49ers Head Coach Kyle Shanahan Thread

Originally posted by qnnhan7:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Bills original concepts have evolved into many different variations. Walsh used a lot of the air Coryell concepts in the WCO - just turned it from a vertical offense to a more horizontal offense. The long ball air Coryell offense fits better with Harbuagh's personality and the bo shembechler power run concepts. Watching Harbaugh's run offense almost reminds me of Chuck Muncie, but what was missing was the passing talent that Don had.

Virgil Carter's rag arm basically created the WCO as we think about it today. Smartly Walsh knew the straight vertical game wasn't gonna be a viable option. It was at that point he went full on with the dink and dunk pass to set up the run offense. He knew that the horizontal had to be established to get vertical shots.

In my mind, the whole key to Walsh's scheme is the triangle stretch. A great majority of his main concepts are based in the zone breaking triangles.

I guess the great football mystery is does Walsh's offense become what it became if Cook doesn't get hurt in Cincinnati in '70-'71. My gut says his offense would have been much more vertical/Gillman style then the horizontal scheme we all know and love.

Maybe Walsh learned a life lesson with that situation. Better design an offense for the guys with an average arm, because guys with a great arm are rare.

Walsh's system fits with any QB if they are teachable.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Niners816:
Personally I have always believed that Harbaugh did indeed run a WCO. It used WCO verbiage and the passing game was comprised of tried and true passing concepts. WCO has become such a nebulous term and Harbs offense was his idea of a WCO was.

When I think of a Coryell scheme it's all about the digit-system and gash style passing. During Harbs tenure, the only time we really exhibited this style of passing was during the 10 games when Kap took over in '12.

Bills original concepts have evolved into many different variations. Walsh used a lot of the air Coryell concepts in the WCO - just turned it from a vertical offense to a more horizontal offense. The long ball air Coryell offense fits better with Harbuagh's personality and the bo shembechler power run concepts. Watching Harbaugh's run offense almost reminds me of Chuck Muncie, but what was missing was the passing talent that Don had.

There are so many aspects to the WCO that it's hard to pin it down. Saying it's horizontal, as many have, isn't totally accurate, nor is it true that short passes took the place of running. Both of these misconceptions have been uttered by coaches who were not fond of Walsh or his system.

What Harbaugh lacked was the ability to call a game like Walsh, mixing up plays and setting up the D. Many blamed the QBs but I believe it was playcalling more than QBing to blame for the problems they had...but still, they reached the SB so...there is that.

The short passing game replaces a lot of the fullback runs that the traditional run oriented offenses used to run. Nowadays, the fullback position has evolved into a more of a TE/RB combo receiver (Juszczyk and Rathman) are classic examples of the pass replacing the runs. As for the vertical to the horizontal concepts, the Air Coryell/Sid Gillman offense stretched the defense lengthwise with the run and the play action pass. Walsh simply turned that horizontal and used the play action to get more room in between the LB's and the DB's. But the core concepts of the Sid Gillman offense still are in the WCO - specifically the timing concepts.

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2009/04/sid-gillman-father-of-modern-passing.html

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Bills original concepts have evolved into many different variations. Walsh used a lot of the air Coryell concepts in the WCO - just turned it from a vertical offense to a more horizontal offense. The long ball air Coryell offense fits better with Harbuagh's personality and the bo shembechler power run concepts. Watching Harbaugh's run offense almost reminds me of Chuck Muncie, but what was missing was the passing talent that Don had.

Virgil Carter's rag arm basically created the WCO as we think about it today. Smartly Walsh knew the straight vertical game wasn't gonna be a viable option. It was at that point he went full on with the dink and dunk pass to set up the run offense. He knew that the horizontal had to be established to get vertical shots.

In my mind, the whole key to Walsh's scheme is the triangle stretch. A great majority of his main concepts are based in the zone breaking triangles.

I guess the great football mystery is does Walsh's offense become what it became if Cook doesn't get hurt in Cincinnati in '70-'71. My gut says his offense would have been much more vertical/Gillman style then the horizontal scheme we all know and love.

Personally, I thought the key to his offense was pass protection. Prior to Walsh, the O Linemen could not extend their arms and block with their hands. The pass blocking rules changed and O linemen could extend their hands and that gave more time for the QB to deliver the ball to the WR, and to me, that was the key to the WCO. Also, the WR's were freed from the bump and run defensive concepts and the defense were allowed only to bump on the LOS. (or within, I think, 5 yards from the LOS) and that freed up the WR's to catch more passes. I'm still learning the triangle concepts so I can't really comment on those yet, but Walsh was an innovator - and I was hoping Harbaugh would be like Walsh, and personally I think it was Baalke more than Harbaugh that screwed the offense up. AJ Jenkins anyone? As for Kyle, I'm looking forward to his innovations - he quickly learned the pistol-read option with RG3 so he's a quick study and if there is anybody that can come up with ground breaking revolutionary passing concepts, my bet is on Kyle more than Harbaugh.

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
I can't think of a better coach than Kyle to bring back the WCO, in its next generation form. He seems like a total football geek since his childhood days.

