49ers Head Coach Kyle Shanahan Thread

How did RGIII and Matt Ryan fair after they played in a new system? Did they not reach their peak, thus far, under Kyle Shanahan?

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
It's hard because it sounds like BS as it doesn't make any sense, I don't give hacks clicks or listens

you name drop like it confirms anything. It doesn't, if you can't explain crocks bs maybe it's something you shouldn't be repeating

That's just an ignorant response. Carry on.

Originally posted by YACBros85:
How did RGIII and Matt Ryan fair after they played in a new system? Did they not reach their peak, thus far, under Kyle Shanahan?

Kind of flipped huh? RGIII started out hot with an offense Kyle tailored to him. Remember, Kyle didn't want another QB like that (Kaepernick) because he said everyone would have to adapt to the QB...not the offense. Then RGIII got worse as film got out there, injuries and perhaps, Kyle trying to reign him in more to his actual offense.

Garoppolo started out hot and then instantly plateued and never got better...at anything.

Ryan started out OK, had that "trust me" sit down with Kyle and became an MVP.

Which route with Trey go?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
It's hard because it sounds like BS as it doesn't make any sense, I don't give hacks clicks or listens

you name drop like it confirms anything. It doesn't, if you can't explain crocks bs maybe it's something you shouldn't be repeating

That's just an ignorant response. Carry on.

What's ignorant is parroting something you can't explain

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
It's hard because it sounds like BS as it doesn't make any sense, I don't give hacks clicks or listens

you name drop like it confirms anything. It doesn't, if you can't explain crocks bs maybe it's something you shouldn't be repeating

That's just an ignorant response. Carry on.

What's ignorant is parroting something you can't explain

Derp.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
How did RGIII and Matt Ryan fair after they played in a new system? Did they not reach their peak, thus far, under Kyle Shanahan?

Kind of flipped huh? RGIII started out hot with an offense Kyle tailored to him. Then got worse as film got out there, injuries and perhaps, Kyle trying to reign him in more. Garoppolo started out hot and then instantly plateued. Ryan started out OK, had that sit down with "trust me" Ke and became an MVP.

Which route with Trey go?

I don't see it that way. RGIII became inaffective when he tore his ACL and LCL, same with Jimmy and his ACL. RGIII never adapted to being a pocket passer and struggled to improve that part of his game. Jimmy fared better because of his quick release and accuracy over the middle. But because of losing, essentially, two seasons worth of work, it has slowed his progress as a passer also. I have watched more of Jimmy's career than I have of RGII's so I can confidently say that Jimmy's poor footwork and slow set up when changing throwing platforms is a result of not trusting his knee. Jimmy is not nimble on his feet and very rarely avoids pressure. Anytime he does avoid pressure, it is a wow play only because we aren't used to seeing that from him.

The Matt Ryan situation is just pure speculation. There is no evidence to back up the notion that Matt Ryan would have have regressed back to his mean regardless if Kyle stayed there in ATL with him. What we do know is that Matt Ryan was an above average QB before Shanahan got there, became MVP his second year in the system and than regressed back to his mean after Shanahan left.

There is no reason to believe that Trey won't become and continue to be a top 5 QB under Shanahan as long as he can stay healthy. More than anything, it is up to the QB as much as it is up to the OC to keep a head of the curve when it comes to defenses figuring out and adjusting to tendencies.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Are we talking about Eric Crocker who never played QB in the NFL and only lasted 1 season as a CB in the NFL and has never played or coached under Kyle Shanahan? That Eric Crocker?

Yes. And he's not a Jimmy fan at all either. This wasn't about Jimmy but Kyle. He just used a few examples of Jimmy to back up his theory.

So why should we care what this guy has to say about our team, the QB position and Kyle Shanahan?

^ Because according to RGIII and JTS, when it's too much, it wrecks your confidence, you lose what made you you, and once you show a weakness or lack of success, Kyle never goes back there by controlling the play calling. This is where he used examples of the deep ball, using spread concepts vs. drilling in the primary read, etc.

I posted the podcast for you and time stamped it. It's only a few minutes. Maybe you'd see his point better if it wasn't NC noting it.

