49ers Head Coach Kyle Shanahan Thread

Originally posted by FredFlintstone:

Originally posted by SkyZer0:

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

Originally posted by SkyZer0:

Originally posted by FredFlintstone:
hella early but we have a top 5 O and a top 5 d, why not us???

what do you mean why not us?

+ Show all quotes
Let's not use a Seahawk/Willowism, please....

answer the question.

why cant we win the NFC with how open it is? None of them stick out

why are you even asking that?

Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:
no way does Kyle run WCO... he may use some BW pass combos, but that's where it stops

Kyle's mojo is based on establisging outside zone > play action > counter off play action

he still runs plenty of west coast staples

Originally posted by SkyZer0:

Originally posted by FredFlintstone:

Originally posted by SkyZer0:

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

Originally posted by SkyZer0:

Originally posted by FredFlintstone:
hella early but we have a top 5 O and a top 5 d, why not us???

what do you mean why not us?

Let's not use a Seahawk/Willowism, please....

+ Show all quotes
answer the question.

why cant we win the NFC with how open it is? None of them stick out

why are you even asking that?

because you asked what does why not us mean

Originally posted by FredFlintstone:

Originally posted by SkyZer0:

Originally posted by FredFlintstone:

Originally posted by SkyZer0:

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

Originally posted by SkyZer0:

Originally posted by FredFlintstone:
hella early but we have a top 5 O and a top 5 d, why not us???

what do you mean why not us?

Let's not use a Seahawk/Willowism, please....

answer the question.

+ Show all quotes
why cant we win the NFC with how open it is? None of them stick out

why are you even asking that?

because you asked what does why not us mean

no, your first post was: why ask that in the first place

Originally posted by FredFlintstone:
hella early but we have a top 5 O and a top 5 d, why not us??

Walsh ran a lot of 2 RB, TE formation. A variety of run and passing plays came out of that formation. What most people know commonly now as 21 ppersonnel. Kyle running most plays out of the same thing, and has added more, including but not limited to shot gun, which Walsh didn't like. The rules are different back in the 80's. Walsh had to worry about qb protect more than today's NFL.

Kyle using the same thing too but more spread out. The running game more different. Though commonly Walsh's offensive linemen generally lighter than the rest of the NFL for more movement and blocking in his run game. Kyle is no different in that regard. Kyle's passing game pretty close to Walsh.

6.2.6

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Walsh ran a lot of 2 RB, TE formation. A variety of run and passing plays came out of that formation. What most people know commonly now as 21 ppersonnel. Kyle running most plays out of the same thing, and has added more, including but not limited to shot gun, which Walsh didn't like. The rules are different back in the 80's. Walsh had to worry about qb protect more than today's NFL.

Kyle using the same thing too but more spread out. The running game more different. Though commonly Walsh's offensive linemen generally lighter than the rest of the NFL for more movement and blocking in his run game. Kyle is no different in that regard. Kyle's passing game pretty close to Walsh.

One thing to note that after 1988, Walsh's running game was barely hitting 4 yard per carry marks. Not sure if it was Craig aging but the run game wasn't that strong. Kyle and his dad's system blows most running games out of the water with "lesser" running backs.

Originally posted by Joecool:

6.2.6

Originally posted by qnnhan7:

Walsh ran a lot of 2 RB, TE formation. A variety of run and passing plays came out of that formation. What most people know commonly now as 21 ppersonnel. Kyle running most plays out of the same thing, and has added more, including but not limited to shot gun, which Walsh didn't like. The rules are different back in the 80's. Walsh had to worry about qb protect more than today's NFL.

Kyle using the same thing too but more spread out. The running game more different. Though commonly Walsh's offensive linemen generally lighter than the rest of the NFL for more movement and blocking in his run game. Kyle is no different in that regard. Kyle's passing game pretty close to Walsh.

One thing to note that after 1988, Walsh's running game was barely hitting 4 yard per carry marks. Not sure if it was Craig aging but the run game wasn't that strong. Kyle and his dad's system blows most running games out of the water with "lesser" running backs.

Yeah, I get the same sense also with the Shanahan running game. It seems a better attacking run game. More invested.

Walsh didn't have to deal with fast as hell LB of today. So his little short passes effectively complimented his running game. Linebackers are so fast now, can't make a living on those short passes anymore.

I think Walsh would very much appreciate the Shanahan run game, and what Kyle is doing off of it.

Originally posted by Joecool:

6.2.6

One thing to note that after 1988, Walsh's running game was barely hitting 4 yard per carry marks. Not sure if it was Craig aging but the run game wasn't that strong. Kyle and his dad's system blows most running games out of the water with "lesser" running backs.

In Walsh's last year the Niners ran for 2500 yards and averaged 4.8 ypc. The Holmgren version started to dip but I'd argue that's more to do with Craig getting older and not really finally finding a suitable replacement until Watters in 1992 under Shanny. We ran for 2300 yards in '92 and '2100 yards in '93. I don't recall those running games stylistically looking much different that Walsh's teams. We still ran a ton out of horizontal stacked (split, far, near) formations. It's didn't really look like what Shanny established in Denver. Our Run game Under Mooch was great and the key reason seemed to be relying more on I formations.

