB. This IS a QB driven league and unless a guy like Kirk becomes available you're not getting a FQB via trade or FA more than likely.

I don't want this team to me searching for a QB for the next 3+ yrs...I don't want guys like hoyer or Barkley being the starters for the next three yrs because we were lucky enough to win 7 games. I don't want to be mediocre for the next 4 yrs....you can say nothing is guaranteed in the draft till you're blue in the face, but more often then not that's where your finding your FQB, at the top of the draft. I'd rather our FO have the most options to get who they want.

This upcoming draft is looking like the 2004 draft as far as QB talent goes. I want SF to be part of that and if we manage to get Kirk, trade that pick for a kings ransom.

We aren't going to the playoffs this yr, so why not get your rookies the most experience possible, see who's got a future with us and go all in in 2018? I guess I'm look at the bigger picture.

If we have 7-8 wins then that means we're probably right on the edge of making the playoffs. Just gotta add a few more pieces including buying our franchise qb if needed.

4 win teams usually have a ton of work to do.

I get your point though, sometimes you see an 8 win team that squeaked out a few wins but weren't that good. Just like you see the Cowboys in 2015 win 4 games. They were a lot better than a 4 win team, just couldn't put it together.

In the case of 2016, I woulf have rather us gone 1-15 then 2-14 but still extremely happy with how it played out. But this year I'll take 7-9 or 8-8 over 4-12 any day. Shows huge improvement and you free agents will see we're cookin up something special

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

NY, I won't disagree with anything you posted, but the question is, what are kyle and Lynch going to do? I am sympathetic with your sentiments, but what will Lynch and kyle do once we are well into the season ? If we have a shot at a playoff spot( i know, very unlikely), i can't believe they don't go for it, knowing full well we would be out manned in the next round. Question is how will they handle a situation like that? I just don't see them backing off when we get further into the season, and at least have a shot at a playoff slot. I don't htink they are built that way. But your point is, to not try and play to a level we can't sustain...and in the process, end up with a better draft slot. Historically, 8-8 gets you about draft pick midway thru, ie, 15-16 or so . Somehow, i think we have 6 Ws as a lock, or certainly very likely, and could possibly get another couple. Once past the wild card, however, opposition gets tough and our winning there....well, i wouldn't bet on us. Just too many really good teams in those that remain. So where and at what point does kyle/john start thinking play the rooks or 2nd string as starters? When you think about it, doing a slo- mo tank is not as easy as it sounds, and secondly, i just don't think kyle and john want any part of something like that And i feel pretty sure the players aren't interested in a tank either. Not an overt one, mind you, but a semi or gentle tank. Just no way with the kind of talent amassed in off season that kyle and john go that route.

So i think, even tho it means a lesser draft pick, john and lynch go all out to win each and every game. Frankly i just don't see how they could do what you propose wtihout being obvious about it. If we happened to have the same injuries as previous yrs, well then sure, a tank wouldn't be that hard. But that is where KYle started...improving the health of our overall team and getting our average of 17 guys on IR for the yr....OFF IR. We would all like to see that. So i think your idea is what is best for draft slot, but i just don't see it going down when left to kyle or john.

IF, on the other hand, we don't have 6 W lock team with a shot at a couple more Ws, then , sure, a slo-mo tank would be a bit easier. But if, as i suspect, we are a lot better than anyone dares think about, any kind of tanking would be very difficult. And the players sure wouldn't get behind it. They are tired of this losing krapt, and in Joe's case, he is at end of his career. He wants to win and now. That will surely be the feeling thruout the locker room. So even if kyle wants to tank, i think it would be very difficult. On top of that, IMO, it would be a lot harder than one would think. And , it would demoralize the team were our GM/HC to go down that path. Hence, my guess is it doesn't happen, a better draft situation notwithstanding. Tjhat's the last thing the players are thinking about right now. They are all interested in Ws. And that's the way they play....and the coaches coach.

You wrote a lot here so I'm just gonna touch the top part lol. Imo if we're in a playoff push, which is silly talk it's because they let CJ play and he's looking like the next Kirk cousins, hoyer is who he is and it's not a playoff caliber QB. I'll be amazed if he plays half the season without getting hurt.

I'm listening to what Kyle said which is basically we want to be competitive, but not at the expense of our future...they know this team isnt close to a playoff caliber team, let alone a team that can compete every yr to make the playoffs. Only way I see that happening is with a FQB...who IMHO isn't on this team currently. Good coaching can only get you so far.