Maybe it's the whole notion of "control freak" and how that comes with a negative connotation. Head coaches are controls freaks by nature, and I know we are talking specifically about the passing offense. A head coach that also calls the passing plays will want things executed his way.

To have a consistent passing offense, a QB has to execute his reads from the pocket. That has been shown to result in the best way to pass the ball on a down to down basis. If the plan is to make Lance a good pocket QB, then Lance needs to play from it.

Was Walsh a control freak when he wanted Steve Young to stay in the pocket and exhaust all his options before scrambling? And Young has spoken about how Kap, a mobile QB, should "tie his legs together" in order to force himself to play from the pocket (go through progressions).

There's a long term plan in place to make Lance a complete QB and it'll be a balancing act for Kyle and Lance - do what it takes to win while also developing pockets skills along the way.

The notion that Kyle restricted Jimmy, I'm not buying it. But if Jimmy goes to another team and starts running around making plays then I'd admit I'm wrong.

Again, it's not the notion of being a control freak to where it's a positive (e.g. making a mobile QB stay in the pocket until the play is exhausted).

It's to the point where Middlekauff noted (wants his QB's robotic)...RGIII...JTS. To where QB's are getting blasted by him (JG/Ryan), lose confidence, feel more restricted and comfortable in other schemes (spread vs. WCO), etc. To where they don't feel they have any/much control in the offense. Lose their individuality and what made them high draft picks to begin with.

Now, I'm not saying most of it wouldn't be justified. What I'm saying is this will be the first time Kyle is personally HEAVILY invested in a raw raw 21 year old QB. IF he truly can be too much of a control freak, this is the most likely scenario where we'll see it most.

And if Crock's theory does come to fruition, we should start to see some early signs of it.

As to to his other point about Jimmy, he's saying if he goes to a different system like a spread system where HE chooses who to throw to, starts throwing deeper more, plays a bit more off script like he did in 2017, that'll be more evidence to his claim. Not that Jimmy is going to run around like Russell Wilson without an OL. LOL

Ok we'll wait until Jimmy is in a different system to see. I doubt he'll be any better in a different system without the YAC monsters that the 49ers have but there's only one way to find out.

I actually want Kyle to teach Lance pocket skills and if it requires taking some lumps and having awkward reps along the way, if there's a payoff, it'll be worth it.

RG3 is also well known as a diva who was completely uncoachable.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Are we talking about Eric Crocker who never played QB in the NFL and only lasted 1 season as a CB in the NFL and has never played or coached under Kyle Shanahan? That Eric Crocker?

Yes. And he's not a Jimmy fan at all either. This wasn't about Jimmy but Kyle. He just used a few examples of Jimmy to back up his theory.

So why should we care what this guy has to say about our team, the QB position and Kyle Shanahan?

^ Because according to RGIII and JTS, when it's too much, it wrecks your confidence, you lose what made you you, and once you show a weakness or lack of success, Kyle never goes back there by controlling the play calling. This is where he used examples of the deep ball, using spread concepts vs. drilling in the primary read, etc.

I posted the podcast for you and time stamped it. It's only a few minutes. Maybe you'd see his point better if it wasn't NC noting it.

Maybe it's the whole notion of "control freak" and how that comes with a negative connotation. Head coaches are controls freaks by nature, and I know we are talking specifically about the passing offense. A head coach that also calls the passing plays will want things executed his way.

To have a consistent passing offense, a QB has to execute his reads from the pocket. That has been shown to result in the best way to pass the ball on a down to down basis. If the plan is to make Lance a good pocket QB, then Lance needs to play from it.

Was Walsh a control freak when he wanted Steve Young to stay in the pocket and exhaust all his options before scrambling? And Young has spoken about how Kap, a mobile QB, should "tie his legs together" in order to force himself to play from the pocket (go through progressions).

There's a long term plan in place to make Lance a complete QB and it'll be a balancing act for Kyle and Lance - do what it takes to win while also developing pockets skills along the way.

The notion that Kyle restricted Jimmy, I'm not buying it. But if Jimmy goes to another team and starts running around making plays then I'd admit I'm wrong.