I get a sense, underneath that boyish appearance belies a very strict and serious disciplinarian of football. Not gonna give any BS, and certainly not going to take any. Reminded me so much of the younger Mike Shanahan.

I hope so. Al Davis had a knack for hiring young brilliant coaches. Madden, Flores, and Mike Shanahan come to mind. Even back when the Mike Shanahan was a young coach, he was considered one of the more brilliant offensive football coaches in the NFL. If his Son is as good or better than him, a couple of super bowls should be reserved for the 49ers in the near future.

Originally posted by Giedi:
I hope so. Al Davis had a knack for hiring young brilliant coaches. Madden, Flores, and Mike Shanahan come to mind. Even back when the Mike Shanahan was a young coach, he was considered one of the more brilliant offensive football coaches in the NFL. If his Son is as good or better than him, a couple of super bowls should be reserved for the 49ers in the near future.

Yeah, I think Kyle has a lot of his dad's talent in him. I see him being great going forward.

Who uses the WCO the best these days and have the defenses worked it out better today?

Originally posted by Giedi:
The short passing game replaces a lot of the fullback runs that the traditional run oriented offenses used to run. Nowadays, the fullback position has evolved into a more of a TE/RB combo receiver (Juszczyk and Rathman) are classic examples of the pass replacing the runs. As for the vertical to the horizontal concepts, the Air Coryell/Sid Gillman offense stretched the defense lengthwise with the run and the play action pass. Walsh simply turned that horizontal and used the play action to get more room in between the LB's and the DB's. But the core concepts of the Sid Gillman offense still are in the WCO - specifically the timing concepts.

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2009/04/sid-gillman-father-of-modern-passing.html

What I most liked about Walsh's coaching is his willingness to incorporate all types of plays, personnel, and tempos. To me he was the ultimate offensive mind taking any coaches ideas and improving them. On top of that, he understood the psychology of the game better than any coach I can recall. They set up defenses by pushing the defense toward reactions they dictated and then uses those reactions against them as the game played out. I recall a DC saying one key to Walsh is to not react but to have a plan and stick to it...forget about the last play and make a defensive call for the down and distance. Hard to do during a game.

Originally posted by KeepRabbitsOut:
Who uses the WCO the best these days and have the defenses worked it out better today?

I like Reid but I'm not sure he has the lethal calm during a game that Walsh had so...

Originally posted by KeepRabbitsOut:

Who uses the WCO the best these days and have the defenses worked it out better today?

New England. Seifert said in an interview with one of the sports casters said new England is the closest offense to the old original bill Walsh offense, in his opinion.

The defense to the wco is a defense that has very talented linebackers utilizing the zone blitz. Or conversly, just basically play a more nickel type of pass defense. That's why bill drafted Roger Craig to pair with Wendell in our second super bowl and why Blount was such an important part of the Patriot win this last season. It was to counter defenses basically playing pass first defense.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by KeepRabbitsOut:

Who uses the WCO the best these days and have the defenses worked it out better today?

I like Reid but I'm not sure he has the lethal calm during a game that Walsh had so...

If we all specifically talking about offense's that are recognized as WCO I'd throw GB, ATL(under shanny) and KC as the best WCO. I think NE is the best offense but it's classified as a Erhardt-Perkins scheme. So that's a little different animal in nature and verbiage.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:

I'm trying to keep my mindset in more of a realistic perception toward our offense mainly because there will be another team every Sunday that is trying to stop what we are doing and we won't be scoring 30+ points every week.

Just think,
Harbaugh was supposed to be the QB whisperer and that aspect of his resume was a disappointment. Harbaugh was successful because he is great at the KISS method and motivation. Now include some great talent we had on Defense and Jim was always competitive...until he was not.
Tomsula came in and we were all thinking positive in that he was a players' coach and would improve on Harbaugh's stubbornness. That changed the instant players began dropping out. The season was also a wake up call in that we need a smarter coach.
In comes Kelly, the genius breath of fresh air with good explanations during media interviews and a little more transparency that the 49ers went away from at the same time sort of alienating their fanbase. Hopes were high because 49ers fans were desperate to, once again, be the team that is the trailblazer and not the copycat. Unfortunately, lack of offensive talent and Kelly's philosophy was a slap in the face that this can't work in the NFL. Our defense suffered badly.

And now we have Shanahan. We saw what he did in ATL and how his players have career years everywhere he goes. He is bringing back a more simple defense and he is fortunate enough to time it right with us finally reloading the talent. Defense should be much better but do note that our offense lacks a s**tload of talent in the one aspect that is required to score points: passing game. Our #1 WR is a #2 on any other team. Our QB appears to have "gotten it" but way more than questions than answers. Kyle's offense is very complicated.

Think we will do better than the last two years but I think it may take a while to be as efficient on offense as we were with Harbaugh. Just know that we more likely will be scoring 17-23 points than we will be 24-30. Why? Because it is hard to do in the NFL. I will add that Kyle is the first coach we have had in a long time that has a proven successful system. That's the biggest fact to take.

