49ers Head Coach Kyle Shanahan Thread

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Why morage the future if you don't have to? Who cares about winning 6-8 games? I don't. I want to win 10+ games for the foreseeable future. Also you can bring up past qbs drafted that doesn't mean they're even close to as talent as these three guys coming out. I've seen plenty of comparisons with Sam to luck/rivers, Rosen to Ryan/Eli, and Allen to flacco/Big Ben. It's not a normal QB draft class next yr...that's the whole pt.

The NFL has made the QB the main position and without one you don't have a SB team...I mean if you want to constantly get 8 or so wins that's cool, I don't. Also you bring up mortgaging the future for a QB and then talking about building the whole which makes little sense to me (tough to do that when you give up all your picks for a QB)....why not play your your young players, see if CJ is the future and if not you got a top end pick to possibly get the future?

It's a process and I feel like some fans are trying to skip steps because it happened once to us with harbs...we aren't even remotely close to that team and we actually won 6 games the yr prior, not 2.

I just happen to think that football is a team game and while the QB is a central component to a football team, I think defense and wide receivers and a good running game also affect whether a QB is a successful franchise QB or not. Because *so what* if you have a John Elway or Andrew Luck but your team can't run the ball to convert a 3rd down? So what if you have a Dan Marino, but his O Line leaks like a sieve.

A franchise QB starts with coaching. I don't think it starts with the franchise player. You look at the Dynasties of the past, and the franchise QB's that have populated those dynasties, it starts with good coaching - and good coaches are good because they have a good system. We really don't know yet if ShanaLynch is a good coach, he will be if he gets his FQB. Harbaugh is gone because he never got that FQB - close with Alex, and ran out of time with Colin, but I agree - a franchise QB is worth a lot of high draft picks. They are essential to consistent winning seasons, year in and year out. Maybe they are even worth mortgaging two years worth of draft picks, I don't know, but I'll leave it to ShanaLynch and our resident draft nerds to figure that out. God knows our 2012 draft was equivalent to basically trading the whole draft for nothing.

I think it's still a valid and important fact that two of the top three QB's with multiple super bowl wins were *not* drafted in the first round. That's OK that you don't happen to think that's an important fact. I just happen to think that with the WCO system and the type of players Kyle wants in his version of the WCO, I think that he can find his FQB in the later rounds. Just my opinion, don't shoot me. You know what they say about opinions? They are like arm pits, everybody has 'em and they all stink.

Really nIce post , Giedi. Only comment is to emphasize, not just great coaches, but coaches who are great OCs , are true QB whisperers (unlike harbaw), AND basically have the BW background of coaching experience. Coach Walsh had coached every position on the field, both O and D, by the time he came here. He actually was very well qualified for HC long before he came here. But Paul Brown kept him down by not stepping aside and when a relatively middle aged man finally got his chance at HC it was next door at Stanford. The rest is hx. Whether kyle has actually held the position of every coach on the staff , i don't know. I do know that he can coach every position, O or D, and that he is a true QB whisperer , altho i hate that name....it sure never applied to harbaw. Also being one of the best , if not the best OC is key, in that very often when a DC is promoted to HC, he is 100% dependent on his hot shot OC staying around. And usually if the OC is spectacular, he ends up being HC elsewhere...exactly how kyle got here. And the team from which he came was then left with no OC, or not a great OC. So, HC should by rights be a terrific OC. Coaching other positions, or certainly knowing each of the other positions , is key too, if the new HC is to succeed. Otherwise it is just a revolving door of OCs and to a lesser extent, DCs.

Right now we have the perfect setup for the perfect storm...a storm where we thunder our way back to legitimacy, and routine shots at SBs. The key factors are in place, namely OC/HC and to date, a GM who has excellence written all over him. We have not yet even seen one TC day, but the players know. The sense of greatness is in the air. Joe S, who last yr at this time surely must have thot his shot at a SB had expired...once again senses something great in the air. Already the players know and have commented on how Kyle can diagram every play, teach it, break it down, show who should have been where, and what each guy should have done on that particular play.

If you happen to stumble into one of these guys, the first thing you do is nail them down for a long spell. Jed has done that. The GM, who can ruin or be spectacular , is of equal importance. I don't recall a setup before where the GM was equal to the HC, except in cases where one guy is both. But John and Kyle are co-equals, paid the same, both young, both with LT experience in NFL, and both aggressive, thotful guys. So far has been a terrific tandem, way better than having just one guy be boht HC/GM. Very few have made that work, but here, with co-equals, we get the best and double experience than if kyle were both GM and HC.

A final touch is that both GM and HC know how to evaluate talent , especially at Qb. One has learned from the ground up, beginning as a ball boy for his dad, a former 9er OC. Then he worked his way up the NFL coaching chain, from one position coach to the next. But always, he had the experience of his dad, a whiz bang OC , to fall back on. The other learned on the field en route to 8 or 9 all pro yrs at DB and then in a melange of sports broadcasting, having a good buddy like Elway who encouraged John L to get into GMing, and then having the smarts and personality to know the right people, learn all the right things...along with his 9 yrs of NFL knowledge acquired on the field.

Both our guys have the pedigree, and currently are good friends, not one guy lording it over the other. They are two units, working together to come to decisions both agree on. Also, Lynch is smart enough to re-look at a player(s) that he had removed from his list , but Kyle wanted both badly.(CJ and Williams).

If one were to sit down and draw up the one best way to build a team for many championship runs,(not to mention titles), it would be hard to beat the path these two have followed and ended up with one another. Sure we have yet to see one ball snapped in PS, but right now, from here, looking at progress made from last yr...we are so far ahead of the curve it is ridiculous. True the big acquisition is FR QB , but wisely both GM and HC deferred on that this yr, there being no qualified QBs in the top 8 that were worthy of a rd 1 pick, let alone a #2 pick in the draft. Prior to draft they settled on a guy who kyle had previously coached, who had good fundamentals, and knew his WCO . So passing on Trubs et al was a very wise choice, AND they got their #1 pick from amongst the FAs available. The Cousins thing is still out there, but kyle and john have moved on...if Cousins ends up here next yr, fantastic, IF not, they are planning for that also.