Again, it's not the notion of being a control freak to where it's a positive (e.g. making a mobile QB stay in the pocket until the play is exhausted).

It's to the point where Middlekauff noted (wants his QB's robotic)...RGIII...JTS. To where QB's are getting blasted by him (JG/Ryan), lose confidence, feel more restricted and comfortable in other schemes (spread vs. WCO), etc. To where they don't feel they have any/much control in the offense. Lose their individuality and what made them high draft picks to begin with.

Now, I'm not saying most of it wouldn't be justified. What I'm saying is this will be the first time Kyle is personally HEAVILY invested in a raw raw 21 year old QB. IF he truly can be too much of a control freak, this is the most likely scenario where we'll see it most.

And if Crock's theory does come to fruition, we should start to see some early signs of it.

As to to his other point about Jimmy, he's saying if he goes to a different system like a spread system where HE chooses who to throw to, starts throwing deeper more, plays a bit more off script like he did in 2017, that'll be more evidence to his claim. Not that Jimmy is going to run around like Russell Wilson without an OL. LOL

Ok we'll wait until Jimmy is in a different system to see. I doubt he'll be any better in a different system without the YAC monsters that the 49ers have but there's only one way to find out.

I actually want Kyle to teach Lance pocket skills and if it requires taking some lumps and having awkward reps along the way, if there's a payoff, it'll be worth it.

Absolutely. That would certainly be the good part of that control freak side (so to speak).

FTR, I don't expect much change in JG also. It's harder to unlearn things as an old dog. I always wondered why JT O'Sullivan loved Jimmy's base and mechanics. I felt they were a hindrance at times. That's over my head, I guess.

Back to Kyle, it's just something to keep an eye on. I'm not too concerned. But I'm alerted to it now more.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
How did RGIII and Matt Ryan fair after they played in a new system? Did they not reach their peak, thus far, under Kyle Shanahan?

Kind of flipped huh? RGIII started out hot with an offense Kyle tailored to him. Then got worse as film got out there, injuries and perhaps, Kyle trying to reign him in more. Garoppolo started out hot and then instantly plateued. Ryan started out OK, had that sit down with "trust me" Ke and became an MVP.

Which route with Trey go?

I don't see it that way. RGIII became inaffective when he tore his ACL and LCL, same with Jimmy and his ACL. RGIII never adapted to being a pocket passer and struggled to improve that part of his game. Jimmy fared better because of his quick release and accuracy over the middle. But because of losing, essentially, two seasons worth of work, it has slowed his progress as a passer also. I have watched more of Jimmy's career than I have of RGII's so I can confidently say that Jimmy's poor footwork and slow set up when changing throwing platforms is a result of not trusting his knee. Jimmy is not nimble on his feet and very rarely avoids pressure. Anytime he does avoid pressure, it is a wow play only because we aren't used to seeing that from him.

The Matt Ryan situation is just pure speculation. There is no evidence to back up the notion that Matt Ryan would have have regressed back to his mean regardless if Kyle stayed there in ATL with him. What we do know is that Matt Ryan was an above average QB before Shanahan got there, became MVP his second year in the system and than regressed back to his mean after Shanahan left.

There is no reason to believe that Trey won't become and continue to be a top 5 QB under Shanahan as long as he can stay healthy. More than anything, it is up to the QB as much as it is up to the OC to keep a head of the curve when it comes to defenses figuring out and adjusting to tendencies.

That's cool. No issues here.

So now that Kyle is a HC (not an OC), and there's going to be massive pressure on both, you don't have any concerns about Kyle becoming too much of a control freak with a raw Trey to the point that it might start working against him? That other side that was referenced?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
How did RGIII and Matt Ryan fair after they played in a new system? Did they not reach their peak, thus far, under Kyle Shanahan?

Kind of flipped huh? RGIII started out hot with an offense Kyle tailored to him. Then got worse as film got out there, injuries and perhaps, Kyle trying to reign him in more. Garoppolo started out hot and then instantly plateued. Ryan started out OK, had that sit down with "trust me" Ke and became an MVP.

Which route with Trey go?