Originally posted by VaBeachNiner:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:

Originally posted by Nastastical:

So good to see the offense that Bill Walsh built back in SF, and taken to the next level by Mike Shanahan in the 90's. And now by 2nd generation Kyle Shanahan.

When I watch the Niners offense, and then watched the other offenses around the league, their offenses look pedestrian. Just like back in the Walsh era, the coordination and crisp execution are there.

Thank you for the being the first to post this

Watching that makes me so happy we no longer are running the Geep Chryst offense

Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:
no way does Kyle run WCO... he may use some BW pass combos, but that's where it stops

Kyle's mojo is based on establisging outside zone > play action > counter off play action

No one has really ran Walsh's offense since Holmgren. He was the closest cut to Bill's offense. The term WCO has come to be blanketed over anyone that was a part of that tree. Kyle's offense is very much an evolution of his dad's offense and Mike's offense has been given that label.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:

no way does Kyle run WCO... he may use some BW pass combos, but that's where it stops

Kyle's mojo is based on establisging outside zone > play action > counter off play action

No one has really ran Walsh's offense since Holmgren. He was the closest cut to Bill's offense. The term WCO has come to be blanketed over anyone that was a part of that tree. Kyle's offense is very much an evolution of his dad's offense and Mike's offense has been given that label.

Well, to be fair when Mike came on Seifert tasked him with running the system already in place.

I see Mike S. as an evolution of Holmgrens which was an evolution of BW.

The basic principles remain, even though the mode of execution is different.

Based on triangle stretches and getting athletes in space, routes tied to footwork and hitting receivers in stride through zone's for maximum RAC

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:
no way does Kyle run WCO... he may use some BW pass combos, but that's where it stops

Kyle's mojo is based on establisging outside zone > play action > counter off play action

No one has really ran Walsh's offense since Holmgren. He was the closest cut to Bill's offense. The term WCO has come to be blanketed over anyone that was a part of that tree. Kyle's offense is very much an evolution of his dad's offense and Mike's offense has been given that label.

Well, to be fair when Mike came on Seifert tasked him with running the system already in place.

I see Mike S. as an evolution of Holmgrens which was an evolution of BW.

The basic principles remain, even though the mode of execution is different.

Based on triangle stretches and getting athletes in space, routes tied to footwork and hitting receivers in stride through zone's for maximum RAC

Shanny (When I say Shanny I mean MIke) did a great job (He is actually my favorite playcaller not named Bill Walsh) and I actually think he was more aggressive that Holmgren was. I also think Mike took everything he liked about our offense and when he got the gig in Den he added even more of his personality. The run game while greatly effective in his tenure in SF was even moreso in Den. In 1992-94 i really don't recall us running the ball the way he would eventually do in denver. We would show Strong and Weak I occasionally in '92-'94 but Mike made that almost his base run formations in Den. Under Shanny from '92-'94 we would still run a ton of stuff from split, Near and Far and still featured the Lombardi sweep as our go to run along with the good ole Power O. I always wondered when MIke decided to make his run game entirely the Alex Gibbs ZBS. I see Kyle's offense as a continuation of MIke's Denver flavor.

I think the WCO was so great that it has basically just become good football and therefore most successful schemes takes portions of it. I guess i've kinda taken a practice for saying BIll's offense was the most pure WCO and everyone that has followed has taken and made it their own in some form or fashion. Not gonna lie, its really fun seeing kyle attack defenses with the highest % of 21 personnel and the highest % of undercenter snaps

"Kyle Shanahan does not run the freaking West Coast Offense.

Don't take it from me — take it from Shanahan himself. He educated a local reporter about a year ago. The reporter had requested a one-on-one interview with Shanahan, who rarely grants one on ones with locals. Before turning down this poor reporter, Shanahan asked what the topic of the interview would be.

The reporter said it was simple. He wanted to write a story praising Shanahan for connecting the 49ers to their roots by bringing back the West Coast Offense. They hadn't used it in decades despite popularizing it during the 1980s under head coach Bill Walsh, the inventor of the scheme. This reporter saw Shanahan as a disciple of Walsh.

"I don't run the freaking West Coast Offense," Shanahan explained, except he didn't use the word, "freaking." He used a different word we can't print.

Shanahan could have been more diplomatic, but he didn't lie. He corrected the biggest misconception about him and the current 49ers offense.

Shanahan has zero connection to Walsh. Shanahan runs his father's offense. And his father, Mike Shanahan, also has zero connection to Walsh. Never coached for him. Mike Shanahan sees himself as an innovator like Walsh, who created his own offense. And Kyle Shanahan sees himself as the leader of the second generation of his father's disciples.

