Originally posted by Goatie:
All true. But our run game was not effective. No opening lanes in the zone. Zip. Seatoots run defense was awesomely effective. They stacked the box and smothered us. But Kyle should have adjusted. He didn't. There was no plan B or C or D. I was very disappointed with this and it only is topped but the butter fingers of guys who should catch 90% of the balls but dropped 100% ie Pettis and Goodwin. Bourne wasn't much better. But the buck stops with Kyle for the loss. I am sure he will learn from it but Pettis and Goodwin are lost causes.
The only way you adjust to a loaded box is by passing until the defense is forced out if it. If Sanders and Kittle had been out there, they would not have been able to keep doing it. It was less about strategy and more about personnel. When the other team sells out to stop the run and your OL can't pass block and your receivers can't catch, you're screwed.
Dammit injuries piss me the hell off!!!! Seattle got the watered down version of the 8-0 9ers, this game would've been much different if it were the 3rd or 4th game of the season. Such b******t!!!
Originally posted by DJamhour:
The problem is I'm not saying it's all on him but think he couldve done things a little differently. and not just hindsight , felt they should have been done live. 4th&2 you went for it and didn't trust your kicker for that 49 yarder. End of regulation you had no choice but to kick that 47 yarder or throw a Hail Mary. 4th and inches for a 47 yarder, I was almost sure we were going to qb sneak(very high success rate) here's where I felt he should have been aggressive, but then he went super aggressive on our final Possession with 1:50 left and took no time, mentality should have been win or at worse tie without giving them a chance.
I know thing would have been different if he made the kick but knowing he didn't he still could have not called 3 passes in a row when we couldn't protect all night or catch.
Not blaming everything on Kyle , cause jimmy OL and wrs all had blame and their defense had their best game of the year and we had lots of injuries but think we could learn from this and move on. I'd rather learn from games now than in the playoffs when it's do or die
Well, this was the first time kyle really seemed to be outcoached. He didn't look nearly as sharp as he always is. There are lots of reasons, our OTs, our lack of dependable WRs, kyle foregoing the quick short passes for longer developing ones (as PHX says a la Martz)...but really I wonder if he knew aforehand he had but one WR, and when sanders went down...there was not much more to do, with kittle out also.
To me that wasn't the real Kyle out there, it was somebody else from another planet. Hey, that happens. But it happens much more commonly when you the HC, know what your team cannot do and you are expected to come up with an answer when there is none. The fact we played them even , when they had all the advantages talent wise, is remarkable. But kyle knew his team was knee capped and there wasn't a whole lot he could do.. The D tried to win it for us, but even they aren't THAT good.
Getting talent back will help but with loss of Blair, Gould with a Quad injury, kittle out, sanders questionable ...other WRs not worth much...man that is one tough row to hoe for our master schemer / HC. He has to come up with something as we get AZ again in 5 days.
I suppose throwing short quick hitters, getting the best two OTs in, going back to ZBS, getting our TEs more involved, Dwelley and whichever, Toilolo or Celek....what more can he do? From here on out, the D has to continue to lead us, but kyle will have to get something going with our RBs, both carrying the ball and on routes, and same for Au jus. But that's about it.
The D has had a chance to play a run around Qb, so that helps some. Overall tho, this is one tough task for our OC/ HC.
On the bright side, even tho we were hugely outmatched on talent, with Gould in there, we win. Think on that one awhile.
All true. But our run game was not effective. No opening lanes in the zone. Zip. Seatoots run defense was awesomely effective. They stacked the box and smothered us. But Kyle should have adjusted. He didn't. There was no plan B or C or D. I was very disappointed with this and it only is topped but the butter fingers of guys who should catch 90% of the balls but dropped 100% ie Pettis and Goodwin. Bourne wasn't much better. But the buck stops with Kyle for the loss. I am sure he will learn from it but Pettis and Goodwin are lost causes.
The only way you adjust to a loaded box is by passing until the defense is forced out if it. If Sanders and Kittle had been out there, they would not have been able to keep doing it. It was less about strategy and more about personnel. When the other team sells out to stop the run and your OL can't pass block and your receivers can't catch, you're screwed.