As Giedi points out above, a FR QB with no O support around him (eg Marino with no OL), or a hotshot QB with no D support(Brees most of the time except one yr), just finding a FR QB isn't the whole deal. The remainder of the pieces have to be in place also. With something like a handful of bona fide players at end of last yr, we needed something like 8-10 starters on O and 8-10 starters on D. Post FA and draft, we now are missing an obvious FR QB, #1 WR, 1 or 2 ERs, and an all pro center. Also throw in a an all pro CB. And that 's it. To come that far in this short of a period of time just seems impossible. But yet here we are, just a handful of key players away from having a SB contender. Granted the missing pieces are at key slots, but we went from a handful of starters to a handful of slots left to fill...a remarkable feat by any measure.

Instead of needing players everywhere, it is now down to a mere 4 or 5 key guys. We have tons of cap space ($62mil), we have a shot at a quantum leap in QB sitting over in Wash, who wants to come here,(except dan snyder doesn't want him to), we have next yrs draft, we have FA next yr, we have a potential FR QB in Hoyer (maybe), and a potential developmental FR QB in CJ. That is 5 different avenues we have to come up with a FR Qb. So whereas we don't have our FR QB, we do have most of the rest of the O and D we need, and we have at least 5 different routes by which to get a FR QB. There may be none next yr, or one and we don't get him. Meantime our QB this yr(Hoyer + backup Barks) as well as a developmental QB in CJ both have the yr to show us if they are qualifiers for the job. We have given them a great HC/OC, a great GM, and very solid D and O( on paper only to date)...all the requirements are in place to get the QB we need. If we end up with none, then we add to our weaknesses, and play thru the yr WCO , solidifying everything we need for a QB to be successful.

Who among us could have even imagined half of what has been done to date? Certainly not I. Deferring our first pick for FR QB was a brilliant move, and cementing the best FA Qb for Kyle's WCO early on was another . Rebuild of the D is just unimaginable. We had over half the team being legitimate deadwood...all now gone. All those 2nd stringers that were starting...gone or now relegated to the bench.

Giedi mentions "team game". Well, that's what has been moved, cut, pieced together, bought, traded, or drafted. With 75 man cuts deferred until Sept (en route to 53)., we may yet have another player or two from another team's cuts. The extra time has allowed us to learn as much as possible about our cuts, and whereas we will be cutting some guys who start elsewhere, other teams may very well provide us with an upgrade or two ...so it cuts both ways. To have gotten our FR QB right off the bat would have been an almost impossible feat. But we made up for it by shoring up as much as possible boht O and D, around the FR QB slot. And who knows...maybe CJ IS the one...or to a lesser extent Hoyer. They will both have an opportunity over the next yr to earn the starting role as FR QB...or it may come via WASH. Whatever happens, we have gone from dreck to being well placed to find and acquire a FR QB next yr...or the yr after. That part is purely luck, as well as the ability of GM/HC to determine if a potential FR QB is truly legit...or not. The rest is well on the way to recovery...and possibly greatness. Now let's see what we have on the field.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Really nIce post , Giedi. Only comment is to emphasize, not just great coaches, but coaches who are great OCs , are true QB whisperers (unlike harbaw), AND basically have the BW background of coaching experience. Coach Walsh had coached every position on the field, both O and D, by the time he came here. He actually was very well qualified for HC long before he came here. But Paul Brown kept him down by not stepping aside and when a relatively middle aged man finally got his chance at HC it was next door at Stanford. The rest is hx. Whether kyle has actually held the position of every coach on the staff , i don't know. I do know that he can coach every position, O or D, and that he is a true QB whisperer , altho i hate that name....it sure never applied to harbaw. Also being one of the best , if not the best OC is key, in that very often when a DC is promoted to HC, he is 100% dependent on his hot shot OC staying around. And usually if the OC is spectacular, he ends up being HC elsewhere...exactly how kyle got here. And the team from which he came was then left with no OC, or not a great OC. So, HC should by rights be a terrific OC. Coaching other positions, or certainly knowing each of the other positions , is key too, if the new HC is to succeed. Otherwise it is just a revolving door of OCs and to a lesser extent, DCs.

Right now we have the perfect setup for the perfect storm...a storm where we thunder our way back to legitimacy, and routine shots at SBs. The key factors are in place, namely OC/HC and to date, a GM who has excellence written all over him. We have not yet even seen one TC day, but the players know. The sense of greatness is in the air. Joe S, who last yr at this time surely must have thot his shot at a SB had expired...once again senses something great in the air. Already the players know and have commented on how Kyle can diagram every play, teach it, break it down, show who should have been where, and what each guy should have done on that particular play.

If you happen to stumble into one of these guys, the first thing you do is nail them down for a long spell. Jed has done that. The GM, who can ruin or be spectacular , is of equal importance. I don't recall a setup before where the GM was equal to the HC, except in cases where one guy is both. But John and Kyle are co-equals, paid the same, both young, both with LT experience in NFL, and both aggressive, thotful guys. So far has been a terrific tandem, way better than having just one guy be boht HC/GM. Very few have made that work, but here, with co-equals, we get the best and double experience than if kyle were both GM and HC.

A final touch is that both GM and HC know how to evaluate talent , especially at Qb. One has learned from the ground up, beginning as a ball boy for his dad, a former 9er OC. Then he worked his way up the NFL coaching chain, from one position coach to the next. But always, he had the experience of his dad, a whiz bang OC , to fall back on. The other learned on the field en route to 8 or 9 all pro yrs at DB and then in a melange of sports broadcasting, having a good buddy like Elway who encouraged John L to get into GMing, and then having the smarts and personality to know the right people, learn all the right things...along with his 9 yrs of NFL knowledge acquired on the field.

