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Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Its obvious that the 49ers need to infuse the Offensive Line with some talent. Anybody looking at Trents age and knows the positon he plays - clearly there is a need there.
Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Its obvious that the 49ers need to infuse the Offensive Line with some talent. Anybody looking at Trents age and knows the positon he plays - clearly there is a need there.
Look the reality is they aren't gonna get a blue chip tackle replacement for Trent until 2024. You aren't getting some elite tackle with pick 98 in all likelihood.
5th in pass block efficiency. 6th fewest sacks. 10th fewest qb hits. It isn't as dire as the narrative wants it to be.
I'm all for adding talent but it's not the only spot that needs it. Secondary needs it more IMO. Literally don't have a free safety or even a guy who can realistically play it under contract.
Originally posted by CharlieSheen:
Winning buys more time like Andy in Philly, but if you keep coming up short with no QB people start losing hope. It becomes a toxic environment. Philly fans will tell you it was just time to part ways with Andy.
Purdy looked very promising but he has to show more before we say Kyle found his guy.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by NCommand:what.. what a cop out. you know that is some sorry s**t posting there.. absurd claims but doesn't need to provide any proof ..thats just weaksauce
Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
You need to show how exactly how the scheme is causing these injuries more frequently than other schemes. Otherwise all you have is a hypothesis
No I don't. None of Kyle's protégés run his system the same way. Even their philosophy is different. You don't need to look anywhere past what's in front of your face here. Or don't.
Explain to me how it's luck when it's been a recurring and consistent theme all 6 years? If it was luck, we'd easily have regressed back to the mean by now. In fact the AGL research shows you outlier teams usually bounce back to their norm or mean the very next year.
So explain to me the luck angle.
but that is every NC post
NC, what is it about Kyle's scheme/operation/philosophy that makes it more injury prone for the players? I'll list some things so you can either use them, or perhaps it sparks a reason that I didn't list:
- amount of run plays called
- variation of run plays (blocking schemes)
- high amount of playaction
- high amount of presnap motion
- high amount of QB under center (compared to other teams)
- WRs often aligned in a reduced split (near the OT/TE)
- high amount of throws over the middle
- high amount of 21 personnel (using a FB)
- not enough 11 personnel (compared to other teams)
- practices are too hard
- practices are too easy (I listed both because I don't know how his practices compares to other teams)
- poor nutrition in the cafeteria (no idea how either of us can definitively claim either way on this)
I'll take a, "idk it just is", answer too.
Physicality. Like Fangio's old scheme eating through the front 7. We just are more run centric than any other team and that physicality catches up over time; and to the teams we just played (what, 0-11 the next week after playing us). Then to pass protection, it's hard to be run centric and then shift gears and pass protect esp. on PA and longer developing plays. IIRC, our average time to throw is 3.64s (that's a long time to hold). Throw in all the added miles on pre snap motion, blocking on the move, mismatches to run certain sets, it tends to put some on islands. Throw in the mental aspect...so much IQ goes into each play, guys running against the grain, etc. Smaller more agile against bigger, more physical DL...I know we moved away from that more this year for that reason. Just some thoughts typing out loud. Many more had been laid out in the injury thread over the years by many others. The cumulative wear and tear.
It's pretty moot though. The scheme isn't changing. So we just need to work around it and make sure we're 3 deep in every position minus FB. Like NY always says, "It is what it is..." I'm just adding, "...so make sure you're prepared for it annually." --- always carry 3 QB's, 4 TE's, 5 RB's, 10 OL, etc.
Just to clarify, I say the same thing about offenses that rely on running QB's. It's going to catch up eventually and this was the year every one got hurt.
The 49ers have ranked top five in rushing attempts twice in Kyle's tenure (2019, 2021). I don't know if there were more injuries on offense during those seasons.
I listed things that are somewhat unique to Kyle's offensive scheme, even though multiple NFL teams do some combination of these things so it's not truly unique, just some characteristics of Kyle's scheme off the top of my head.
"it's hard to be run centric and then shift gears and pass protect". All NFL teams do this. Why is this a reason to suspect that it creates more injuries?
"so much IQ goes into each play". Asking players to think more causes more injuries? wat?
I think some players are simply built to not get injured. Laken Tomlinson never missed a game for the 49ers. He became a Jet and didn't miss a single game for them this season. Brendl and McG didn't miss a game this season, but McG has missed games in the past. There is no one single answer to why the 49ers have been getting more injured than ALL other teams. To chalk it up as the 49ers' scheme being the culprit is too convenient.
FTFY
I've said about 100 times in here, scheme is not THE issue but AN issue when looking across the entire volume of AGL over the past 6 years. You can dismiss that or choose your level of degree (high or low). You can see the stark difference under the Harbaugh regime but that broke too in those schemes at the very end with their high volume of snaps.