This, and I hope we get Kittle and/or Sanders back because Peterson is going to want to make up for his game a couple weeks ago, and Deebo can't be the only reliable target.
All true. But our run game was not effective. No opening lanes in the zone. Zip. Seatoots run defense was awesomely effective. They stacked the box and smothered us. But Kyle should have adjusted. He didn't. There was no plan B or C or D. I was very disappointed with this and it only is topped but the butter fingers of guys who should catch 90% of the balls but dropped 100% ie Pettis and Goodwin. Bourne wasn't much better. But the buck stops with Kyle for the loss. I am sure he will learn from it but Pettis and Goodwin are lost causes.
The only way you adjust to a loaded box is by passing until the defense is forced out if it. If Sanders and Kittle had been out there, they would not have been able to keep doing it. It was less about strategy and more about personnel. When the other team sells out to stop the run and your OL can't pass block and your receivers can't catch, you're screwed.
I think the way you scheme out of it without Sanders and Kittle is to go 5 wide and work the middle. Just basically Tom Brady it 5 yards down the field every throw on quick timing routes. They did some of that ... but I thought it would have been a good time to put James in there and go double slot with him and Samuel.
its almost like once we found out we could not run the ball. and sanders went out. kyle had no answers.
Kyle has answers, we were in position to win. It's the execution that was terrible. Our tackles got beat to death, WR couldn't catch (9 DROPPED PASSES YESTERDAY) and prolly the worst kick I've ever seen in my f**king life lol high school included
its almost like once we found out we could not run the ball. and sanders went out. kyle had no answers.
Kyle has answers, we were in position to win. It's the execution that was terrible. Our tackles got beat to death, WR couldn't catch (9 DROPPED PASSES YESTERDAY) and prolly the worst kick I've ever seen in my f**king life lol high school included
I wasn't mad at our kicker, he got us into ot but I wouldnt have minded if we went for it instead of that kick. Not having J Wilson active hurt us.
Even though I liked KS' logic on why he didnt bleed the clock (because 1min is the same as 1:40 to RW), I still think we should've ran the ball atleast once in the end to bleed the clock a little, kinda reminded me of the SB with Atl. Our wr's were too inconsistent to trust.
Originally posted by cciowa:
its almost like once we found out we could not run the ball. and sanders went out. kyle had no answers.
Kyle has answers, we were in position to win. It's the execution that was terrible. Our tackles got beat to death, WR couldn't catch (9 DROPPED PASSES YESTERDAY) and prolly the worst kick I've ever seen in my f**king life lol high school included
I wasn't mad at our kicker, he got us into ot but I wouldnt have minded if we went for it instead of that kick. Not having J Wilson active hurt us.
Even though I liked KS' logic on why he didnt bleed the clock (because 1min is the same as 1:40 to RW), I still think we should've ran the ball atleast once in the end to bleed the clock a little, kinda reminded me of the SB with Atl. Our wr's were too inconsistent to trust.
Kyle had answers but he had the wrong answers. This year we only have two reliable receivers. Last year we had only 1. When Kittle went out we went back to where we were last year with only 1 receiver. Then he got hurt. To me is shows Kyle was caught out with 2nd and 3rd and 4th string WRs and was giving them 1st stringer plays. It was trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Pettis simply lacks the finesse to work in the higher levels of the play book. Bourne is just too inconsistent and Goodwin's head is clearly not in it and lacks enough prep in the scheme. This problem lies at coaching. These three should have been coached better and if they still cant make their assignments then they should be gone. It is coaching and management that should have righted the WR ship before it got to this stage. Pettis has not been good this year or last but for a couple of rare bright spots. Bourne is not improving but still too inconsistent. His first quarter was great yesterday but then went south. This is on coaching on either getting them up to speed on consistency or getting rid of them.
"I agree with what you just said," Shanahan responded. "He's had a number of opportunities. I'm one of the guys that believed in him the most. That's why he's here. He's had his opportunities. The more he doesn't take advantage of his opportunities, the less opportunities he gets.
"He did get a couple last night because of injury and I didn't think he made them. We'll see how this week goes. Dante has the ability, but we're waiting for him to pick it up, and have the consistency, and take advantage of some of these opportunities he's gotten."