Both our guys have the pedigree, and currently are good friends, not one guy lording it over the other. They are two units, working together to come to decisions both agree on. Also, Lynch is smart enough to re-look at a player(s) that he had removed from his list , but Kyle wanted both badly.(CJ and Williams).

If one were to sit down and draw up the one best way to build a team for many championship runs,(not to mention titles), it would be hard to beat the path these two have followed and ended up with one another. Sure we have yet to see one ball snapped in PS, but right now, from here, looking at progress made from last yr...we are so far ahead of the curve it is ridiculous. True the big acquisition is FR QB , but wisely both GM and HC deferred on that this yr, there being no qualified QBs in the top 8 that were worthy of a rd 1 pick, let alone a #2 pick in the draft. Prior to draft they settled on a guy who kyle had previously coached, who had good fundamentals, and knew his WCO . So passing on Trubs et al was a very wise choice, AND they got their #1 pick from amongst the FAs available. The Cousins thing is still out there, but kyle and john have moved on...if Cousins ends up here next yr, fantastic, IF not, they are planning for that also.

As Giedi points out above, a FR QB with no O support around him (eg Marino with no OL), or a hotshot QB with no D support(Brees most of the time except one yr), just finding a FR QB isn't the whole deal. The remainder of the pieces have to be in place also. With something like a handful of bona fide players at end of last yr, we needed something like 8-10 starters on O and 8-10 starters on D. Post FA and draft, we now are missing an obvious FR QB, #1 WR, 1 or 2 ERs, and an all pro center. Also throw in a an all pro CB. And that 's it. To come that far in this short of a period of time just seems impossible. But yet here we are, just a handful of key players away from having a SB contender. Granted the missing pieces are at key slots, but we went from a handful of starters to a handful of slots left to fill...a remarkable feat by any measure.

Instead of needing players everywhere, it is now down to a mere 4 or 5 key guys. We have tons of cap space ($62mil), we have a shot at a quantum leap in QB sitting over in Wash, who wants to come here,(except dan snyder doesn't want him to), we have next yrs draft, we have FA next yr, we have a potential FR QB in Hoyer (maybe), and a potential developmental FR QB in CJ. That is 5 different avenues we have to come up with a FR Qb. So whereas we don't have our FR QB, we do have most of the rest of the O and D we need, and we have at least 5 different routes by which to get a FR QB. There may be none next yr, or one and we don't get him. Meantime our QB this yr(Hoyer + backup Barks) as well as a developmental QB in CJ both have the yr to show us if they are qualifiers for the job. We have given them a great HC/OC, a great GM, and very solid D and O( on paper only to date)...all the requirements are in place to get the QB we need. If we end up with none, then we add to our weaknesses, and play thru the yr WCO , solidifying everything we need for a QB to be successful.

Who among us could have even imagined half of what has been done to date? Certainly not I. Deferring our first pick for FR QB was a brilliant move, and cementing the best FA Qb for Kyle's WCO early on was another . Rebuild of the D is just unimaginable. We had over half the team being legitimate deadwood...all now gone. All those 2nd stringers that were starting...gone or now relegated to the bench.

Giedi mentions "team game". Well, that's what has been moved, cut, pieced together, bought, traded, or drafted. With 75 man cuts deferred until Sept (en route to 53)., we may yet have another player or two from another team's cuts. The extra time has allowed us to learn as much as possible about our cuts, and whereas we will be cutting some guys who start elsewhere, other teams may very well provide us with an upgrade or two ...so it cuts both ways. To have gotten our FR QB right off the bat would have been an almost impossible feat. But we made up for it by shoring up as much as possible boht O and D, around the FR QB slot. And who knows...maybe CJ IS the one...or to a lesser extent Hoyer. They will both have an opportunity over the next yr to earn the starting role as FR QB...or it may come via WASH. Whatever happens, we have gone from dreck to being well placed to find and acquire a FR QB next yr...or the yr after. That part is purely luck, as well as the ability of GM/HC to determine if a potential FR QB is truly legit...or not. The rest is well on the way to recovery...and possibly greatness. Now let's see what we have on the field.

Entirely too much to read....no one says we can only get a QB or OL, who said that? We have 5 picks in the top 100 and will have something like $80+ million next yr to make the team overall better.

I prefer to play the young players namely CJ to see if he's got the potential to be the FQB, if he doesn't we will lose and have a better chance at a possible game changing FQB. That's what this game is based around....the QB. You have a QB you have a chance in today's NFL. We have zero chance, none, zip with a guy like Hoyer in the backfield.

PFF has SF as a 4-12 team and I'm completely fine with that, we double our win total and more than likely improve on our rankings on offense/defense. b******ting our way to 7-8 wins isn't gonna make this team better LT imo. Even Kyle has talked about it.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Really nIce post , Giedi. Only comment is to emphasize, not just great coaches, but coaches who are great OCs , are true QB whisperers (unlike harbaw), AND basically have the BW background of coaching experience. Coach Walsh had coached every position on the field, both O and D, by the time he came here. He actually was very well qualified for HC long before he came here. But Paul Brown kept him down by not stepping aside and when a relatively middle aged man finally got his chance at HC it was next door at Stanford. The rest is hx. Whether kyle has actually held the position of every coach on the staff , i don't know. I do know that he can coach every position, O or D, and that he is a true QB whisperer , altho i hate that name....it sure never applied to harbaw. Also being one of the best , if not the best OC is key, in that very often when a DC is promoted to HC, he is 100% dependent on his hot shot OC staying around. And usually if the OC is spectacular, he ends up being HC elsewhere...exactly how kyle got here. And the team from which he came was then left with no OC, or not a great OC. So, HC should by rights be a terrific OC. Coaching other positions, or certainly knowing each of the other positions , is key too, if the new HC is to succeed. Otherwise it is just a revolving door of OCs and to a lesser extent, DCs.

