The Return of 49er DC Robert Saleh

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Is he the reason this regime feels compelled to spend so much draft capital and cap space on defense year after year?

+ Show all quotes
No

If we had a more experienced DC, would we see more capital spread around more evenly between offense and defense?

Lynch said during one of the recent pressers that their approach to building a team is to get a QB, then get guys that can hit the QB. I think Kyle puts a high emphasis on hitting the QB. When he was OC of the Texans, the coaching staff asked his opinion on who they should draft. To their surprise, he said Mario Williams, not Reggie Bush, who would have made Kyle's job as OC easier.

I think that's genuine and proven now too. No question.

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"They can be a little bit predictable at times," Simms said. "That's why we saw the third-and-15 converted. They kind of knew what kind of coverage they were going to play. 'Let's call this play; they've been calling this coverage a lot.' When you do that, you're very dependent on your talent to always come through."

"If you want to make stops on third and 4, third and 5 in the NFL, you got to play man-to-man," Simms said. "That's what the really good defenses are doing. Whether that's the Baltimore Ravens or New England Patriots. They're not going to let you pick apart some zone and find a little hole and have a good quarterback, zoom, throw some laser in there.

"They're going to go, 'Nope, we're going to glue you up, man to man, and really make you think twice and give you no windows to throw ball and you're going to have to make a great throw against man-to-man coverage against our really good corners.' And I do think that's probably one aspect that I'd like to see the 49ers improve over the next year or so."

Gotta have the corners to play more man. Don't think we do at the moment.

Originally posted by FL9er:

Gotta have the corners to play more man. Don't think we do at the moment.

I think TH has been mentioning that and wanting to see it. Need to get some guys that can do both .

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by FL9er:
Gotta have the corners to play more man. Don't think we do at the moment.

I think TH has been mentioning that and wanting to see it. Need to get some guys that can do both .

Even if you had the DB's, once a QB scrambles, with a talent like Mahomes, I don't know if even great DB's could have stopped those plays. I think it has to start with the DLine and that DLine has to contain and get to Mahomes, because once those kinds of QB's escape the pocket - they become very dangerous. I saw Steve Young, by himself, win games because he could do it all - run or pass. It's also the way the rules are set up too. The QB is pretty much protected and has the advantage, in my opinion, once he escapes the pocket. I think you almost have to blitz one way or the other (by guessing) to stop those plays - because if you sit back and play conventional defense - those mobile QB's will escape time and time again and burn the DB's.

There's no man corner in the NFL staying with Tyreek Hill.

If you want good man corners, you're drafting them early. At that point it becomes a philosophical choice of how you believe a defense should be built: front to back or back to front? For this particular defense, front to back is the right option. I think they can find guys who are capable of playing a little man if they're more open minded with the CB profile. Those tall dudes ain't built to play man.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Is he the reason this regime feels compelled to spend so much draft capital and cap space on defense year after year?

We've spent a 1st, 2 2nds, traded away another 2nd, and a 3rd at wide receiver in the past 3 years alone. It's not like we aren't taking offensive players. Our strategy is line #1 1st pick, skilled players #2nd pick. Not a bad strategy at all.

Originally posted by Heroism:
There's no man corner in the NFL staying with Tyreek Hill.

If you want good man corners, you're drafting them early. At that point it becomes a philosophical choice of how you believe a defense should be built: front to back or back to front? For this particular defense, front to back is the right option. I think they can find guys who are capable of playing a little man if they're more open minded with the CB profile. Those tall dudes ain't built to play man.

I"m a front to back person myself. The difference between the dynasty years and today, is the extreme mobility of the QB's (Kaepernick, Cam Newton, and Mahomes) The rules also favor and protect them. The Rules, I think, also favor WR's (and pass catchers in general) vs DB's. (I.e. the pass interference rules, defenseless ball carrier rules etc...) DB's just cant win with just talent anymore - with all that stacked against them. With the current rules, we'd lose the NFC Championship game vs Dallas in 1981. I think Eric Wright would be called a horsecollar penalty in the NFC Championship game against Dallas after the catch, with the current rules. I think you have to load up on the DLine to even have a chance to slow down elite passing attacks like Seadderall, New Orleans and Chiefs.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by FL9er:
Gotta have the corners to play more man. Don't think we do at the moment.

I think TH has been mentioning that and wanting to see it. Need to get some guys that can do both .