Originally posted by SkyZer0:
"I agree with what you just said," Shanahan responded. "He's had a number of opportunities. I'm one of the guys that believed in him the most. That's why he's here. He's had his opportunities. The more he doesn't take advantage of his opportunities, the less opportunities he gets.
"He did get a couple last night because of injury and I didn't think he made them. We'll see how this week goes. Dante has the ability, but we're waiting for him to pick it up, and have the consistency, and take advantage of some of these opportunities he's gotten."
Pettis is Meh. Shanahan is more patient then I am.
Originally posted by Goatie:
All true. But our run game was not effective. No opening lanes in the zone. Zip. Seatoots run defense was awesomely effective. They stacked the box and smothered us. But Kyle should have adjusted. He didn't. There was no plan B or C or D. I was very disappointed with this and it only is topped but the butter fingers of guys who should catch 90% of the balls but dropped 100% ie Pettis and Goodwin. Bourne wasn't much better. But the buck stops with Kyle for the loss. I am sure he will learn from it but Pettis and Goodwin are lost causes.
The only way you adjust to a loaded box is by passing until the defense is forced out if it. If Sanders and Kittle had been out there, they would not have been able to keep doing it. It was less about strategy and more about personnel. When the other team sells out to stop the run and your OL can't pass block and your receivers can't catch, you're screwed.
I don't know if I agree with this completely. I've see us run this year against loaded boxes. I think the game plan was to take advantage of their secondary with Sanders as the primary attack piece. It seems to me they didn't go back to what they were attempting to do with 12 or 22 personnel after they lost both tackles earlier this season. The runs were not OZ for the most part - a staple. Given our success at a myriad of OZ, it seemed like that wasn't even in the playbook. When we did run, it was almost exclusively inside - with undersized Breida on a bad ankle - right into the teeth of the defense. I think there was so much confidence in the film study, and so much confidence in Staley and McG returning with Juice, there seemed to be an almost "you-can't-stop-us-attitude" with the 21 look and a lot of (possibly over confidence) in the OL's ability along with Juice blocking. Kittle's loss as a blocker in the run game was also underestimated.
When they lost Sanders, it just seemed Kyle had nothing left, there was no plan to do anything else really but run inside and passes 9 - 12 yards pass patters, slants to Deebo here and there. Most of the passes required Jimmy to hold because after Sanders it was clear to the Hawks the "vets" in Pettis, Goodwin and Bourne wouldn't regularly get open. This was established on film already and when Carrol knew Kittle wasn't playing, that was it. He didn't need to double anyone outside of Sanders. Once they knocked him out of the game, the only game plane we had was doomed to produce.
Phoenix I'm honestly shocked Kyle doesn't have contingency game plans where he can switch approaches and feature a different approach/attack. We attempted a couple of screens, but this all goes back to the effectiveness of the OL. As NC has said, and you and I have chatted about, the OL just wasn't moving well and this was *before* Richburg came out for a series. The bookend tackles seemed to upset all the blocking on the line. Steelers did the same, the Browns tried, the Panthers started out that way but Kyle has a lot more experience diagnosing and defeating Rivera than he does Carroll.
Against Seattle? I guess it's hard to change your approach when your OL can't do much to help. I don't know what everyone really learns from this.
Asking Bourne, Pettis and Goodwin to catch more is futile to me. We know who they are and maybe they get a little better but I don't expect much.
Asking Deebo to become more consistent is an option, but the good-looking rook is still learning and Wes needs to make them all spend time with the jugs machine.
Hoping Sanders and Kittle come back from injury is an option, but hoping they heal really isn't a "plan."
Could the assessment of the OL been too lenient? As someone pointed out, what the hell were practices like against Bosa and Ford if Clowney was wrecking havoc?
I know it's just one game and I guess if we lost with protection and with a versatile game plan, even with drops, I guess I could be okay with that versus what I saw last night.
I have more questions for Kyle than answers. I think we all do.
Your thoughts man.
The buck stops entirely with Kyle and Lynch. They are giving scrub WRs too much time and are wasting roster spots.
The buck stops entirely with Kyle and Lynch. They are giving scrub WRs too much time and are wasting roster spots.