Right now we have the perfect setup for the perfect storm...a storm where we thunder our way back to legitimacy, and routine shots at SBs. The key factors are in place, namely OC/HC and to date, a GM who has excellence written all over him. We have not yet even seen one TC day, but the players know. The sense of greatness is in the air. Joe S, who last yr at this time surely must have thot his shot at a SB had expired...once again senses something great in the air. Already the players know and have commented on how Kyle can diagram every play, teach it, break it down, show who should have been where, and what each guy should have done on that particular play.

If you happen to stumble into one of these guys, the first thing you do is nail them down for a long spell. Jed has done that. The GM, who can ruin or be spectacular , is of equal importance. I don't recall a setup before where the GM was equal to the HC, except in cases where one guy is both. But John and Kyle are co-equals, paid the same, both young, both with LT experience in NFL, and both aggressive, thotful guys. So far has been a terrific tandem, way better than having just one guy be boht HC/GM. Very few have made that work, but here, with co-equals, we get the best and double experience than if kyle were both GM and HC.

A final touch is that both GM and HC know how to evaluate talent , especially at Qb. One has learned from the ground up, beginning as a ball boy for his dad, a former 9er OC. Then he worked his way up the NFL coaching chain, from one position coach to the next. But always, he had the experience of his dad, a whiz bang OC , to fall back on. The other learned on the field en route to 8 or 9 all pro yrs at DB and then in a melange of sports broadcasting, having a good buddy like Elway who encouraged John L to get into GMing, and then having the smarts and personality to know the right people, learn all the right things...along with his 9 yrs of NFL knowledge acquired on the field.

Both our guys have the pedigree, and currently are good friends, not one guy lording it over the other. They are two units, working together to come to decisions both agree on. Also, Lynch is smart enough to re-look at a player(s) that he had removed from his list , but Kyle wanted both badly.(CJ and Williams).

If one were to sit down and draw up the one best way to build a team for many championship runs,(not to mention titles), it would be hard to beat the path these two have followed and ended up with one another. Sure we have yet to see one ball snapped in PS, but right now, from here, looking at progress made from last yr...we are so far ahead of the curve it is ridiculous. True the big acquisition is FR QB , but wisely both GM and HC deferred on that this yr, there being no qualified QBs in the top 8 that were worthy of a rd 1 pick, let alone a #2 pick in the draft. Prior to draft they settled on a guy who kyle had previously coached, who had good fundamentals, and knew his WCO . So passing on Trubs et al was a very wise choice, AND they got their #1 pick from amongst the FAs available. The Cousins thing is still out there, but kyle and john have moved on...if Cousins ends up here next yr, fantastic, IF not, they are planning for that also.

As Giedi points out above, a FR QB with no O support around him (eg Marino with no OL), or a hotshot QB with no D support(Brees most of the time except one yr), just finding a FR QB isn't the whole deal. The remainder of the pieces have to be in place also. With something like a handful of bona fide players at end of last yr, we needed something like 8-10 starters on O and 8-10 starters on D. Post FA and draft, we now are missing an obvious FR QB, #1 WR, 1 or 2 ERs, and an all pro center. Also throw in a an all pro CB. And that 's it. To come that far in this short of a period of time just seems impossible. But yet here we are, just a handful of key players away from having a SB contender. Granted the missing pieces are at key slots, but we went from a handful of starters to a handful of slots left to fill...a remarkable feat by any measure.

Instead of needing players everywhere, it is now down to a mere 4 or 5 key guys. We have tons of cap space ($62mil), we have a shot at a quantum leap in QB sitting over in Wash, who wants to come here,(except dan snyder doesn't want him to), we have next yrs draft, we have FA next yr, we have a potential FR QB in Hoyer (maybe), and a potential developmental FR QB in CJ. That is 5 different avenues we have to come up with a FR Qb. So whereas we don't have our FR QB, we do have most of the rest of the O and D we need, and we have at least 5 different routes by which to get a FR QB. There may be none next yr, or one and we don't get him. Meantime our QB this yr(Hoyer + backup Barks) as well as a developmental QB in CJ both have the yr to show us if they are qualifiers for the job. We have given them a great HC/OC, a great GM, and very solid D and O( on paper only to date)...all the requirements are in place to get the QB we need. If we end up with none, then we add to our weaknesses, and play thru the yr WCO , solidifying everything we need for a QB to be successful.

Who among us could have even imagined half of what has been done to date? Certainly not I. Deferring our first pick for FR QB was a brilliant move, and cementing the best FA Qb for Kyle's WCO early on was another . Rebuild of the D is just unimaginable. We had over half the team being legitimate deadwood...all now gone. All those 2nd stringers that were starting...gone or now relegated to the bench.

Giedi mentions "team game". Well, that's what has been moved, cut, pieced together, bought, traded, or drafted. With 75 man cuts deferred until Sept (en route to 53)., we may yet have another player or two from another team's cuts. The extra time has allowed us to learn as much as possible about our cuts, and whereas we will be cutting some guys who start elsewhere, other teams may very well provide us with an upgrade or two ...so it cuts both ways. To have gotten our FR QB right off the bat would have been an almost impossible feat. But we made up for it by shoring up as much as possible boht O and D, around the FR QB slot. And who knows...maybe CJ IS the one...or to a lesser extent Hoyer. They will both have an opportunity over the next yr to earn the starting role as FR QB...or it may come via WASH. Whatever happens, we have gone from dreck to being well placed to find and acquire a FR QB next yr...or the yr after. That part is purely luck, as well as the ability of GM/HC to determine if a potential FR QB is truly legit...or not. The rest is well on the way to recovery...and possibly greatness. Now let's see what we have on the field.

Entirely too much to read....no one says we can only get a QB or OL, who said that? We have 5 picks in the top 100 and will have something like $80+ million next yr to make the team overall better.