Even if you had the DB's, once a QB scrambles, with a talent like Mahomes, I don't know if even great DB's could have stopped those plays. I think it has to start with the DLine and that DLine has to contain and get to Mahomes, because once those kinds of QB's escape the pocket - they become very dangerous. I saw Steve Young, by himself, win games because he could do it all - run or pass. It's also the way the rules are set up too. The QB is pretty much protected and has the advantage, in my opinion, once he escapes the pocket. I think you almost have to blitz one way or the other (by guessing) to stop those plays - because if you sit back and play conventional defense - those mobile QB's will escape time and time again and burn the DB's.

Yeah some people may want more man coverage but then you'll have more defenders with their backs turned against mobile QB's. Then what?

Originally posted by SFrush:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by FL9er:
Gotta have the corners to play more man. Don't think we do at the moment.

+ Show all quotes
I think TH has been mentioning that and wanting to see it. Need to get some guys that can do both .

Even if you had the DB's, once a QB scrambles, with a talent like Mahomes, I don't know if even great DB's could have stopped those plays. I think it has to start with the DLine and that DLine has to contain and get to Mahomes, because once those kinds of QB's escape the pocket - they become very dangerous. I saw Steve Young, by himself, win games because he could do it all - run or pass. It's also the way the rules are set up too. The QB is pretty much protected and has the advantage, in my opinion, once he escapes the pocket. I think you almost have to blitz one way or the other (by guessing) to stop those plays - because if you sit back and play conventional defense - those mobile QB's will escape time and time again and burn the DB's.

Yeah some people may want more man coverage but then you'll have more defenders with their backs turned against mobile QB's. Then what?

When you have a mobile QB, essentially the offense plays with a man advantage vs the defense. I just don't think (with the rules as they are currently) defenses can shut down offenses - at best they just slow offenses down to where your offense can keep ahead of the other offense. The Super Bowl felt like a track match to me, with the guy with the ball last would win. Our entire team (including the coaches) in the super bowl was just too young and inexperienced for the bright lights, in my opinion.

I think Kyle found out the hard way how mobile QB's with arm talent can take over games no matter how talented your defenders are. I think signing Rutter was a turning point in Kyle's mindset about staying away from mobile QB's.

Originally posted by NCommand:

The #49ers defense was among the best in the NFL last season. Here's how @CSimmsQB believes Robert Saleh can make adjustments to the pass defense to become less predictable on key downs:https://t.co/Gyva0fqXVP

— Matt Maiocco (@MaioccoNBCS) May 1, 2020

I agree with the premise of the article, although I don't think using that 3rd & 15 is a good example of why the defense needs to be able to play man more effectively. Like Geidi mentioned, playing man against elusive QBs is playing with fire. If an elusive QB escapes the pocket, then man coverage can get you in trouble since it's difficult to play man for over 4 seconds.

I had suggested the defense be capable of playing man coverage better, but the foundation of this defense is zone. And it makes a lot of sense to be this way with the strength of the defense being the DL. I do think that with better man CBs, mixed with creative blitz packages, it can be a good way to change things up against mobile QBs at certain points within a game. If the 49ers do some honest self scouting, I think they will see that playing man coverage more effectively would add a new dimension that they can go to in key situations.

With Sherman probably slowing down physically, asking him to play more man wouldn't be playing to his strength. So the 2020 defense could be more of the same (very zone heavy). Perhaps start keeping an eye out for more athletic CBs so that once Sherman hangs them up, there's a new crop of 49er CBs that can play both man and zone reasonably well. Like Hero said, the really good man CB prospects go round 1. It would be a big commitment of draft capital to go that route, but I think it's possible to get a couple CBs that can do a little bit of both well enough that the front 4 makes them better than they actually are.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Is he the reason this regime feels compelled to spend so much draft capital and cap space on defense year after year?

We've spent a 1st, 2 2nds, traded away another 2nd, and a 3rd at wide receiver in the past 3 years alone. It's not like we aren't taking offensive players. Our strategy is line #1 1st pick, skilled players #2nd pick. Not a bad strategy at all.

Still no comparison to DL. They've just panned out much better but WR is certainly a good example given the draft capital they've spent there!

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

The #49ers defense was among the best in the NFL last season. Here's how @CSimmsQB believes Robert Saleh can make adjustments to the pass defense to become less predictable on key downs:https://t.co/Gyva0fqXVP

— Matt Maiocco (@MaioccoNBCS) May 1, 2020

I agree with the premise of the article, although I don't think using that 3rd & 15 is a good example of why the defense needs to be able to play man more effectively. Like Geidi mentioned, playing man against elusive QBs is playing with fire. If an elusive QB escapes the pocket, then man coverage can get you in trouble since it's difficult to play man for over 4 seconds.

