49ers Head Coach Kyle Shanahan Thread

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by TheGore49er:
Imagine being a 49er fan and complaining that your HC is a control freak.

So stupid. Crocker is the biggest 49er homer out there.

Imagine being a 49er fan and NOT thinking the Shanahan's are control freaks.

Imagine thinking it's a bad thing or imagine over thinking it enough to where the qb has only one option to throw to lol

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:
My exact point. We saw JG not have the best game and Kyle saying he had a nice game. He did what was asked. We heard JG say he's just doing what he's told.

So with a more mobile QB, like with JG to start 2018, if we see Trey staying in there eating it, we'll have the first sign Kyle might be trying to control him too much.

I'm not too concerned but wanted to bring it here for others to keep an eye on especially early.

Lol seriously

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by TheGore49er:
Imagine being a 49er fan and complaining that your HC is a control freak.

So stupid. Crocker is the biggest 49er homer out there.

Imagine being a 49er fan and NOT thinking the Shanahan's are control freaks.

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Lol seriously

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

LOL. Even if you three were to read through it all again and listen to the podcast, Crock, Peacock, RGIII, JTS, Middlekauff and myself, there is zero chance you come anywhere near the intended point and how it might apply going forward.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Lol seriously

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

LOL. Even if you three were to read through it all again and listen to the podcast, Crock, Peacock, RGIII, JTS, Middlekauff and myself, there is zero chance you come anywhere near the intended point and how it might apply going forward.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Lol seriously

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

LOL. Even if you three were to read through it all again and listen to the podcast, Crock, Peacock, RGIII, JTS, Middlekauff and myself, there is zero chance you come anywhere near the intended point and how it might apply going forward.

Well, Maybe you're not doing them justice

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Well, Maybe you're not doing them justice

Dammit. I'm not doing my job!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Here we go.

Breaking news: The Shanahan's are control freaks. Their QB's are just right-armed puppets.

What does that mean when you say Kyle controls his QBs? Meaning the QB has reads and progressions to adhere to for a play? That's every NFL passing play.

Here's the pod: 11:57-17:04 (there's a transcript if you'd rather read it)

Ok I think I get what they're saying. The ability to go off script will always be there for Lance. The aspect that needs development is the pocket passing. So that's what Kyle will be drilling into Lance's head. If Kyle teaches, "look at progression 1, then 2, then bail out and go off script", then guess what Lance will resort to if he isn't comfortable with his first reads.

If we see Lance stay in the pocket despite it breaking down all around him, then we'll know he's being tied down by Kyle instructing him to do so. Steve Young wanted Kap to tie his legs together so that he'd be forced to make reads without bailing out too quickly - "exhaust the play".

When it comes to freedom within the structure of a rhythm pass play, there is no such thing as freedom to do whatever. If the play is to be executed with timing between the dropback and the depth of the routes, there is a specific order to work the reads.

This is it. Trey will never develop if he takes off and runs everytime his first read isn't open. He needs to learn when it is appropriate to make a play outside the structure of the play design.

But what does that have to do with the actual topic of Kyle also might wanting to restrict him too much too early and the long term effects that could have on his develop and confidence to take off when he should?

Ok so we are just referring to Lance having the freedom to abandon his reads and take off. We are not taking about sticking to a specific order when going through progressions.

There is always a balance with this when working with a mobile QB. As Lance gains experience, the hope is that he finds this balance on his own. For now, he needs to be drilled about going through his reads in the pocket because that is what he needs to work on, and that is what makes a QB consistent - the ability to execute a pass play in rhythm.

If Kyle wanted a QB who wouldn't cause concerns about abandoning reads to freelance, then he never would have drafted a QB that has the ability to perform out of structure.

One of the points Crocker made was that he felt Kyle may have restricted JG too much, to the point he didn't take deep shots, lost confided and made throws to the primaries no matter what b/c of being grilled by Kyle to trust it. Kyle wanting to BE the QB...so to speak. So much so he wants to see JG in another system that may encourage a bit more freedom (unless he's already broken).

I don't know if that is true or not.

But if it is, an early sign with Trey might be that in situations where Trey clearly should abandon, he stays in there and gets hit/sacked/negative play. That pre season game where he was sacked 5 times might have been a bit of him just trying to trust the play call no matter what.

I heard Crocker say that and I think he's just speculating. To suggest that Kyle restricted Jimmy I find funny because I think Kyle 'made' Jimmy more than restricted him. Perhaps a passing offense that uses more spread formations could fit Jimmy better. I think Jimmy's lower body mechanics is what restricted Jimmy from taking more (being better at) deep throws.

Yeah. He is speculating but we did see a successful JG playing off script with confidence when he first arrived. Then we saw it start to shift quickly upon trying to play within script with Kyle's full oversight.