You want to be the Jets who won 9 games and sniffed the playoffs, only to bomb the following season and be a complete mess? I don't, I'd rather be the colts who at the very least have a chance with a heathy Luck every yr.

Fans need to be patient, we're bacially starting all over (which we should have done two yrs ago)....my whole pt on this subject is I'd rather be competitive and win 4 games vs squeak out some BS 7-8 wins and be out of reach for a top tier QB. I don't want to be some stagnant Jeff fisher team and if bombing one more yr or letting all the younger guys play more in order to get a game changer is what needs to be done im fine with it.

I will also add yes players want wins...but a ton of these players at least brought in aren't LT guys and the rest are all young players that know s**t isn't gonna change in one yr. I love the way kyle and John have gone about everything and that both had said numerous times that a FQB is what matters most! No FQB no future imo.

Originally posted by GhostOfBaalke:

If we have 7-8 wins then that means we're probably right on the edge of making the playoffs. Just gotta add a few more pieces including buying our franchise qb if needed.

4 win teams usually have a ton of work to do.

I get your point though, sometimes you see an 8 win team that squeaked out a few wins but weren't that good. Just like you see the Cowboys in 2015 win 4 games. They were a lot better than a 4 win team, just couldn't put it together.

In the case of 2016, I woulf have rather us gone 1-15 then 2-14 but still extremely happy with how it played out. But this year I'll take 7-9 or 8-8 over 4-12 any day. Shows huge improvement and you free agents will see we're cookin up something special

Your not getting that FQB when you get 7-8 wins (in most cases),unless you want to mortgage the present and future away for it. I'd prefer not to do that just so we can have some moral victory on being .500

You can be competitive and still come up short...as long as we're not ranked 32nd in defense and 31st in offense I'm fine with it.

No QB no future...I will say we were a 2-14 team last yr and imo the worst team in football...yes we had some turnover and a better coaching staff but we aren't a 8 win team. We have a ton of unproven players and need a ton. FAs will come if we look competitive and have money regardless...OH and they'll come if we actually have a FQB. Good example I think would be Tampa bay.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by GhostOfBaalke:
If we have 7-8 wins then that means we're probably right on the edge of making the playoffs. Just gotta add a few more pieces including buying our franchise qb if needed.

4 win teams usually have a ton of work to do.

I get your point though, sometimes you see an 8 win team that squeaked out a few wins but weren't that good. Just like you see the Cowboys in 2015 win 4 games. They were a lot better than a 4 win team, just couldn't put it together.

In the case of 2016, I woulf have rather us gone 1-15 then 2-14 but still extremely happy with how it played out. But this year I'll take 7-9 or 8-8 over 4-12 any day. Shows huge improvement and you free agents will see we're cookin up something special

Your not getting that FQB when you get 7-8 wins (in most cases),unless you want to mortgage the present and future away for it. I'd prefer not to do that just so we can have some moral victory on being .500

You can be competitive and still come up short...as long as we're not ranked 32nd in defense and 31st in offense I'm fine with it.

No QB no future...I will say we were a 2-14 team last yr and imo the worst team in football...yes we had some turnover and a better coaching staff but we aren't a 8 win team. We have a ton of unproven players and need a ton. FAs will come if we look competitive and have money regardless...OH and they'll come if we actually have a FQB. Good example I think would be Tampa bay.

Of course, the higher the pick the more likely to find a gem; but it's not impossible to find a FQB out of the first few picks. QB coaches are more important than many believe and a guy like Dak can be effective if all the other pieces are there. I'm not in favor of tanking...ever. You teach your players bad things when you tank and you put them at risk needlessly. Just my two cents.

Originally posted by GoldenGateGlory:
So if we go backwards and lose a couple of games don't lose that optimism..

It is gonna be two step forwards and one step back.

There are gonna be games we lose.

But please remember the big picture.

I expect us to lose every game next year. But if we go 0-16 I want us to go down swinging in all of them. But this is a new staff with players learning a new scheme, so it won't look like the Russian ballet every week.

I don't know about you guys, but football is a lot more fun to watch when expectations are low. The 2011 season was my most favorite in recent memory. After that, the pressure was sometimes unbearable.

It will be fun just seeing competent football for a while and players playing like they believe.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Of course, the higher the pick the more likely to find a gem; but it's not impossible to find a FQB out of the first few picks. QB coaches are more important than many believe and a guy like Dak can be effective if all the other pieces are there. I'm not in favor of tanking...ever. You teach your players bad things when you tank and you put them at risk needlessly. Just my two cents.