Mike Shanahan began developing his offense during the mid-1980s when he was the Denver Broncos' offensive coordinator. In 1992, he took his offense to the 49ers and became their offensive coordinator. He stayed three seasons and won a Super Bowl in 1995. He was very good. And his son, Kyle, following his footsteps, may turn out equally as good.

After the Super Bowl, Mike Shanahan left the 49ers and became the head coach of the Broncos. When he left the 49ers, the late Dwight Clark told my dad, "Nothing against Mike, but he didn't do what we do. We need to get back to our roots."

Clark was the 49ers' vice president/director of football operations in 1995. He and the front office hired Marc Trestman to replace Shanahan, because Trestman wanted to learn and run the classic West Coast Offense. He even worked with Walsh in 1996 when Walsh was a consultant for the team.

I am not putting down the Shanahans, merely trying to clarify what the West Coast Offense is and is not. The West Coast Offense has specific features and philosophies, even though the scheme has evolved throughout the years to incorporate the I-formation and the shotgun.

At its heart, the West Coast Offense is a conservative, ball-control offense. Walsh called a series of short and intermediate passes which he considered "extended handoffs." He used these to maintain possession, take time off the clock and set up running plays for the second half. Of course, Walsh called the occasional deep pass, but, for the most part, it was a conservative offense.

The Shanahan Offense is completely opposite. It's an aggressive, big-play offense which features running plays that set up deep play-action passes.

In basketball terms, the Shanahans are similar to Don Nelson, who wanted his players to shoot lots of low-percentage 3-pointers. Walsh was more like Phil Jackson, who wanted his players to shoot high-percentage layups and mid-range jumpers.

I'm not saying one style is better than the other. I merely am describing the difference.

The West Coast Offense uses a "gap" blocking scheme, in which offensive linemen block in different directions. Some block at an angle and hit defensive linemen from the side. Other offensive linemen pull, meaning they run in the backfield from one side of the formation all the way to the other during the play. Gap blocking looks like a bunch of crisscrosses.

The Shanahan Offense primarily uses "zone" blocking, which looks like a conga line — five offensive linemen and one tight end running horizontally along the line of scrimmage in unison. No crisscrossing.

The West Coast Offense features a diverse running game with dozens of different types of draws — a run which first looks like a pass. The opposite of play-action, which is a pass that first looks like a run. The draw is integral to this scheme.

The Shanahan Offense features a simple running game with two main plays — inside zone and outside zone. The draw is not integral to this scheme.

The West Coast Offense rolls the quarterback out of the pocket so he can make short, quick throws. Think the legendary Sprint Right Option. The quarterback takes the snap, immediately sprints a few steps to his right and fires a pass to a wide receiver running a shallow route toward the sideline. This fast-developing play is a staple of the West Coast Offense.

The Shanahan Offense rolls the quarterback out of the pocket so he can make long throws downfield. The offensive line typically blocks for an outside zone run, the quarterback fakes the handoff, runs a naked bootleg away from the offensive line, takes 13 or 14 steps and throws deep. This slow-developing play is a staple of the Shanahan Offense.

The goal of the West Coast Offense is to consistently pick up at least four yards per play and reach "third and manageable" — between third and four and third and six. When Walsh installed his third-down offense every year during training camp, he always started with third and four to third and six.

The goal of the Shanahan Offense is to create big plays and avoid third down entirely. Meaning the quarterback throws beyond the first-down marker as much as possible. When it's second and eight, the Shanahan Offense aims to reach first and 10, not third and four.

Walsh developed the West Coast Offense in Cincinnati when he was the Bengals' offensive coordinator. In that sense, you could call it the Midwest Offense.

Mike Shanahan developed his scheme in Denver under head coach Dan Reeves, who believed in running up the gut to set up deep play-action passes — classic smash-mouth football. Shanahan tweaked Reeves' philosophy by replacing the smash-mouth aspect with finesse outside-zone runs. In that sense, you could call Shanahan's scheme the Rocky Mountain Offense.

Just don't call it the freaking West Coast Offense, please."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pressdemocrat.com/sports/9363613-181/grant-cohn-defining-kyle-shanahans%3fview=AMP



so according to this article neither Mike nor Kyle consider themselves disciples of Walsh. Rather Mike considers himself the inventor of his own system and Kyle considers himself the second generation of his fathers offense. Even Dwight Clark wanted to go back to the WCO after Mike left and thats why Marc Trestman was brought in as OC.

Well if Kyle says it's not the WCO, then it's not the WCO. I had it all wrong, but when you think about it, what are the common traits of the WCO?
- ball control passing
- timing of routes to QB dropback; QB footwork synced with progressions
- triangle stretches in route combinations
- WCO verbiage in playbook
- getting playmakers in space, on the move, for yards after catch

Kyle's offense checks many of these boxes, some more definitively than others, but if he says it's not, then it's not. Pretty sure he knows the offense he's running.

As long as Kyle racks up the points and makes opposing defenses look silly, he can call it whatever he wants.