So while he is speculating, he said if Jimmy goes to another team and regains that 2017 form and Trey goes from having this mindset (see below) to far more "restricted," Crocker might be on to something here. Kyle wants to be the QB here.

Trey on his own game: 1:45 mark

Trey Lance talks #HOUvsSF prep. pic.twitter.com/vFN72gjGRp

— San Francisco 49ers (@49ers) December 31, 2021

"I appreciate when I can play how I play and be off schedule."

^ I imagine that was RGIII's mentality too coming in to the league.

He's also speculating based off two different NFL QB's who have played for the Shanahan's.

Anyway, it's just something to watch for and let's see how things evolve.

So the proof will be in Jimmy's next team? If he starts running around making off schedule plays then we will have proof that Kyle restricted him. I'd be very surprised if this happened, but we'll see.

Maybe. To Crock's point, if he starts attempting deeper balls, playing more off schedule, regains confidence, stops pressing primary targets, etc.

More importantly, is what happens here.

This is total hs. The off schedule stuff stopped when Jimmy came back from a torn ACL. Kyle has called deep passes throughout Jimmy's time here, including the SB and last season. He looks like total whenever he had to throw it beyond 20 yards, especially outside the numbers. No way a play caller is telling his QB not to hit the 2nd or 3rd read and take a sack if the primary isn't open. You're basing your whole argument on speculation that has no real evidence to back it up.

So what you're saying is Kyle dictated his play calling based on Garoppolo's perceived physical abilities? Right or wrong?

Any play caller worth his weight in gold will create gameplans that feature a players skillsets while simultaneously limiting the exposure of that player's weaknesses. Did Shanahan completely stop calling plays that were outside of Jimmy's comfort zone? No, he didn't. They just weren't a major feature of the offense and for good reason.

Sorry, this isn't about Jimmy Garoppolo. We're in the Kyle Shanahan thread because the topic was how much control he exerts over his QB's...maybe too much, and the signs to look to if it happens again.

Kyle Shanahan, like Mike Shanahan, being a control freak isn't exactly a stretch reality here. The issue is if it leads to a new QB being so tight he starts making a lot of mistakes and gets away from what initially made him successful.

Sorry but when you are talking about Shanahan and how he controls the QB, you cannot just ignore a QB that has played under him longer than any other because it isn't convenient for you.

Also, what I posted goes for any and every player on offense and not just the QB.

LOL. Try going a tad deeper than JG if you're capable. Crock simply used a few examples of JG AS to why he sees it that way...plus RGII and JTS. There are other comments that might lend to it as well. Other examples like Hero noted.

To Hero's point though, it could be for good reason. But the flip side can be just the opposite if it's too restrictive. Too much.

If you don't subscribe to that speculation, fine. But he isn't just making stuff up out of thin air. I've seen it too and have noted it in the past.

I don't subscribe to it because of what I have seen. I have seen RGIII, Jimmy and Ryan all throw to their 4th read on the progression. I have also seen Trey throw to the deeper route where Jimmy favored the shorter route on a high/low read. We have seen Kyle favor Trey's athleticism and use it as part of his gameplan. I watched RGIII run around killing teams with his legs until he messed up his knee. We seen the same with Jimmy. RGIII relied too much on his athleticism and never developed into a pocket passer and so he blames his shortcomings on Shanahan. I watched Matt Ryan go from being an above average QB to the league MVP back to mediocrity just as fast as Kyle came and left ATL.

Kyle, like any other OC/playcaller worth his weight in gold is going to get the best out of his players. No. Kyle is not going to let his players run around playing backyard football everydown. This is the NFL, not high school. Players need to learn how to play within the structure of the offense and QB's need to learn to be pocket passers.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by TheGore49er:
Imagine being a 49er fan and complaining that your HC is a control freak.

So stupid. Crocker is the biggest 49er homer out there.

Imagine being a 49er fan and NOT thinking the Shanahan's are control freaks.

Who's not a control freak as a HC in the NFL? I mean you don't get to that point by not having that in your DNA.

Originally posted by NCommand:
One of the points Crocker made was that he felt Kyle may have restricted JG too much, to the point he didn't take deep shots, lost confided and made throws to the primaries no matter what b/c of being grilled by Kyle to trust it. Kyle wanting to BE the QB...so to speak. So much so he wants to see JG in another system that may encourage a bit more freedom (unless he's already broken).

I don't know if that is true or not.

But if it is, an early sign of that "control freak" with Trey might be in situations where Trey clearly should abandon, but he stays in there and gets hit/sacked/negative play. That pre season game where he was sacked 5 times might have been a bit of him just trying to trust the play call no matter what as instructed.