I prefer to play the young players namely CJ to see if he's got the potential to be the FQB, if he doesn't we will lose and have a better chance at a possible game changing FQB. That's what this game is based around....the QB. You have a QB you have a chance in today's NFL. We have zero chance, none, zip with a guy like Hoyer in the backfield.

PFF has SF as a 4-12 team and I'm completely fine with that, we double our win total and more than likely improve on our rankings on offense/defense. b******ting our way to 7-8 wins isn't gonna make this team better LT imo. Even Kyle has talked about it.

You see what our record is come week 8, at that point the fan base would roll with anyone. I wouldn't make care if Barks got 4 game then CJ got 4 games. We did trade a third for an extra second next year which is huge, so I'm looking forward to development and a strong draft.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Darnold has a poise and skills that are very rare. I look forward to seeing his transition to the NFL...might break the USC curse!

I agree about Darnold. The kid has it. He has the intangibles. As a very young QB he's already climbing the pocket and exhausting his routes. These are hard to teach.

Don't let silly superstitions cloud your judgement. He's Andrew Luck type talent that would be lethal under Kyle Shannahan's tutelage. A franchise QB is a 10+ year relationship. That's where multiple championships come from.

Originally posted by SmokeCrabtrees:

You see what our record is come week 8, at that point the fan base would roll with anyone. I wouldn't make care if Barks got 4 game then CJ got 4 games. We did trade a third for an extra second next year which is huge, so I'm looking forward to development and a strong draft.

Agreed

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Darnold has a poise and skills that are very rare. I look forward to seeing his transition to the NFL...might break the USC curse!

I agree about Darnold. The kid has it. He has the intangibles. As a very young QB he's already climbing the pocket and exhausting his routes. These are hard to teach.

Don't let silly superstitions cloud your judgement. He's Andrew Luck type talent that would be lethal under Kyle Shannahan's tutelage. A franchise QB is a 10+ year relationship. That's where multiple championships come from.

Yup I also think Rosen and Allen have crazy intangibles...I'd take any three as of right now

NY, CJ won't be ready to play this year, the offense is too complicated for a kid straight out of college. Playing him would be tanking, and as much as we all want a top pick to gamble on one of these qbs, tanking is not something I ever wanna see my team do. If you fight and lose, that's okay, but you never lay down and take it.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:
I just happen to think that football is a team game and while the QB is a central component to a football team, I think defense and wide receivers and a good running game also affect whether a QB is a successful franchise QB or not. Because *so what* if you have a John Elway or Andrew Luck but your team can't run the ball to convert a 3rd down? So what if you have a Dan Marino, but his O Line leaks like a sieve.

A franchise QB starts with coaching. I don't think it starts with the franchise player. You look at the Dynasties of the past, and the franchise QB's that have populated those dynasties, it starts with good coaching - and good coaches are good because they have a good system. We really don't know yet if ShanaLynch is a good coach, he will be if he gets his FQB. Harbaugh is gone because he never got that FQB - close with Alex, and ran out of time with Colin, but I agree - a franchise QB is worth a lot of high draft picks. They are essential to consistent winning seasons, year in and year out. Maybe they are even worth mortgaging two years worth of draft picks, I don't know, but I'll leave it to ShanaLynch and our resident draft nerds to figure that out. God knows our 2012 draft was equivalent to basically trading the whole draft for nothing.

I think it's still a valid and important fact that two of the top three QB's with multiple super bowl wins were *not* drafted in the first round. That's OK that you don't happen to think that's an important fact. I just happen to think that with the WCO system and the type of players Kyle wants in his version of the WCO, I think that he can find his FQB in the later rounds. Just my opinion, don't shoot me. You know what they say about opinions? They are like arm pits, everybody has 'em and they all stink.

Brady and Montana are the exception not the norm with mid rd qbs and you know that. the idea that we will stumble upon one because of kyle is silly...The NFL is full of great offensive minds and stud evaluators....and if Kyle is the QB guru, he already got his guy in CJ...why not let him play this yr like I said? If he fails then we will be in a position to get the BEST QB prospect AND not have to burn picks for one cause John and Kyle have made it perfectly clear that a FQB is the MOST important thing in building a team.

Also we'd have all our picks and a s**t ton of money to build the rest of the team like you want....how does that not make sense?

You don't have to agree with my thoughts on being completely fine with doubling our win total and at least looking competitive on Sundays, which in turn helps us in the future....but kyle has even stated
"You never want to compete in one year at the expense of your future" and I share that same sentiment

Heh, finding a FQB in the first round is *also* an exception, not the norm.

You don't throw an inexperienced QB that doesn't know the system into the wolves. He'll develop bad habits and lose his confidence. Confidence is one of the most critical mental attributes in the WCO and what Kyle treasures the most. That ability to throw blindly and with confidence to his receivers, and that takes a lot of time and repetitions to develop. Even Montana was occasionally given certain downs a game to play in his *second year* before he became a full time starter - a year after that - to carefully develop that confidence. You can play rookies at the other skill positions such as defensive line, and defensive back, running back and possibly even linebacker. I remember Riki Ellison did a fantastic job, but the guy calling the plays were Jack Reynolds. But Skill positions that require mental awareness of game strategy and tactics take longer to develop. Positions such as QB, some offensive receiving positions, Middle Linebacker, and Free Safety are positions which need a little bit more tutoring and experience before they start full time.

We may have a FQB in CJ, then again we won't really know for at least a year or more. And I agree with you that finding the FQB is very important, and that's why even with CJ on the team, I'd like for ShanaLynch to spend the draft capital that they need to - to participate in next years supposedly very strong QB class. To *not* do otherwise, I think isn't being smart. My hope is that they get a top notch QB - maybe not a Sam Darnold - but maybe somebody in the top 3 or 4 ranked QBs in next years draft in the first round.