Here's are the end results again:
Historical AGL Ranks: Lower = Healthiest
2008 - 6th
2009 - 23rd
2010 - 4th
2011 - 8th (NFCCG)
2012 - 1st (Superbowl)
2013 - 23rd (NFCCG)
2014 - 26th
2015 - 26th
2016 - 24th
2017 - 23rd
2018 - 29th
2019 - 27th (Superbowl)
2020 - 32nd
2021 - 29th (NFCCG)
2022 - Pending April data (4 QB's)(NFCCG)
Top 2, top 5, top 7 in rush volume annually? Nobody has run more than us especially over the 6 years at the physicality at which we did it. That breaks the opposition but it also breaks your own team over time too.
The switching gears comment is more playing to guys strengths and what they were brought in to do...run block. Then to switch gears to play to their weakness, pass protection seems to be where most of their injuries come from.
The IQ comment is more around the football mantra that he who hesitates, gets injured. Playing in an on-the-move cerebral scheme 'might' lead to those hesitations where guys get injured too, not in the right places at the right times, missing assignments leading to getting washed over, etc.
So based on your assessment, we draft more injury prone players than any other team? Do you think these players are drafted to fit the scheme?
As to your last line, isn't chalking everything up to "luck" the same concept? The difference here is there is concrete evidence of a very very consistent pattern YOY for 6+ years. That would seem to eliminate the "luck" factor. So much so, it's easy to predict year 7. You don't need predictive modeling for that.
Originally posted by Hysterikal:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by GoreGoreGore:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Kyle Shanahan on Trent Williams: "I'd be really surprised if Trent wasn't fired up in a few weeks"
Oh great. This is going to become another Alex Mack situation, huh? LOL
I don't see how it is. Mack was not the same player anymore and was pretty banged up by the end of his career.
Trent looks like he can still play at an elite level for a couple more years and isn't in constant pain.
Oh, I just meant where Trent is waiting to decide his future and then they get caught with their pants down when he retires days before the season starts. Just the fact he's thinking about it should prompt the FO to start planning now...and no, Colton McKivitz is not the answer. LOL
Its obvious that the 49ers need to infuse the Offensive Line with some talent. Anybody looking at Trents age and knows the positon he plays - clearly there is a need there.
Clearly it's not.
How many draft picks have gone to the offensive line in previous drafts? Seems like it's 2 a year. Obviously they have tried any blank can see that
Originally posted by Hysterikal:
I like this guy
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Hysterikal:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by GoreGoreGore:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Kyle Shanahan on Trent Williams: "I'd be really surprised if Trent wasn't fired up in a few weeks"
Oh great. This is going to become another Alex Mack situation, huh? LOL
I don't see how it is. Mack was not the same player anymore and was pretty banged up by the end of his career.
Trent looks like he can still play at an elite level for a couple more years and isn't in constant pain.
Oh, I just meant where Trent is waiting to decide his future and then they get caught with their pants down when he retires days before the season starts. Just the fact he's thinking about it should prompt the FO to start planning now...and no, Colton McKivitz is not the answer. LOL
Its obvious that the 49ers need to infuse the Offensive Line with some talent. Anybody looking at Trents age and knows the positon he plays - clearly there is a need there.
Clearly it's not.
How many draft picks have gone to the offensive line in previous drafts? Seems like it's 2 a year. Obviously they have tried any blank can see that
Like with RB, it's not how many you draft in the 3rd round. It's the standard. That's why they gave up and went and got CMC. And Trent. How many did they develop with all those picks? 1? Banks? Unless you think MM is a well developed first rounder.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Hysterikal:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by GoreGoreGore:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Kyle Shanahan on Trent Williams: "I'd be really surprised if Trent wasn't fired up in a few weeks"
Oh great. This is going to become another Alex Mack situation, huh? LOL
I don't see how it is. Mack was not the same player anymore and was pretty banged up by the end of his career.
Trent looks like he can still play at an elite level for a couple more years and isn't in constant pain.
Oh, I just meant where Trent is waiting to decide his future and then they get caught with their pants down when he retires days before the season starts. Just the fact he's thinking about it should prompt the FO to start planning now...and no, Colton McKivitz is not the answer. LOL
Its obvious that the 49ers need to infuse the Offensive Line with some talent. Anybody looking at Trents age and knows the positon he plays - clearly there is a need there.
Clearly it's not.
How many draft picks have gone to the offensive line in previous drafts? Seems like it's 2 a year. Obviously they have tried any blank can see that
Like with RB, it's not how many you draft in the 3rd round. It's the standard. That's why they gave up and went and got CMC. And Trent. How many did they develop with all those picks? 1? Banks? Unless you think MM is a well developed first rounder.