Good post Joe. I agree with almost all but would add a guess on Ws and Kyle's influence on that.. IDK how many wins we have but do think we get a couple more Ws just because of the play callling. So instead of the average # of Ws that most folks are going to guess at, say 5 Ws(Vegas line is 4.5), i would add another 3 Ws to that based on Kyle's playcalling....or 8 Ws. Just my guess...but kyle will make a difference, no doubt.

Well, considering this is the first season in the last 3 years where the talent has been upgraded, I would say 3 more wins than last year simply based on that. Injuries have been horrendous for us the past 2 or 3 years. After that, I will need to see if Kyle's offense is too overwhelming in the beginning for these guys.

Keep the opposing teams offensive points in the lower 20s or lower and we have a great chance to stack up Ws

I think with our front seven, we have a shot at this with several of the opponents.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Sorry for posting the whole article but too many good nuggets in here:

Shanahan confident in 49ers: 'I think we'll be able to surprise some people'
By Matt Maiocco August 07, 2017 6:08 PM

SANTA CLARA – A year ago, Kyle Shanahan was at the controls of one of the most high-powered offenses in NFL history.

He parlayed his success as the Atlanta Falcons offensive coordinator into his new role as the head coach of the 49ers – a team that featured one of the worst offenses in the NFL.

But Shanahan said on "The 49ers Insider Podcast" on NBCSportsBayArea.com that he believes his team could be a lot better than expected. The 49ers are coming off a 2-14 season under Chip Kelly, who was fired after just one season.

"I feel confident with our guys," Shanahan said. "We got some guys who compete. Collectively, we have a smart group of people who can all play together. And I think we'll be able to surprise some people. But the biggest thing that always comes into (play) is injuries."

The 49ers targeted Brian Hoyer as the quarterback. Hoyer has performed well during training camp. And Shanahan is pleased with the improvements at running back and wide receiver.

"We didn't want to do it by going out and investing in all top picks or tons of money to do that," Shanahan said. "You want to build it the right way and add some competition to make your team better overall."

The 49ers added more depth at running back behind Carlos Hyde, who enters the final year of his contract. The team signed Tim Hightower as a free agent, acquired Kapri Bibbs in a trade, drafted Joe Williams in the fourth round, and signed Matt Breida as a priority undrafted rookie.

Hyde has appeared to benefit from the competition while strengthening his hold on the starting job. Shanahan said he would never guarantee a roster spot to anyone, but he made it clear he expects Hyde to have a major role.

"I think he's playing at a very high level right now in practice," Shanahan said.

"He looks good out here. People who can help us, we're not trying to get rid of. And Carlos is a very good back who I believe can help us a lot."

Shanahan said he likes the competition that is going on at any number of positions on the team. The 49ers open the exhibition season on Friday at Kansas City, and battles will continue to take place throughout the roster.

"I feel like you're in a good situation when you're a week into training camp and you have no idea how the final roster is going to be like," Shanahan said. "We're as strong at the running back and receiver positions as any position on our team.

"I've been in plenty of camps where at the end of OTAs, I already knew what it's going to be, unless there were injuries. I can't say that here. And it's a good problem to have."

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/shanahan-confident-49ers-i-think-well-be-able-surprise-some-people

I know I'm late here, but just listened to this podcast and it was fn awesome. Real pumped for this Shanahan/Lynch regime

Originally posted by njninersfan420:

I know I'm late here, but just listened to this podcast and it was fn awesome. Real pumped for this Shanahan/Lynch regime

Great stuff. And he's especially on on this point:

"I feel confident with our guys," Shanahan said. "We got some guys who compete. Collectively, we have a smart group of people who can all play together. And I think we'll be able to surprise some people. But the biggest thing that always comes into (play) is injuries."

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by KeepRabbitsOut:
Who uses the WCO the best these days and have the defenses worked it out better today?

I like Reid but I'm not sure he has the lethal calm during a game that Walsh had so...

If we all specifically talking about offense's that are recognized as WCO I'd throw GB, ATL(under shanny) and KC as the best WCO. I think NE is the best offense but it's classified as a Erhardt-Perkins scheme. So that's a little different animal in nature and verbiage.

I wouldn't argue with you! Personnel and health are so important for any team...GB was absolutely beautiful to watch for a number of years but some really ugly years as well. NE seems to always find a way to create offense and Brady is largely the reason.

Cannot wait to finally see Kyle calling OUR plays. He was a kick in the pants as OC for Cleve, WASH, and ATL. Now, we finally get to see him with our guys. If you are a player, you have to be jazzed by that. Especially after 4 long yrs with Roman, then the disaster of tomsul, and lastly chip. This is not a step up. This is a light yr step up. Going from least capable, least polished least imagination...to the absolute best in all the preceding. Watching a guy who we all have seen succeed eleswhere, end up calling our O...man it doesn't get better than that. We are back...no matter what happens.. Let's just hope no injuries...please. But expect Kyle to call a game that we all are smiling about at end of night.