Typically its the Head Coaches have that win now mentality, whereas the GM have the - don't sacrifice now for the future mentality. (classic example is Ballke the draft pick hoarder) It will be interesting how Kyle handles that as time goes on, because he is in a very strong position to pretty much draft what he wants to draft and trade who he wants to trade for. The only check on his power is the GM, who is a good friend of his - and if push comes to shove with the GM, Lynch will most likely defer to Kyle because he is so inexperienced.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Heh, finding a FQB in the first round is *also* an exception, not the norm.

You don't throw an inexperienced QB that doesn't know the system into the wolves. He'll develop bad habits and lose his confidence. Confidence is one of the most critical mental attributes in the WCO and what Kyle treasures the most. That ability to throw blindly and with confidence to his receivers, and that takes a lot of time and repetitions to develop. Even Montana was occasionally given certain downs a game to play in his *second year* before he became a full time starter - a year after that - to carefully develop that confidence. You can play rookies at the other skill positions such as defensive line, and defensive back, running back and possibly even linebacker. I remember Riki Ellison did a fantastic job, but the guy calling the plays were Jack Reynolds. But Skill positions that require mental awareness of game strategy and tactics take longer to develop. Positions such as QB, some offensive receiving positions, Middle Linebacker, and Free Safety are positions which need a little bit more tutoring and experience before they start full time.

We may have a FQB in CJ, then again we won't really know for at least a year or more. And I agree with you that finding the FQB is very important, and that's why even with CJ on the team, I'd like for ShanaLynch to spend the draft capital that they need to - to participate in next years supposedly very strong QB class. To *not* do otherwise, I think isn't being smart. My hope is that they get a top notch QB - maybe not a Sam Darnold - but maybe somebody in the top 3 or 4 ranked QBs in next years draft in the first round.

Typically its the Head Coaches have that win now mentality, whereas the GM have the - don't sacrifice now for the future mentality. (classic example is Ballke the draft pick hoarder) It will be interesting how Kyle handles that as time goes on, because he is in a very strong position to pretty much draft what he wants to draft and trade who he wants to trade for. The only check on his power is the GM, who is a good friend of his - and if push comes to shove with the GM, Lynch will most likely defer to Kyle because he is so inexperienced.

Most starting qbs in the league are 1st rd picks...unless your bringing up placeholder crap qbs like hoyer/Glennon. I want a clear path to getting a top end guy....winning 6 games doesn't help with that and sure as hell doesn't get us in the playoffs.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

NY, CJ won't be ready to play this year, the offense is too complicated for a kid straight out of college. Playing him would be tanking, and as much as we all want a top pick to gamble on one of these qbs, tanking is not something I ever wanna see my team do. If you fight and lose, that's okay, but you never lay down and take it.

That's what we did last yr and we got Kyle/lynch/Solomon/foster?

Why can't CJ be ready at some pt? He played in a pro-style offense with multiple reads/bootlegs/play-action etc.

I get it everyone wants to win. I'm just looking at the bigger picture. This team is not close to a playoff team. Come week 8 throw in CJ and see what he's got...we traded up for the damn kid. Hoyer isn't the future and I'd bet money he will be injuried by week 6 anyway.

I will be pissed if we win just enough to f**k us at getting one of the qbs. I won't be mad if we win 4 games like we're projected to. I can deal with one more yr of losing to help the future. As long as we're competitive I can live with it.

That's all I'm saying, this isn't a race it's a marathon for the FO and Shanny. Kyle has already been quoted to thinking that way and I'm happy for it.

Andddddd I'm done talking about it lol, I've repeated what I've envision plenty. It's cool if people don't see it that way.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

That's what we did last yr and we got Kyle/lynch/Solomon/foster?

Why can't CJ be ready at some pt? He played in a pro-style offense with multiple reads/bootlegs/play-action etc.

I get it everyone wants to win. I'm just looking at the bigger picture. This team is not close to a playoff team. Come week 8 throw in CJ and see what he's got...we traded up for the damn kid. Hoyer isn't the future and I'd bet money he will be injuried by week 6 anyway.

I will be pissed if we win just enough to f**k us at getting one of the qbs. I won't be mad if we win 4 games like we're projected to. I can deal with one more yr of losing to help the future. As long as we're competitive I can live with it.

That's all I'm saying, this isn't a race it's a marathon for the FO and Shanny. Kyle has already been quoted to thinking that way and I'm happy for it.

Andddddd I'm done talking about it lol, I've repeated what I've envision plenty. It's cool if people don't see it that way.

This is the same line of thinking the jets FO has

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Really nIce post , Giedi. Only comment is to emphasize, not just great coaches, but coaches who are great OCs , are true QB whisperers (unlike harbaw), AND basically have the BW background of coaching experience. Coach Walsh had coached every position on the field, both O and D, by the time he came here. He actually was very well qualified for HC long before he came here. But Paul Brown kept him down by not stepping aside and when a relatively middle aged man finally got his chance at HC it was next door at Stanford. The rest is hx. Whether kyle has actually held the position of every coach on the staff , i don't know. I do know that he can coach every position, O or D, and that he is a true QB whisperer , altho i hate that name....it sure never applied to harbaw. Also being one of the best , if not the best OC is key, in that very often when a DC is promoted to HC, he is 100% dependent on his hot shot OC staying around. And usually if the OC is spectacular, he ends up being HC elsewhere...exactly how kyle got here. And the team from which he came was then left with no OC, or not a great OC. So, HC should by rights be a terrific OC. Coaching other positions, or certainly knowing each of the other positions , is key too, if the new HC is to succeed. Otherwise it is just a revolving door of OCs and to a lesser extent, DCs.

Right now we have the perfect setup for the perfect storm...a storm where we thunder our way back to legitimacy, and routine shots at SBs. The key factors are in place, namely OC/HC and to date, a GM who has excellence written all over him. We have not yet even seen one TC day, but the players know. The sense of greatness is in the air. Joe S, who last yr at this time surely must have thot his shot at a SB had expired...once again senses something great in the air. Already the players know and have commented on how Kyle can diagram every play, teach it, break it down, show who should have been where, and what each guy should have done on that particular play.