Originally posted by Hysterikal:
Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Its obvious that the 49ers need to infuse the Offensive Line with some talent. Anybody looking at Trents age and knows the positon he plays - clearly there is a need there.
Look the reality is they aren't gonna get a blue chip tackle replacement for Trent until 2024. You aren't getting some elite tackle with pick 98 in all likelihood.
5th in pass block efficiency. 6th fewest sacks. 10th fewest qb hits. It isn't as dire as the narrative wants it to be.
I'm all for adding talent but it's not the only spot that needs it. Secondary needs it more IMO. Literally don't have a free safety or even a guy who can realistically play it under contract.
I like this guy
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Fans in Philly turned on Reid only when he started doing erratic stuff, like making a career OL coach his defensive coordinator.
Originally posted by thl408:
Are we are talking Kyle's offensive scheme or defense too? Because if it's just offense, which I've been focusing on when you mention "Kyle's scheme", then that AGL list should be tailored to just offensive players. I'm not asking you to do that, just that the list is not relevant to what you and I have been discussing about Kyle's scheme. I was hoping that was clear when I listed a bunch of offensive characteristics in the post above - we're talking offensive scheme.
I just can't get on board with the bolded about how thinking more results in more injuries. I can't prove you wrong though.
I agree with you that there is no one single answer. But I have not seen evidence that it's the offensive scheme that promotes more injury. I don't know what to call this type of logic you are using - "People that breathe oxygen will die". Whatever the term is, I feel like that's the logic being applied by saying, "Players in Kyle's scheme are more likely to get injured". It's looking at the result, then pointing to some reason that is related, but can't be proven to play a role.
This might surprise you, but Kyle's scheme isn't some unorthodox style of offense. The most unique thing about Kyle's scheme is the players he's using to execute it. Sure he lines up players in different positions, but then now we're talking about how Deebo in the backfield running to the flat, or CMC running a slant from the slot promotes more injuries.
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Originally posted by Hysterikal:
Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Its obvious that the 49ers need to infuse the Offensive Line with some talent. Anybody looking at Trents age and knows the positon he plays - clearly there is a need there.
Look the reality is they aren't gonna get a blue chip tackle replacement for Trent until 2024. You aren't getting some elite tackle with pick 98 in all likelihood.
5th in pass block efficiency. 6th fewest sacks. 10th fewest qb hits. It isn't as dire as the narrative wants it to be.
I'm all for adding talent but it's not the only spot that needs it. Secondary needs it more IMO. Literally don't have a free safety or even a guy who can realistically play it under contract.
I like this guy
Would like to resign Ward and Moseley, get another FS into the pipeline via the draft and add another CB either in FA or draft .
Originally posted by 9ers4eva:The Bermuda triangle is the cause to all the injuries. Just take a look at all these numbers
Originally posted by thl408:
Are we are talking Kyle's offensive scheme or defense too? Because if it's just offense, which I've been focusing on when you mention "Kyle's scheme", then that AGL list should be tailored to just offensive players. I'm not asking you to do that, just that the list is not relevant to what you and I have been discussing about Kyle's scheme. I was hoping that was clear when I listed a bunch of offensive characteristics in the post above - we're talking offensive scheme.
I just can't get on board with the bolded about how thinking more results in more injuries. I can't prove you wrong though.
I agree with you that there is no one single answer. But I have not seen evidence that it's the offensive scheme that promotes more injury. I don't know what to call this type of logic you are using - "People that breathe oxygen will die". Whatever the term is, I feel like that's the logic being applied by saying, "Players in Kyle's scheme are more likely to get injured". It's looking at the result, then pointing to some reason that is related, but can't be proven to play a role.
This might surprise you, but Kyle's scheme isn't some unorthodox style of offense. The most unique thing about Kyle's scheme is the players he's using to execute it. Sure he lines up players in different positions, but then now we're talking about how Deebo in the backfield running to the flat, or CMC running a slant from the slot promotes more injuries.
It's the Bermuda Triangle conundrum
"Boats disappeared so it has to be the Bermuda Triangle"
"How do you know?"
"Because the boats disappeared"
Head coach Kyle Shanahan would like to see the NFL respond by allowing teams to prepare for an emergency like the one his 49ers encountered last Sunday, perhaps by permitting an emergency third quarterback to dress on game day, but not count against the 46-man limit.
"Definitely would be in favor of it," Shanahan said Wednesday. "We were scared to death when that rule ended, whatever many years ago that was. You kind of forget about it since you don't see anyone have to go through it, but then you get reminded of how quickly a football game is over once that happens. So I think that would be a very smart thing to have."