I don't see it that way. RGIII became inaffective when he tore his ACL and LCL, same with Jimmy and his ACL. RGIII never adapted to being a pocket passer and struggled to improve that part of his game. Jimmy fared better because of his quick release and accuracy over the middle. But because of losing, essentially, two seasons worth of work, it has slowed his progress as a passer also. I have watched more of Jimmy's career than I have of RGII's so I can confidently say that Jimmy's poor footwork and slow set up when changing throwing platforms is a result of not trusting his knee. Jimmy is not nimble on his feet and very rarely avoids pressure. Anytime he does avoid pressure, it is a wow play only because we aren't used to seeing that from him.

The Matt Ryan situation is just pure speculation. There is no evidence to back up the notion that Matt Ryan would have have regressed back to his mean regardless if Kyle stayed there in ATL with him. What we do know is that Matt Ryan was an above average QB before Shanahan got there, became MVP his second year in the system and than regressed back to his mean after Shanahan left.

There is no reason to believe that Trey won't become and continue to be a top 5 QB under Shanahan as long as he can stay healthy. More than anything, it is up to the QB as much as it is up to the OC to keep a head of the curve when it comes to defenses figuring out and adjusting to tendencies.

That's cool. No issues here.

So now that Kyle is a HC (not an OC), and there's going to be massive pressure on both, you don't have any concerns about Kyle becoming too much of a control freak with a raw Trey to the point that it might start working against him? That other side that was referenced?

I have no doubt that Kyle is going to bring out the best in Trey. It will be Trey's job to evolve his game to keep a head of his tendencies and work toward turning his weaknesses into strengths. While it is all on Kyle, it is not all on Kyle. This is Kyle's hand picked FQB so in a sense it is all on Kyle. But its not all on Kyle for Trey to succeed and sustain success as the QB needs to take responsibility for his own shortcomings and work hard to overcome them.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
How did RGIII and Matt Ryan fair after they played in a new system? Did they not reach their peak, thus far, under Kyle Shanahan?

Kind of flipped huh? RGIII started out hot with an offense Kyle tailored to him. Then got worse as film got out there, injuries and perhaps, Kyle trying to reign him in more. Garoppolo started out hot and then instantly plateued. Ryan started out OK, had that sit down with "trust me" Ke and became an MVP.

Which route with Trey go?

I don't see it that way. RGIII became inaffective when he tore his ACL and LCL, same with Jimmy and his ACL. RGIII never adapted to being a pocket passer and struggled to improve that part of his game. Jimmy fared better because of his quick release and accuracy over the middle. But because of losing, essentially, two seasons worth of work, it has slowed his progress as a passer also. I have watched more of Jimmy's career than I have of RGII's so I can confidently say that Jimmy's poor footwork and slow set up when changing throwing platforms is a result of not trusting his knee. Jimmy is not nimble on his feet and very rarely avoids pressure. Anytime he does avoid pressure, it is a wow play only because we aren't used to seeing that from him.

The Matt Ryan situation is just pure speculation. There is no evidence to back up the notion that Matt Ryan would have have regressed back to his mean regardless if Kyle stayed there in ATL with him. What we do know is that Matt Ryan was an above average QB before Shanahan got there, became MVP his second year in the system and than regressed back to his mean after Shanahan left.

There is no reason to believe that Trey won't become and continue to be a top 5 QB under Shanahan as long as he can stay healthy. More than anything, it is up to the QB as much as it is up to the OC to keep a head of the curve when it comes to defenses figuring out and adjusting to tendencies.

That's cool. No issues here.

So now that Kyle is a HC (not an OC), and there's going to be massive pressure on both, you don't have any concerns about Kyle becoming too much of a control freak with a raw Trey to the point that it might start working against him? That other side that was referenced?

I have no doubt that Kyle is going to bring out the best in Trey. It will be Trey's job to evolve his game to keep a head of his tendencies and work toward turning his weaknesses into strengths. While it is all on Kyle, it is not all on Kyle. This is Kyle's hand picked FQB so in a sense it is all on Kyle. But its not all on Kyle for Trey to succeed and sustain success as the QB needs to take responsibility for his own shortcomings and work hard to overcome them.