If you happen to stumble into one of these guys, the first thing you do is nail them down for a long spell. Jed has done that. The GM, who can ruin or be spectacular , is of equal importance. I don't recall a setup before where the GM was equal to the HC, except in cases where one guy is both. But John and Kyle are co-equals, paid the same, both young, both with LT experience in NFL, and both aggressive, thotful guys. So far has been a terrific tandem, way better than having just one guy be boht HC/GM. Very few have made that work, but here, with co-equals, we get the best and double experience than if kyle were both GM and HC.

A final touch is that both GM and HC know how to evaluate talent , especially at Qb. One has learned from the ground up, beginning as a ball boy for his dad, a former 9er OC. Then he worked his way up the NFL coaching chain, from one position coach to the next. But always, he had the experience of his dad, a whiz bang OC , to fall back on. The other learned on the field en route to 8 or 9 all pro yrs at DB and then in a melange of sports broadcasting, having a good buddy like Elway who encouraged John L to get into GMing, and then having the smarts and personality to know the right people, learn all the right things...along with his 9 yrs of NFL knowledge acquired on the field.

Both our guys have the pedigree, and currently are good friends, not one guy lording it over the other. They are two units, working together to come to decisions both agree on. Also, Lynch is smart enough to re-look at a player(s) that he had removed from his list , but Kyle wanted both badly.(CJ and Williams).

If one were to sit down and draw up the one best way to build a team for many championship runs,(not to mention titles), it would be hard to beat the path these two have followed and ended up with one another. Sure we have yet to see one ball snapped in PS, but right now, from here, looking at progress made from last yr...we are so far ahead of the curve it is ridiculous. True the big acquisition is FR QB , but wisely both GM and HC deferred on that this yr, there being no qualified QBs in the top 8 that were worthy of a rd 1 pick, let alone a #2 pick in the draft. Prior to draft they settled on a guy who kyle had previously coached, who had good fundamentals, and knew his WCO . So passing on Trubs et al was a very wise choice, AND they got their #1 pick from amongst the FAs available. The Cousins thing is still out there, but kyle and john have moved on...if Cousins ends up here next yr, fantastic, IF not, they are planning for that also.

As Giedi points out above, a FR QB with no O support around him (eg Marino with no OL), or a hotshot QB with no D support(Brees most of the time except one yr), just finding a FR QB isn't the whole deal. The remainder of the pieces have to be in place also. With something like a handful of bona fide players at end of last yr, we needed something like 8-10 starters on O and 8-10 starters on D. Post FA and draft, we now are missing an obvious FR QB, #1 WR, 1 or 2 ERs, and an all pro center. Also throw in a an all pro CB. And that 's it. To come that far in this short of a period of time just seems impossible. But yet here we are, just a handful of key players away from having a SB contender. Granted the missing pieces are at key slots, but we went from a handful of starters to a handful of slots left to fill...a remarkable feat by any measure.

Instead of needing players everywhere, it is now down to a mere 4 or 5 key guys. We have tons of cap space ($62mil), we have a shot at a quantum leap in QB sitting over in Wash, who wants to come here,(except dan snyder doesn't want him to), we have next yrs draft, we have FA next yr, we have a potential FR QB in Hoyer (maybe), and a potential developmental FR QB in CJ. That is 5 different avenues we have to come up with a FR Qb. So whereas we don't have our FR QB, we do have most of the rest of the O and D we need, and we have at least 5 different routes by which to get a FR QB. There may be none next yr, or one and we don't get him. Meantime our QB this yr(Hoyer + backup Barks) as well as a developmental QB in CJ both have the yr to show us if they are qualifiers for the job. We have given them a great HC/OC, a great GM, and very solid D and O( on paper only to date)...all the requirements are in place to get the QB we need. If we end up with none, then we add to our weaknesses, and play thru the yr WCO , solidifying everything we need for a QB to be successful.

Who among us could have even imagined half of what has been done to date? Certainly not I. Deferring our first pick for FR QB was a brilliant move, and cementing the best FA Qb for Kyle's WCO early on was another . Rebuild of the D is just unimaginable. We had over half the team being legitimate deadwood...all now gone. All those 2nd stringers that were starting...gone or now relegated to the bench.

Giedi mentions "team game". Well, that's what has been moved, cut, pieced together, bought, traded, or drafted. With 75 man cuts deferred until Sept (en route to 53)., we may yet have another player or two from another team's cuts. The extra time has allowed us to learn as much as possible about our cuts, and whereas we will be cutting some guys who start elsewhere, other teams may very well provide us with an upgrade or two ...so it cuts both ways. To have gotten our FR QB right off the bat would have been an almost impossible feat. But we made up for it by shoring up as much as possible boht O and D, around the FR QB slot. And who knows...maybe CJ IS the one...or to a lesser extent Hoyer. They will both have an opportunity over the next yr to earn the starting role as FR QB...or it may come via WASH. Whatever happens, we have gone from dreck to being well placed to find and acquire a FR QB next yr...or the yr after. That part is purely luck, as well as the ability of GM/HC to determine if a potential FR QB is truly legit...or not. The rest is well on the way to recovery...and possibly greatness. Now let's see what we have on the field.

