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The Iron-Pyrite-Lining Thread (Negative people come on in!)

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Originally posted by NinerSickness:
Which is why I say the team has no plan.


No offense, but it sounds little goffy to have rebuilding plan around obtaining one targeted player.

Nobody does that.

The number one priority is get a defense that can tackle. They've addressed that. and will continue to I am sure.

Number two is take care of number one. And don't do anything else until number one is under control.

Hence Brian Hoyer or (fill in the blank with someone who has touched shanny's system).

That seems like a perfectly reasonable and orderly plan to me. Acknowledging that the right qb isn't available now and we'll keep looking.

Why is that a non plan. It seems like acknowledging reality, which this franchise FO and Ownership haven't done in the last few years.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by NinerSickness:
Which is why I say the team has no plan.


No offense, but it sounds little goffy to have rebuilding plan around obtaining one targeted player.

Nobody does that.

The number one priority is get a defense that can tackle. They've addressed that. and will continue to I am sure.

Number two is take care of number one. And don't do anything else until number one is under control.

Hence Brian Hoyer or (fill in the blank with someone who has touched shanny's system).

That seems like a perfectly reasonable and orderly plan to me. Acknowledging that the right qb isn't available now and we'll keep looking.

Why is that a non plan. It seems like acknowledging reality, which this franchise FO and Ownership haven't done in the last few years.

The smartest way to build a team imo is to draft the best players available, which I think we did at the top end of the draft...this team is far from just a QB away and most people would agree there wasn't a true stud at the top at QB.

The draft is looking great next yr (at QB) and we got some extra picks to work with, that shows me lynch and Co. do have a plan....another great option is if we have a top end draft pick plus get Kirk then sell that pick for a kings ransom ( example the titans).
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
No offense, but it sounds little goffy to have rebuilding plan around obtaining one targeted player.

Nobody does that.

As long as you have the great Brian Hoyer to lead your team to the promised land, I'd say you're right.
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by Cisco0623:
I was going by OP original post, which was fair imo. Further responses reveal a man crush for Trub which is ok too. This will take a few years but I think next off season we need to do what it takes to get a long term fqb
no doubt we need that FQB. question worth consideration is: what, exactly, makes a FQB?

Are you being serious or condescending?
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by Cisco0623:
I was going by OP original post, which was fair imo. Further responses reveal a man crush for Trub which is ok too. This will take a few years but I think next off season we need to do what it takes to get a long term fqb

I'm down with getting a FQB via draft or FA

Agreed, I am afraid of being a great team without the QB again so i think next offseason we make our move. Luckily there are a few FA and this draft looks to have way more to offer than 17.
Originally posted by Cisco0623:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by Cisco0623:
I was going by OP original post, which was fair imo. Further responses reveal a man crush for Trub which is ok too. This will take a few years but I think next off season we need to do what it takes to get a long term fqb
no doubt we need that FQB. question worth consideration is: what, exactly, makes a FQB?

Are you being serious or condescending?
very serious--I'm in no position to be condescending. I'm just a fan like you. I have to add that I was impressed with Shanahan's list of traits he looks for in a qb--which included arm strength, toughness, ability to read a defense and distribute the ball to the right receiver, quick release, etc. Things worth thinking about. imho
[ Edited by oldninerdude on Jul 9, 2017 at 6:25 PM ]
Originally posted by NinerSickness:
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
No offense, but it sounds little goffy to have rebuilding plan around obtaining one targeted player.

Nobody does that.

As long as you have the great Brian Hoyer to lead your team to the promised land, I'd say you're right.

Did you read my post? Hoyer is passable filler until the right guy is found. By the way IMPROVED filler from Kap and Gabbert.

Nobody thinks Hoyer is bringing us to the promised land. Just 5-11. That's fine.

With so many holes to fill there aint no promised land next year. Hoyer will be sacked 35-50 times hurried 200+ 15 ints, if he's really on the beam.

He better have BCBS PPO.
Once again this thread is basically nothing but a b***h fest that Kyle/John didn't draft Mitch Trubisky.

OP is insinuating this team has no plan to improve this team because they didn't draft Mitch.

Let's break this down.

2 teams essentially passed on Mitch Trubisky in this draft.

Cleveland by taking another player over him and 49ers for trading down with him on the board.

Those teams have head coaches with a highly respected background in offense and especially their ability to groom young QBs.

They both didn't see Trubisky as being worth it. And both teams had HUGE needs at the position. The position which everyone knows is THE most important position on an NFL roster these days.