Lol yeah I mean he's never allowed to throw deep on those PA plays…there's never a route being run more than 10 yards and FOR SURE kyle hates explosive plays.

my god people are trying to over think everything including podcasters that need to have a show 5 days a week in mid July.

Originally posted by thl408:
I heard Crocker say that and I think he's just speculating. To suggest that Kyle restricted Jimmy I find funny because I think Kyle 'made' Jimmy more than restricted him. Perhaps a passing offense that uses more spread formations could fit Jimmy better. I think Jimmy's lower body mechanics is what restricted Jimmy from taking more (being better at) deep throws.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Maybe. To Crock's point, if he starts attempting deeper balls, playing more off schedule, regains confidence, stops pressing primary targets, etc.

To your point, perhaps if he plays in a spread offense, this happens more organically because he'd have more control. Not the OC.

More importantly, is what happens here.

Jimmy playing off schedule lol. Dude we saw him try to do this and he s**t the bed constantly. Jimmy is a game manager who needs a good scheme and that primary read.

I mean is there nothing scarier then watching Jimmy running outside of the pocket looking downfield to make a play? Usually something bad happens

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Maybe. To Crock's point, if he starts attempting deeper balls, playing more off schedule, regains confidence, stops pressing primary targets, etc.

To your point, perhaps if he plays in a spread offense, this happens more organically because he'd have more control. Not the OC.

More importantly, is what happens here.

Jimmy playing off schedule lol. Dude we saw him try to do this and he s**t the bed constantly. Jimmy is a game manager who needs a good scheme and that primary read.

I mean is there nothing scarier then watching Jimmy running outside of the pocket looking downfield to make a play? Usually something bad happens

Oh look, another who completely misses the point.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Lol yeah I mean he's never allowed to throw deep on those PA plays…there's never a route being run more than 10 yards and FOR SURE kyle hates explosive plays.

my god people are trying to over think everything including podcasters that need to have a show 5 days a week in mid July.

That was actually one of Crock's examples. Maybe you'll grasp his concept better if you listen vs. read.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Here we go.

Breaking news: The Shanahan's are control freaks. Their QB's are just right-armed puppets.

What does that mean when you say Kyle controls his QBs? Meaning the QB has reads and progressions to adhere to for a play? That's every NFL passing play.

Here's the pod: 11:57-17:04 (there's a transcript if you'd rather read it)

Ok I think I get what they're saying. The ability to go off script will always be there for Lance. The aspect that needs development is the pocket passing. So that's what Kyle will be drilling into Lance's head. If Kyle teaches, "look at progression 1, then 2, then bail out and go off script", then guess what Lance will resort to if he isn't comfortable with his first reads.

If we see Lance stay in the pocket despite it breaking down all around him, then we'll know he's being tied down by Kyle instructing him to do so. Steve Young wanted Kap to tie his legs together so that he'd be forced to make reads without bailing out too quickly - "exhaust the play".

When it comes to freedom within the structure of a rhythm pass play, there is no such thing as freedom to do whatever. If the play is to be executed with timing between the dropback and the depth of the routes, there is a specific order to work the reads.

This is it. Trey will never develop if he takes off and runs everytime his first read isn't open. He needs to learn when it is appropriate to make a play outside the structure of the play design.

But what does that have to do with the actual topic of Kyle also might wanting to restrict him too much too early and the long term effects that could have on his develop and confidence to take off when he should?

Ok so we are just referring to Lance having the freedom to abandon his reads and take off. We are not taking about sticking to a specific order when going through progressions.

There is always a balance with this when working with a mobile QB. As Lance gains experience, the hope is that he finds this balance on his own. For now, he needs to be drilled about going through his reads in the pocket because that is what he needs to work on, and that is what makes a QB consistent - the ability to execute a pass play in rhythm.

If Kyle wanted a QB who wouldn't cause concerns about abandoning reads to freelance, then he never would have drafted a QB that has the ability to perform out of structure.

One of the points Crocker made was that he felt Kyle may have restricted JG too much, to the point he didn't take deep shots, lost confided and made throws to the primaries no matter what b/c of being grilled by Kyle to trust it. Kyle wanting to BE the QB...so to speak. So much so he wants to see JG in another system that may encourage a bit more freedom (unless he's already broken).

I don't know if that is true or not.

But if it is, an early sign with Trey might be that in situations where Trey clearly should abandon, he stays in there and gets hit/sacked/negative play. That pre season game where he was sacked 5 times might have been a bit of him just trying to trust the play call no matter what.

I heard Crocker say that and I think he's just speculating. To suggest that Kyle restricted Jimmy I find funny because I think Kyle 'made' Jimmy more than restricted him. Perhaps a passing offense that uses more spread formations could fit Jimmy better. I think Jimmy's lower body mechanics is what restricted Jimmy from taking more (being better at) deep throws.