Why thank you Doc, and with regards to Harbaugh, he's developed QB's everywhere he went. The problem with him was he didn't know how to play the political game very well. Neither did Walsh. Walsh was roped into being Paul Browns OC for years - when he could have gotten a HC a number of years earlier, but for Paul Brown bad mouthing Walsh to all his potential employers behind Walsh's back, so that no one would hire Walsh as HC. Harbaugh needs to develop his touchy feely political inside game if he wants to get back in the NFL. Right now, I think he's just in the right position with his current undeveloped personality traits (U of Michigan). A big part of HC's job is to make sure your players don't get in trouble with the law, and if Harbaugh wants to get back into the NFL he has to figure out how do that at the NFL professional level. Walsh had financial and legal counselors come in and do seminars for his rookies. He had Harry Edwards there as a psychologist consultant for Walsh. I don't think Harbaugh ever valued that kind of stuff. He needs to, if he wants to get back into the NFL. But as a Quarterback Whisperer, he is one, in my opinion. Kyle also fits into that category too as a coach that has developed QB's - and we'll see what he can do with CJ.

Kyles system is Mike Shanahan's version of the WCO. The basic differences between Walsh WCO and the Kyle WCO is the Zone Blocking Schemes. I think Mike Shanahan's contribution to the game is that Zone Blocking, and if you look at zone blocking, it's basically a pass protection scheme geared to the run. I think that was a brilliant innovation - and key because not many coaches even today understand the mechanics behind it. To a certain extent the Seadderall SeaChickens practice it, but Mike is the originator and Kyle can take it to the next level.

Another key is that Kyle grew up inside the 49er culture during the dynasty years, that gives him a leg up from other coaches because he knows Joe, Steve, Rice and the rest on a very personal level. Keep in mind - a lot of these guys are Hall of Fame players, and I think Kyle is setting Hall of Fame standards for every position on his team and he has the tools to do it with his personal relationships with Joe, Steve, Lott, and the rest.

As for drafting FQB talent, Mike Shanahan was never able to draft one, to my knowledge. Elway was already there when he came from the 49ers. I hope Kyle has a better track record in drafting FQB's than his father. As the HC for the 49ers - this is his biggest unknown. Can Kyle draft good players? Can Kyle develop hidden gems from the draft the way guys like Walsh and Bellicheat can? Can Kyle turn average free agents and make them shine? Those will be answered in the next few years. A partial answer was his choice not to use a lot of capital on this years QB class. I agree with you, that it was a very astute move - considering supposedly the 2018 QB class is much stronger. He has a lot of draft picks to play with next year, and if he really wants to make that QB position deep and strong, I wouldn't mind him trading up and using a couple of draft picks to move up and get the QB that can give CJ and the rest of this years QB crew good competition. On top of the additional draft picks we have next year, the cap space is enormous and can be used to get that *one last piece* of the puzzle that will push this franchise into playoff level caliber excellence. This franchise is at the bottom of that barrel, there is no place lower and the only place left to go is up.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Your right let's just keep hoyer lol

The point is that if they can get Cousins, then get Cousins. I'm not counting on any draft being "special" for QBs when we see how often these guys fall flat on their faces.


If Allen again barely completes 56% of his passes and struggles against any halfway decent competition are you going to be psyched about the 49ers using a Top 10 pick on a 100% project?


The next draft is one injury and one guy staying in school from being utterly mediocre when it comes to quarterbacks.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Because you have to be realistic...top end QBs dont pop out in FA they just don't man. I've been on the Kirk bandwagon and hope he's the guy but to just assume he will be there is silly, same with jimmy G and it's not like we're the only team that needs a QB.

I am not sure what this means. If Cousins is available the 49ers will know that before the draft as free agency starts in March.


Or are you under the assumption that they will tank the season believing that Cousins won't be available? In which case I assure you that isn't going to happen. Shanahan isn't going to f**k himself over in future years by putting in players that will harm team cohesiveness and screw up full install of offensive and defensive schemes all for a possible chance at a prospect that has less than a 50% shot of being anything worthwhile.


I think Shanahan is going to approach it with the same mindset as guys like his dad and Holmgren. "Getting a QB in the 1st is nice but I can find a guy later on too." He'll throw his cards down on the table and try to win as many games as possible.





If that puts them out of range of some QB prospects, so be it. With Lynch and Shanahan so focused on building a winning culture, I don't see either embracing a loser mentality, even if the genetically engineered lovechild of Joe Montana and San Marino happens to be in the draft.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Most starting qbs in the league are 1st rd picks...unless your bringing up placeholder crap qbs like hoyer/Glennon. I want a clear path to getting a top end guy....winning 6 games doesn't help with that and sure as hell doesn't get us in the playoffs.

Tom Brady - winner of Super Bowl 51, 49, 39,38, 36: 6th round, pick 199
Peyton Manning - winner of Super Bowl 50,41: 1st round, pick 1
Russel Wilson - Winner of Super Bowl 48: 3rd round, pick 75
Joe Flacco - winner of super bowl 47: 1st round, pick 18
Eli Manning - winner of super bowl 46, 41: 1st round, pick 1
Aaron Rogers - winner of super bowl 45:1st round, pick 24
Drew Brees - winner of super bowl 44: 2nd round, pick 32
Ben Roethlisberger - winner of super bowl 43,40: 1st round, pick 11
Brad Johnson - winner of super bowl 37: 9th round, pick 227 (equivalent to being undrafted free agent today)
Trent Dilfer - winner of super bowl 35: 1st round, pick 6

So out of the 10 guys that have won the most recent super bowls, only 30% were picked in the first round and at the 6th pick position or higher, the rest of them (70%) were picked at the 11 pick positon or even later/lower. My point is that I think there is *more* chances we are able to pick a franchise QB - outside of the top 10 picks than you realize. If we go 8-8 and have some extra draft picks, I think we draft somewhere in the middle of round 1 and we can move up a couple of spots. That gives us ample opportunity (70 %) to acquire a FQB. I think 8-8 is very optimistic. Realistically I think we fall somewhere in the 6-10 category. If we manage to win 10 games and fall out of the middle part of the 1st round it falls to 60%. But at 10 wins - we are playoff probable. Anything can happen when you make the playoffs. 1967, packers win super bowl with a 9-4 record. And more recently there are several teams that got hot in the playoffs and won super bowls with a 10-6 record.