I love this take. I'm very much leaning this way too. No doubt he's also learned from RGIII and from Garoppolo too. Kyle does absolutely adapt so even if he does find he's handcuffing a young QB who could benefit from lightening up on the reigns, he's likely to listen if Trey approaches him. I feel Garoppolo might have done that leading up to the Bears game last year (less blind PA and more receiving options).

BTW, appreciate the constructive debate. Refreshing!

Smart to practice in Colorado the week before the Mexico City game in order to get players used to thinner air at higher elevation.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Now, as to the main reason I brought this topic here, Trey is the first hand picked QB he personally has ever taken in the 1st round. As Hero noted via Middlekauff, he almost wants his QB's to be robotic.

There is going to be so much pressure on Kyle for Trey to succeed, could we see an even more "control freak" approach; maybe, overboard? That is my one concern.

And if so, what would be the early signs?

To a certain extent, having Kyle being in more of a control position than the QB - is emphasizing Kyle's wonderful play calling instincts. I don't see that as a negative. The QB is going to have to earn Kyle's respect before Kyle will allow him to ad-lib too much out there. There will be plays where the QB can ad-lib, like designed scrambles, and moving pockets. It's in these areas that Trey can gain Kyle's respect as a good audible play caller himself. At some point, if Trey can get Kyle's respect, as Montana did Walsh after 1981, you will see the reigns loosened. Kyle has to feel comfortable that Trey knows both the strategy level and the tactical level - to almost be an offensive coordinator on the field (Like Brady was for Bellicheat) to loosen the reigns, so to speak.

Jimmy, to a certain extent, knew Kyle's offense adequately by mid last year such that Kyle was willing to change up and go five wide, shotgun, quick pass. I think that happened because Jimmy got Kyle's confidence that he knew Kyle's offense and would benefit from some loosening of the reigns. Trey has to get Kyles confidence, but once that is done, Trey will be in total control on the field come game day - and Kyle will possibly, at that point, concede OC duties to Anthony Lynn (or whoever is Kyle's assistant at that point).

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Now, as to the main reason I brought this topic here, Trey is the first hand picked QB he personally has ever taken in the 1st round. As Hero noted via Middlekauff, he almost wants his QB's to be robotic.

There is going to be so much pressure on Kyle for Trey to succeed, could we see an even more "control freak" approach; maybe, overboard? That is my one concern.

And if so, what would be the early signs?

To a certain extent, having Kyle being in more of a control position than the QB - is emphasizing Kyle's wonderful play calling instincts. I don't see that as a negative. The QB is going to have to earn Kyle's respect before Kyle will allow him to ad-lib too much out there. There will be plays where the QB can ad-lib, like designed scrambles, and moving pockets. It's in these areas that Trey can gain Kyle's respect as a good audible play caller himself. At some point, if Trey can get Kyle's respect, as Montana did Walsh after 1981, you will see the reigns loosened. Kyle has to feel comfortable that Trey knows both the strategy level and the tactical level - to almost be an offensive coordinator on the field (Like Brady was for Bellicheat) to loosen the reigns, so to speak.

Jimmy, to a certain extent, knew Kyle's offense adequately by mid last year such that Kyle was willing to change up and go five wide, shotgun, quick pass. I think that happened because Jimmy got Kyle's confidence that he knew Kyle's offense and would benefit from some loosening of the reigns. Trey has to get Kyles confidence, but once that is done, Trey will be in total control on the field come game day - and Kyle will possibly, at that point, concede OC duties to Anthony Lynn (or whoever is Kyle's assistant at that point).

Yeah, not about the play calling itself. That'll be a natural progression. But more the pressure, the grinding, the robotic details, the reprimanding, lack of balance, burnout factor, etc. Plus the players own desire. So it got contentious with RGIII because he wanted to run and be a play maker. Trey has that same instinct/mindset and he loves that (his words) so Kyle is going to reel him in.

I'm not too worried but you could see a path where this could get pretty frustrating for both men. It's going to take some time, no doubt. You can see why RGII and JTS said those things. It just wasn't going to fit/work out.

I think Trey's upbringing is going to be a huge factor in it working. Kyle is just going to have to chill out some. They both could be great for each other.