The Return of 49er DC Robert Saleh

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by thl408:
Yeah for real. They are basically sacrificing run defense for better coverage, pulling a LB away from the LoS to be in better position for coverage (more depth). The SAM needs to be fast, and quick just like a MIKE/WILL. If not, teams will exploit him over the middle.

I don't think I can remember a time when the 49ers didn't play a 5-man base front. I was too young during the 90s to really say I can remember those days. It's been a 5-man front for around 15 years, no?

That new alignment is so weird and will take some time to get used to lol. But I like it!

At least 15 years. All those years playing a 3-4 with Nolan, Manusky, Fangio, then Saleh brings the 4-3 Under. Now this. Sign of the times I guess. "It's a passing league"

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Excellent visual. Thanks thl... we ARE W9.

I didn't pay close attention to see if the 49ers were always in a wide9, but I can tell they are no longer a 5 man front like they used to be (small sample, one preseason game). I'm sure there will be times when the 49ers come with an Over front and it might look like wide 9 from the broadcast view, with the only way to tell is by looking at where the DE is lined up with respect to the TE. If the strong DE over the TE, it's most likely an Over front. If he's wide of the TE, then it could be wide9. Another sign is the NT and if he's playing 2i (wide9) or 1t (Over front), but that's hard to tell from broadcast.

In this pic, the strongside DE looks like he's over the TE so I think this might be an Over front, although the WR aligned tight to the formation might be affecting how that DE lines up. The main point of this cutup is to show how the LBs are now all off the ball and how the zone assignments of the SAM/WILL/SS is different compared to when they ran 4-3 Under.

TY...TBF I didn't watch every alignment either. When I did, our ends were definitely the furthest out but it didn't seem extreme for some reason. It seemed like a 'tighter' W9...ends weren't way out there standing on an island like you see with Ford. But that might have been because of the personnel more than anything.

The game reairs tomorrow night on NFLN at 8pm...might look for it more.

LOVE the way he took advantage of Dallas' 3rd teamers and called out some blits.. and I'm not being sarcastic.. we shouldn't be afraid to EXPERIMENT during the preseason..

This is when we can be careless w/the play calling.

Originally posted by NCommand:
TY...TBF I didn't watch every alignment either. When I did, our ends were definitely the furthest out but it didn't seem extreme for some reason. It seemed like a 'tighter' W9...ends weren't way out there standing on an island like you see with Ford. But that might have been because of the personnel more than anything.

The game reairs tomorrow night on NFLN at 8pm...might look for it more.

Wide 9 in base 4-3.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

TY...TBF I didn't watch every alignment either. When I did, our ends were definitely the furthest out but it didn't seem extreme for some reason. It seemed like a 'tighter' W9...ends weren't way out there standing on an island like you see with Ford. But that might have been because of the personnel more than anything.

The game reairs tomorrow night on NFLN at 8pm...might look for it more.

Wide 9 in base 4-3.

There you go. I can't wait to see Ford and Bosa in it.

Here you go Hero.

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This is the question I have going into this week's game: Are we going to see a wide 9 snickel package(ie Armstead and Solly at edge in nickel)???

Originally posted by NCommand:
Excellent visual. Thanks thl... we ARE W9.

It makes sense to use it against 10 and 11 personnel. Which is the majority of offensive sets used in today's NFL game.

I like that the LB's are deeper to cover the pass drops and that the safety is up to cover the TE or step up to limit the damage a run can do against a wide 9 front. The safety up front also makes the Kiffen one gap run defense a lot stronger against the run - in a sense - with (what looked like) 8 men in the tackle box. (or at least inside the DE's of the defensive line).

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Excellent visual. Thanks thl... we ARE W9.

It makes sense to use it against 10 and 11 personnel. Which is the majority of offensive sets used in today's NFL game.

I like that the LB's are deeper to cover the pass drops and that the safety is up to cover the TE or step up to limit the damage a run can do against a wide 9 front. The safety up front also makes the Kiffen one gap run defense a lot stronger against the run - in a sense - with (what looked like) 8 men in the tackle box. (or at least inside the DE's of the defensive line).

Originally posted by Heroism:

This is the question I have going into this week's game: Are we going to see a wide 9 snickel package(ie Armstead and Solly at edge in nickel)???

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Heroism:
Goooood stuff, thl! The LBs are designated exactly how we discussed.

Does this mean Fred Warner is now technically a "SAM" in this new scheme? Same position, but new name?

Extremely similar. The SAM and MIKE are now much more similar to each other than they are to the WILL if I understand it correctly. I'm talking pass coverage. Last season, the MIKE and WILL were very similar.

To me, the Sam and Mike are the *1* in the 4-1-6 defense (in a sense) with the 4 rush men, the WLB dropping in coverage and the SS dropping in coverage, and *either* of the Mike or Sam dropping into coverage, but not both.