I never said tank good lord! I said play the young players like CJ, if we suck fine get a QB with that top pick...if we don't suck it means we might have something with him. Going 7-9 or 8-8 with hoyer does little with improving the team for the future imo....he's not the future or a LT plan. I don't want to be like the Jets who had one good season with Fitz, only to become garbage with no QB.

People that think we can just grab a QB later need to be realistic...Dak is a fine QB that has a playoff caliber team around him, we're not even remotely close to that. This draft is shaking up to be one of the best QB classes since 2004, I want to be part of that! If we get Kirk great we got a f**king valuable trading piece that could set us up for yrs, if we don't get Kirk then we get a chance at getting the next Eli, Big Ben, or rivers.

That's is much much much more important that winning 7 games with Brian hoyer

Football teams don't tank it's the NFL, you can play your young players more though. I don't want to be a mediocre football team for the next 6 yrs because we're just good enough to not have a chance at a top end QB (Bills say hi).

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Your not getting that FQB when you get 7-8 wins (in most cases),unless you want to mortgage the present and future away for it. I'd prefer not to do that just so we can have some moral victory on being .500

You can be competitive and still come up short...as long as we're not ranked 32nd in defense and 31st in offense I'm fine with it.

No QB no future...I will say we were a 2-14 team last yr and imo the worst team in football...yes we had some turnover and a better coaching staff but we aren't a 8 win team. We have a ton of unproven players and need a ton. FAs will come if we look competitive and have money regardless...OH and they'll come if we actually have a FQB. Good example I think would be Tampa bay.

Imagine if we go 8-8 then add Kirk cousins or Jimmy g(unlikely but possible). If we go 4-12 again and stink, it won't be easy to acquire free agents without overpaying again. It's not just a moral victory like that late season rams win . It's to show that we're improving and on the right track.

Originally posted by GhostOfBaalke:

Imagine if we go 8-8 then add Kirk cousins or Jimmy g(unlikely but possible). If we go 4-12 again and stink, it won't be easy to acquire free agents without overpaying again. It's not just a moral victory like that late season rams win . It's to show that we're improving and on the right track.

FA are going to go wherever the can get paid...id love to get Kirk but I'm not putting all my eggs in that basket same with jimmy G, neither should you.

Guess what we were practically dead last in offense and defense last yr with two wins...we improve on that and double our win total that is an improvement lol. We weren't even competitive last yr, if we can be at least competitive that's improvement.

I'll match your example with what happens if we win 4 games still get Kirk and have a top 3 pick?? We can get a ton of value for that pick which can set us up for the future and NOT have to spend a ton on FAs because we have all these young players. Building through the draft is the key to success imo not buying FAs.

I want long-term success with a stable cap space.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Well, I think it's more of getting the right talent to fit the system. First rounder RG3 or second rounder Colin Kaepernick wouldn't fit in this system as well as a fourth round guy in Kirk Cousins. Then again Bret and Elway were very high round draft pics that were just as athletically gifted as Colin and RG3 that also did extremely well in this system too. If it's true that 2018 QB class is as strong as the draft nerds say - with an 8-8 record (or worse), I think there is going to be some high quality quarterbacks available to ShanaLynch in 2018 without needing to do any moves to trade up at all. In the past first rounds - Dan Marino was pick # 27, Jim Kelly was pick # 14, Big Ben was pick # 11, and I'm not even talking about QB's that have been chosen in the later rounds that have been FQB's. In other words, I think we can safely win 8 games and still have a great chance to get a FQB.

You need to look at who's in this draft...Luke falk and Mason Rudolph are not Dan Marino or Jim Kelly. Also the QB position while important back then wasn't in demand like it is now. The game has made it that way.

For every Kirk cousin there's about 20 Conner cooks when thinking you're smart enough to draft a QB in the mid rds. Look at what the Rams gave up for Goff and imo all 3 top qbs (in next yrs draft) are much better prospects then he was...if you don't have a top 3 pick your not getting one of them without giving up a s**t ton of future picks which we need!

As far as safe to say we can win 8 games and still get a FQB? Couldn't disagree with you more. You bring up Big Ben well Pitt went 6-10 the yr before....you want to be the Bills more power to ya, I'm not a fan who wants moral victories that's all 8-8 is to me. We saw those type of records for 7 straight seasons and are STILL looking for a FQB.

If your top three are Josh Rosen, Sam Darnold, and Josh Allen - and ShanaLynch thinks one of these guys are the future Franchise QB's available in the 2018 draft, and they happen to mortgage their next two years worth of draft picks for one of the three. I have no problem with that. I'm relying on their expertise and their vision of the team and how the team is put together. After all they have 6 years. But I still say you shouldn't ignore the fact that of the top three guys with the most super bowl wins, two of them were never drafted in the first round.