I had suggested the defense be capable of playing man coverage better, but the foundation of this defense is zone. And it makes a lot of sense to be this way with the strength of the defense being the DL. I do think that with better man CBs, mixed with creative blitz packages, it can be a good way to change things up against mobile QBs at certain points within a game. If the 49ers do some honest self scouting, I think they will see that playing man coverage more effectively would add a new dimension that they can go to in key situations.

With Sherman probably slowing down physically, asking him to play more man wouldn't be playing to his strength. So the 2020 defense could be more of the same (very zone heavy). Perhaps start keeping an eye out for more athletic CBs so that once Sherman hangs them up, there's a new crop of 49er CBs that can play both man and zone reasonably well. Like Hero said, the really good man CB prospects go round 1. It would be a big commitment of draft capital to go that route, but I think it's possible to get a couple CBs that can do a little bit of both well enough that the front 4 makes them better than they actually are.

Well said thl...fully agree here.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

The #49ers defense was among the best in the NFL last season. Here's how @CSimmsQB believes Robert Saleh can make adjustments to the pass defense to become less predictable on key downs:https://t.co/Gyva0fqXVP

— Matt Maiocco (@MaioccoNBCS) May 1, 2020

I agree with the premise of the article, although I don't think using that 3rd & 15 is a good example of why the defense needs to be able to play man more effectively. Like Geidi mentioned, playing man against elusive QBs is playing with fire. If an elusive QB escapes the pocket, then man coverage can get you in trouble since it's difficult to play man for over 4 seconds.

I had suggested the defense be capable of playing man coverage better, but the foundation of this defense is zone. And it makes a lot of sense to be this way with the strength of the defense being the DL. I do think that with better man CBs, mixed with creative blitz packages, it can be a good way to change things up against mobile QBs at certain points within a game. If the 49ers do some honest self scouting, I think they will see that playing man coverage more effectively would add a new dimension that they can go to in key situations.

With Sherman probably slowing down physically, asking him to play more man wouldn't be playing to his strength. So the 2020 defense could be more of the same (very zone heavy). Perhaps start keeping an eye out for more athletic CBs so that once Sherman hangs them up, there's a new crop of 49er CBs that can play both man and zone reasonably well. Like Hero said, the really good man CB prospects go round 1. It would be a big commitment of draft capital to go that route, but I think it's possible to get a couple CBs that can do a little bit of both well enough that the front 4 makes them better than they actually are.

Well said thl...fully agree here.

Excellent post THL, I agree, and share in agreement with the Article's premise also but your point is very good. I also wanted DB help in this years draft, but unfortunately the draft wasn't apparently very deep in DB's. I remember Walsh in 81 just loading up on DB's and getting Fred Dean in the regular season, and that really sealed the deal and our first super bowl win.

I think John Lynch has a bit of a bias against DB's, and it's a bit of a worry. He's stated time and time again, that if you have a great D LIne, you don't need excellent DB athletes back there. I think this bias revealed it's weaknesses in the super bowl where once the QB escapes and buys time, you now need the DB's to hold up in pass coverage (as impossible as that sounds vs Mahomes).

We couldn't have won the first two super bowls without great DB's in Ronnie Lott and Eric Wright. I think John has to revisit his defensive philosophy to include drafting better DB athletes that can keep up with the Tyreeks and the Julio's that are out there. Otherwise, we'll be in the same spot as last time if we meet the Chiefs again in the playoffs.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Excellent post THL, I agree, and share in agreement with the Article's premise also but your point is very good. I also wanted DB help in this years draft, but unfortunately the draft wasn't apparently very deep in DB's. I remember Walsh in 81 just loading up on DB's and getting Fred Dean in the regular season, and that really sealed the deal and our first super bowl win.

I think John Lynch has a bit of a bias against DB's, and it's a bit of a worry. He's stated time and time again, that if you have a great D LIne, you don't need excellent DB athletes back there. I think this bias revealed it's weaknesses in the super bowl where once the QB escapes and buys time, you now need the DB's to hold up in pass coverage (as impossible as that sounds vs Mahomes).

We couldn't have won the first two super bowls without great DB's in Ronnie Lott and Eric Wright. I think John has to revisit his defensive philosophy to include drafting better DB athletes that can keep up with the Tyreeks and the Julio's that are out there. Otherwise, we'll be in the same spot as last time if we meet the Chiefs again in the playoffs.

Fully agree. Every FO has a couple blind spots. To me, that's CB and OL. I think both Kyle and Lynch come from more older school philosophical backgrounds. The good news is both have 6 year contracts so hopefully next year, OL and DB will be more in play for a more complete...talented starting team.