Yeah. He is speculating but we did see a successful JG playing off script with confidence when he first arrived. Then we saw it start to shift quickly upon trying to play within script with Kyle's full oversight.

So while he is speculating, he said if Jimmy goes to another team and regains that 2017 form and Trey goes from having this mindset (see below) to far more "restricted," Crocker might be on to something here. Kyle wants to be the QB here.

Trey on his own game: 1:45 mark

Trey Lance talks #HOUvsSF prep. pic.twitter.com/vFN72gjGRp

— San Francisco 49ers (@49ers) December 31, 2021

"I appreciate when I can play how I play and be off schedule."

^ I imagine that was RGIII's mentality too coming in to the league.

He's also speculating based off two different NFL QB's who have played for the Shanahan's.

Anyway, it's just something to watch for and let's see how things evolve.

So the proof will be in Jimmy's next team? If he starts running around making off schedule plays then we will have proof that Kyle restricted him. I'd be very surprised if this happened, but we'll see.

Maybe. To Crock's point, if he starts attempting deeper balls, playing more off schedule, regains confidence, stops pressing primary targets, etc.

More importantly, is what happens here.

This is total hs. The off schedule stuff stopped when Jimmy came back from a torn ACL. Kyle has called deep passes throughout Jimmy's time here, including the SB and last season. He looks like total whenever he had to throw it beyond 20 yards, especially outside the numbers. No way a play caller is telling his QB not to hit the 2nd or 3rd read and take a sack if the primary isn't open. You're basing your whole argument on speculation that has no real evidence to back it up.

So what you're saying is Kyle dictated his play calling based on Garoppolo's perceived physical abilities? Right or wrong?

Any play caller worth his weight in gold will create gameplans that feature a players skillsets while simultaneously limiting the exposure of that player's weaknesses. Did Shanahan completely stop calling plays that were outside of Jimmy's comfort zone? No, he didn't. They just weren't a major feature of the offense and for good reason.

Sorry, this isn't about Jimmy Garoppolo. We're in the Kyle Shanahan thread because the topic was how much control he exerts over his QB's...maybe too much, and the signs to look to if it happens again.

Kyle Shanahan, like Mike Shanahan, being a control freak isn't exactly a stretch reality here. The issue is if it leads to a new QB being so tight he starts making a lot of mistakes and gets away from what initially made him successful.

Sorry but when you are talking about Shanahan and how he controls the QB, you cannot just ignore a QB that has played under him longer than any other because it isn't convenient for you.

Also, what I posted goes for any and every player on offense and not just the QB.

LOL. Try going a tad deeper than JG if you're capable. Crock simply used a few examples of JG AS to why he sees it that way...plus RGII and JTS. There are other comments that might lend to it as well. Other examples like Hero noted.

To Hero's point though, it could be for good reason. But the flip side can be just the opposite if it's too restrictive. Too much.

If you don't subscribe to that speculation, fine. But he isn't just making stuff up out of thin air. I've seen it too and have noted it in the past.

I don't subscribe to it because of what I have seen. I have seen RGIII, Jimmy and Ryan all throw to their 4th read on the progression. I have also seen Trey throw to the deeper route where Jimmy favored the shorter route on a high/low read. We have seen Kyle favor Trey's athleticism and use it as part of his gameplan. I watched RGIII run around killing teams with his legs until he messed up his knee. We seen the same with Jimmy. RGIII relied too much on his athleticism and never developed into a pocket passer and so he blames his shortcomings on Shanahan. I watched Matt Ryan go from being an above average QB to the league MVP back to mediocrity just as fast as Kyle came and left ATL.

Kyle, like any other OC/playcaller worth his weight in gold is going to get the best out of his players. No. Kyle is not going to let his players run around playing backyard football everydown. This is the NFL, not high school. Players need to learn how to play within the structure of the offense and QB's need to learn to be pocket passers.

Finally, a quality response! Appreciate this. TY.

Even the example thl used, that if we see a known athletic Trey who's mindset is to bail to make a play , staying in the pocket and eating sacks, that could be a sign of that control freak nature. But to hero's point, it would be with a good purpose, to drill home he needs to first learn to play from within the pocket. Later, you can loosen up some and let him ad lib more. But to start, you want him to exhaust the pocket.

So while there are some clear examples of his control freak nature including NFL QB's noting it and him being the real QB here, you also demonstrated flexibility and adaptation which is very true. That counters that.

thl brought up Jimmy's mechanics. This is an area he's said many times, he doesn't really care about or focus on. If he did, that would be more evidence but it's not there.