You think maybe Mitch wasn't a sure fire franchise savior?

The idea that Kirk Cousins isn't exciting and that he can't win you playoff games or SBs while essentially insinuating that Trubisky offers excitement and a legit chance at a SB title is straight up laughable.

What this team did was brilliant in part because the Bears totally panicked. Talk about a team with no plan...when your Hc doesn't know you're tearing up for a QB the morning off the draft then that's a clear sign that there's no plan.

Passing on a one year starter at QB to address major holes on the defense while gaining more ammo to do whatever the following season was the right move. Hell drafting Solomon at 2 would've been the right move on its own.

Trubisky may end up being an elite QB, we'll see but the risk was certainly not worth it and I'm glad our front office saw it that way too.

Next offseason will reveal a lot. One way or another that's when we'll address our QB of the future. It could be an early draft pick, mid round draft pick, Cousins or Garoppolo or Beathard. But we'll be a much better team with Solomon, Foster and those extra picks than we would be with just Trubisky.
Originally posted by NYniner85:
The smartest way to build a team imo is to draft the best players available, which I think we did at the top end of the draft...this team is far from just a QB away and most people would agree there wasn't a true stud at the top at QB.

The draft is looking great next yr (at QB) and we got some extra picks to work with, that shows me lynch and Co. do have a plan....another great option is if we have a top end draft pick plus get Kirk then sell that pick for a kings ransom ( example the titans).

Exactly. Cousins would give us a lot of flexibility as a team and would allow the front office to make moves that benefit the team long term.

If we sign Cousins and we're in position to draft a QB prospect who Kyle thinks can be even better then we take him and don't think twice. If he thinks that prospect isn't going to be better or not worth the risk then we can flip that pick for a ton more or just take a better player who can help the roster we have at the time.

There is definitely a plan here. With several contingencies in place.
Originally posted by NinerSickness:
Originally posted by norcal49er864:
Originally posted by NinerSickness:
Originally posted by norcal49er864:
The plan is not for any one person to save the team.

That sounds like a great plan.

Sincerely,

Baseball GMs

What? I'm gonna go ahead and guess that the only year of baseball you've watched in your life was when MadBum basically carried the Giants to a World Series.

Is that all you got or are you not going to address the rest of my argument?

The rest of your argument is a non-sequitur. You're putting a QB saving the team in opposition to developing the rest of the team's talent. Those 2 things are not mutually exclusive.

You have to get a franchise QB. Or bye bye Super-Bowl hopes.

...And by the way, I haven't watched baseball since I was a kid. No salary cap made the sport into a joke, IMO.

I never said they were mutually exclusive. When I was talking about developing talent I specifically meant developing quarterbacking talent. Great teams manage to draft and develope quarterbacking talent and then they trade they're backups to teams hungry for started for additional draft assets. I think that is different than counting on a quarterback to save you. That's the difference. In this case you are setting up a quarterback to succeed and building him up, rather than hoping to be carried. If you think that Rodgers or Brady just emerged fully formed from college into the pros than you are missing a big part of what helped them to grow into the players they are now.
Originally posted by thl408:
f**k the 9ers

My gloomy take.

We may be making too much of Shanahan's "genius" and dismiss the bad bits in his record a little too readily (choke job in the SB, eventual implosion of his dad's regime in Washington, to which he was a major part). Chip Kelly was also a "genius", and although we were more cautious about him last year we also dismissed the black marks on his record a little too easily. He had learned his lesson and he would be a reformed character. Well, it didn't quite work out that way, did it? Sure, our talent level was pretty dire, and the QB circus didn't help either. But some of the failure, esp. on defence was on him. How much of a "genius" are you if you only focus on one part of the game as a HC?

I also mistrust his very obvious draft crushes. I have nothing against Beathard or Williams, and only contempt for the draftnik obsession with "steals" and "reaches". I don't care if "he was slated to go in the 5th" and we took him in the 3rd. Who cares? But fixating on mid round players so hard makes me a bit uncomfortable. I also fear the "Baalke effect" of trying to be too clever by half by trying to unearth "gems" in the later rounds and going off script. Unfortunately our recent record of going off script and drafting aggressively and/or bizarrely (Bell, Pinion, Garrett) hasn't actually worked that well. I am uncomfortable with a coach who has such a hard on for a mid-round player that he pressures the GM to trade up to draft him so that he can sleep in peace between Days 2 and 3. I don't care about the actual trade assets given up (we ended up with more picks than we started, and are stocked for next year), I just fear the "blue eyed boy/teacher's pet approach" that may saddle us with a poor player getting extra playing time just because the HC who went out of the way to draft him simply must play him and prove what a genius he is.