Here's the a list of QB's drafted in the first round since Luck, (correct me if I'm wrong on any of these) RG3, Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden, EJ Manuel, Blake Bortles, Johnny Manziel, Teddy Bridgwater, Jaemis Winston, Marcus Mariota, Jared Goff, Carson Wentz, Paxton Lynch. Are all of these guys Franchise QB's - and the answer is of course not. Some are and most are not. My point is you can go back as far as you want in draft history and there were more *misses* than hits regarding supposed franchise QB's drafted in the first round. While the odds of getting a franchise QB is significantly higher when you draft a QB in the first round, they are significantly less than 50% success rate.

I think you just pick a QB in whatever round is available to you (or get one via trade or free agency) and rely on your coach to build the best possible *team* around that QB, and if a guy like Alex can't get it done, put in the 2nd round guy (for example a Colin) if he can't do it, put in the next guy until you get that franchise QB. But the focus is on developing the whole team, and not just one position.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

FA are going to go wherever the can get paid...id love to get Kirk but I'm not putting all my eggs in that basket same with jimmy G, neither should you.

Guess what we were practically dead last in offense and defense last yr with two wins...we improve on that and double our win total that is an improvement lol. We weren't even competitive last yr, if we can be at least competitive that's improvement.

I'll match your example with what happens if we win 4 games still get Kirk and have a top 3 pick?? We can get a ton of value for that pick which can set us up for the future and NOT have to spend a ton on FAs because we have all these young players. Building through the draft is the key to success imo not buying FAs.

I want long-term success with a stable cap space.

A number 3 pick and Kirk would be cool. But to get that, we'd have to be awful again. I'd take the 8-8 and Kirk. Different preferences I guess.

Originally posted by Giedi:

If your top three are Josh Rosen, Sam Darnold, and Josh Allen - and ShanaLynch thinks one of these guys are the future Franchise QB's available in the 2018 draft, and they happen to mortgage their next two years worth of draft picks for one of the three. I have no problem with that. I'm relying on their expertise and their vision of the team and how the team is put together. After all they have 6 years. But I still say you shouldn't ignore the fact that of the top three guys with the most super bowl wins, two of them were never drafted in the first round.

Here's the a list of QB's drafted in the first round since Luck, (correct me if I'm wrong on any of these) RG3, Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden, EJ Manuel, Blake Bortles, Johnny Manziel, Teddy Bridgwater, Jaemis Winston, Marcus Mariota, Jared Goff, Carson Wentz, Paxton Lynch. Are all of these guys Franchise QB's - and the answer is of course not. Some are and most are not. My point is you can go back as far as you want in draft history and there were more *misses* than hits regarding supposed franchise QB's drafted in the first round. While the odds of getting a franchise QB is significantly higher when you draft a QB in the first round, they are significantly less than 50% success rate.

I think you just pick a QB in whatever round is available to you (or get one via trade or free agency) and rely on your coach to build the best possible *team* around that QB, and if a guy like Alex can't get it done, put in the 2nd round guy (for example a Colin) if he can't do it, put in the next guy until you get that franchise QB. But the focus is on developing the whole team, and not just one position.

Why morage the future if you don't have to? Who cares about winning 6-8 games? I don't. I want to win 10+ games for the foreseeable future. Also you can bring up past qbs drafted that doesn't mean they're even close to as talent as these three guys coming out. I've seen plenty of comparisons with Sam to luck/rivers, Rosen to Ryan/Eli, and Allen to flacco/Big Ben. It's not a normal QB draft class next yr...that's the whole pt.

The NFL has made the QB the main position and without one you don't have a SB team...I mean if you want to constantly get 8 or so wins that's cool, I don't. Also you bring up mortgaging the future for a QB and then talking about building the whole which makes little sense to me (tough to do that when you give up all your picks for a QB)....why not play your your young players, see if CJ is the future and if not you got a top end pick to possibly get the future?

It's a process and I feel like some fans are trying to skip steps because it happened once to us with harbs...we aren't even remotely close to that team and we actually won 6 games the yr prior, not 2.

Originally posted by GhostOfBaalke:

A number 3 pick and Kirk would be cool. But to get that, we'd have to be awful again. I'd take the 8-8 and Kirk. Different preferences I guess.

That's fair, I don't think we will be good anyway and I'm okay with that for this season.

#trusttheprocess