I'm getting the sense that instead of getting a hybrid Safety/Linebacker to come in from the DB/Safety side to thump against the running plays, they have instead opted for coverage linebackers (due to the NFL's don't hit the WR's rules) by having the LB's be smaller than regular sized 4-3 LB's and have them basically drop and cover like safeties. I like the design, and the tradeoff for weakening the defense against the run is reasonable if you have good DT's that have the quickness to squeeze the holes or clog the run lanes enough to slow the RB down. The smaller quicker LB's can come in and gang tackle the RB. The strong Safety right there with the LB's is kind of another LB that can help gang tackling against the run too.

I'd love to have another Dre Greenlaw in next years draft to play the Strong Safety position, as a heavier alternative to the traditional safeties we have on defense today. Again, I love Dre Greenlaw's safety and coverage background. He's (I think) the closest we have to a John Lynch kind of thumper that can cover also.

Originally posted by Giedi:
To me, the Sam and Mike are the *1* in the 4-1-6 defense (in a sense) with the 4 rush men, the WLB dropping in coverage and the SS dropping in coverage, and *either* of the Mike or Sam dropping into coverage, but not both.

They're still running the same Seattle-style cover 3 with the two inside LBs playing hook zones and pattern matching crossers. SS takes the TE if he goes outside* or vertical. However, this is not always the SS now. It can be the other safety if the coverage rolls. Same rules apply in this cover 3 scheme, tho.

So same rules as before. The only change is the assignments. It appears the WILL is now a curl-flat player instead of a weak hook player, and the SAM is a strong hook player instead of a force and curl-flat player.

btw smaller athletic LBs is a definitive trait of this scheme. When Pete Carroll came back to the NFL, he prioritized LBs with speed and athleticism over size to play fast in a simple scheme and be able to run with WRs against cover 3 beaters. It's one of the reasons I've had so much success with identifying the LBs they will target in the draft and free agency. It's now becoming a trend across the league, tho.

This is virtually the same type of cover 3 I played in high school. I believe it's commonly called cover 3 sky. I don't remember exactly. It's been a minute lol.

Except for the fancy pattern matching. spotdrop4life

Originally posted by NCommand:

Let's pray we've seen the end of the snickel.

Originally posted by Heroism:

This is virtually the same type of cover 3 I played in high school. I believe it's commonly called cover 3 sky. I don't remember exactly. It's been a minute lol.

Except for the fancy pattern matching. spotdrop4life

Originally posted by NCommand:

Let's pray we've seen the end of the snickel.

My man, I will all day long with you on that.

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by Giedi:
To me, the Sam and Mike are the *1* in the 4-1-6 defense (in a sense) with the 4 rush men, the WLB dropping in coverage and the SS dropping in coverage, and *either* of the Mike or Sam dropping into coverage, but not both.

They're still running the same Seattle-style cover 3 with the two inside LBs playing hook zones and pattern matching crossers. SS takes the TE if he goes inside or vertical. However, this is not always the SS now. It can be the other safety if the coverage rolls. Same rules apply in this cover 3 scheme, tho.

So same rules as before. The only change is the assignments. It appears the WILL is now a curl-flat player instead of a weak hook player, and the SAM is a strong hook player instead of a force and curl-flat player.

btw smaller athletic LBs is a definitive trait of this scheme. When Pete Carroll came back to the NFL, he prioritized LBs with speed and athleticism over size to play fast in a simple scheme and be able to run with WRs against cover 3 beaters. It's one of the reasons I've had so much success with identifying the LBs they will target in the draft and free agency. It's now becoming a trend across the league, tho.

One weakness I see is if the offense can't ball hog. The smaller defensive players will eventually get worn down if they are out there too long. Speed and Athleticism always meant a turnover centric football defense to me. Walsh adopted a lot of Al Davis' defensive concepts on speed and athleticism vs power and agility - with the old Raider defenses... but the key was being able to ball control and ball hog on offense.

McGee would fill the role as a designated pass rusher on third down when opponents went to three wide receivers and the Patriots responded with four defensive linemen and five defensive backs. And fill it he did, averaging around 10 sacks per season from 1974-80.[…]
in [Raiders] Sumner's "Pirate" defense, James Davis would play nickle as both inside linebackers would come off, and Greg Townsend would play left defensive end, Bill Pickell would play left defensive tackle and Howie Long would play right defensive tackle (usually a 3 technique) in this extremely effective set. When Alzado would get nicked or needed some air, Long would played right defensive end and Townsend or Pickell would played left defensive end. And to isolate Howie Long on the center, as the Bears Buddy Ryan would do with Dan Hampton, Long would play nose tackle in a 5-man line. In the 'Desparado" defense, it was the four best pass rushers and seven defensive backs on the field for the Raiders. ("Renegade was the dime or six-man secondary).
http://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/2015/04/charlie-sumner-his-place-in-resurgance.html