Our talent level remains pretty dire and/or completely unproven. The defence for instance reminds me of the '07-'08 period. Some really excellent young players who would even go on to become greats, but on the whole poor experience (and occasionally scheme) leading to terrible collapses and blowouts. And the offence is also entirely unproven. I expect a terrible rollercoast season, with some weird victories out of nowhere and some miserable blowouts.

NaVorro is probably done. It pains me to say this, as I am a colossal fan, but each of those injuries in itself could end a career. Two of them in a row? I fear the worst.

Obviously, I will be delighted to eat my words, just as I ate them halfway into the '11 season. But I'm a gloomy b*****d. Sorry.
Originally posted by paulk205:
My gloomy take.

We may be making too much of Shanahan's "genius" and dismiss the bad bits in his record a little too readily (choke job in the SB, eventual implosion of his dad's regime in Washington, to which he was a major part). Chip Kelly was also a "genius", and although we were more cautious about him last year we also dismissed the black marks on his record a little too easily. He had learned his lesson and he would be a reformed character. Well, it didn't quite work out that way, did it? Sure, our talent level was pretty dire, and the QB circus didn't help either. But some of the failure, esp. on defence was on him. How much of a "genius" are you if you only focus on one part of the game as a HC?

I also mistrust his very obvious draft crushes. I have nothing against Beathard or Williams, and only contempt for the draftnik obsession with "steals" and "reaches". I don't care if "he was slated to go in the 5th" and we took him in the 3rd. Who cares? But fixating on mid round players so hard makes me a bit uncomfortable. I also fear the "Baalke effect" of trying to be too clever by half by trying to unearth "gems" in the later rounds and going off script. Unfortunately our recent record of going off script and drafting aggressively and/or bizarrely (Bell, Pinion, Garrett) hasn't actually worked that well. I am uncomfortable with a coach who has such a hard on for a mid-round player that he pressures the GM to trade up to draft him so that he can sleep in peace between Days 2 and 3. I don't care about the actual trade assets given up (we ended up with more picks than we started, and are stocked for next year), I just fear the "blue eyed boy/teacher's pet approach" that may saddle us with a poor player getting extra playing time just because the HC who went out of the way to draft him simply must play him and prove what a genius he is.

Our talent level remains pretty dire and/or completely unproven. The defence for instance reminds me of the '07-'08 period. Some really excellent young players who would even go on to become greats, but on the whole poor experience (and occasionally scheme) leading to terrible collapses and blowouts. And the offence is also entirely unproven. I expect a terrible rollercoast season, with some weird victories out of nowhere and some miserable blowouts.

NaVorro is probably done. It pains me to say this, as I am a colossal fan, but each of those injuries in itself could end a career. Two of them in a row? I fear the worst.

Obviously, I will be delighted to eat my words, just as I ate them halfway into the '11 season. But I'm a gloomy b*****d. Sorry.

Was that just a "if I had to make a gloomy post this would be my concern"? Or was that legit your thoughts on the team?

I'll be honest I did not want Shanahan as HC. Well at least he wasn't my top choice. I wanted Josh McDaniels. I do have concerns about Kyle's past and those reports from Washington certainly stood out. My big fear with him and why I wanted McDaniels over him were he's a first time HC who may not know what mistakes he should avoid. McDaniels learned the hard way in Denver it's not all about how smart you are. I'm hoping Kyle doesn't use us as a learning experience the same way Josh used Denver. And actually a lot of what you wrote is very similar to what Denver went through with Josh. Pet projects - Tebow. Too much reliance on genius.

Having said that I think it's unfair to claim these things about Kyle now. It does seem like he possibly learned his lesson a bit with the story of meeting with Matt Ryan before last season to hash some things out and so far he's come off pretty personable and the players have had glowing reviews. I'm also not sure why what Chip Kelly has to do with Kyle Shanahan.

And the draft crushes? All coaches have them...let's see how they do first. And I'd rather have his draft crushes be offensive players considering he runs and knows his scheme and what kind of players he wants in it. If his pet projects were defensive players then there would be a lot more room for concern.

The record for going "off script" wtf is that? First of all those players you listed have nothing to do with the current front office. Should we blame Kyle and Shanahan for Reggie McGrew and Rashaun Woods as well? Hell the only players we probably went "off script" for was Beathard and I'll trust Kyle on who he wants in a developmental QB prospect over the draft pundits who apparently write this "script" you want us to follow.

Your concerns seem a lot more what ifs and mostly based on prior coaches/GMs. Let's see what happens first.

If Kyle starts being a dick to players and playing "his" guys when they're clearly inferior players then we'll have something to worry about.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by NorthBay49er:
Harold sucks
Carradine sucks
Barkley sucks
Ellington sucks
Bell sucks
Tartt sucks
Reid sucks
We have 1 cb
Our WRs are nothing special
Niners still wearing yellow pants instead of gold
yes. You're point?
Yellow pants suck
Originally posted by genus49:
Was that just a "if I had to make a gloomy post this would be my concern"? Or was that legit your thoughts on the team?

It was a legit post about my fears on the team. I am an optimist by nature (honest!) and like everyone else before the season starts I fantasise about all the breaks coming our way and we outperform expectations. Sometimes it works (e.g. 2011). More often it doesn't (e.g. 2007). To give you another example about another of my teams, the Phillies (I am not a 9ers fan from the Bay Area, in fact I am European and lived in Philly a few years in the 90s, including the almost magical '93 season). Anyway, everyone knows that the team is in heavy rebuilding mode, that it all depends on prospects panning out in the minors and getting promoted quickly, that this season was a writeoff but we'd like to see progress. I hoped that our uninspired FA signings would work out, that our prospects would progress and that the team would, against expectations, improve to play .500 ball and so attract big name FA next offseason by a narrative of a young core and improvement. I hoped that the baseball version of The Process would work out, and that against all signs our FO and manager would prove to be hidden geniuses. Well, the FAs have been a disaster (one DL'ed for the season, another DFA'ed a month before the break, a third going in and out of the DL all year); the prospects have regressed; and the team is on target for losing 110 this year. Ouch.

So, to bring it back to the Niners. I fear the worst. I do. Our starting QB has a past missing major chunks of seasons and, though very serviceable (he's no Gabbert) he's not exactly lights out either. If he plays at an Alex Smith '11 level it will be amazing, and Alex (whom I actually like) is merely "good" at his best. Our receivers are the same mix of "potential" plus one big name that we had the last season. Our projected tight ends don't even have that one big name - it's all "potential" and former busts. Our OL hasn't been good for years; Staley is awesome, but he's also a year older from last season's disastrous campaign. The rest of the line MAY have gelled - or not. If it's "not" then I expect Hoyer to be in the IR by Week 6. Our running backs have "potential": a veteran that has shown flashes and never stays healthy; and the coach's personal draft crush who may be amazing, or a headcase, or merely serviceable. But who is DEFINITELY a rookie, therefore who knows? On D we have a former All Pro who is coming back from his second career threatening injury; 3 top picks on the DL who are entirely unproven and who may not even be able to play together at the same time due to scheme (for the record, Buckner and Thomas were my own draft crushes, so I'm not against the players). Who else? Safety looks OK, though Tartt (another oddball pick, which I really, REALLY wanted to pan out, but hasn't so far) is still at "potential" level. Corners have "potential", though the one proven veteran (who was no hot shakes at that) was correctly fired for being a woman-beating bum. The other two LBs are an underperforming veteran and a rookie with an injury cloud over him.

And we finally have our managerial team. An owner who is a known meddler, messer-up and entitled silver spoon. A CEO-type (whatever his title is this month) whose image the team are trying really hard to rehabilitate, but who has been accused of messing with management in the past to disastrous effect. We have a rookie GM, who granted has been saying all the right things and seeming like he's actually doing the right things (I like the man!). And we have another "genius" coach, to follow from our genius from last year, who followed (with a one year plumber-at-the-helm interlude) a "quarterback whisperer" (who did wonderfully but who was apparently an insufferable headcase), who followed a HOFer with vaunted motivational skills, who followed another "genius" (defensive variant) from a defensively storied franchise, who followed a college genius, who followed... hang on, we're back to Mariucci now, and I liked Mariucci!

We are justly mocked as "Whiners". It's true. We whine. I am as bad (heck, my other American sports team is a Philadelphia team. Boooooooo! QED). But living through the dynasty years will do that to you. I liked going into a game expecting a victory and into a season expecting the championship game at worst. The only time I felt like this since 1999 was about 6 months into the 2002 season, and again in 2012-3. I miss that. "Silver linings" are no substitute.
[ Edited by paulk205 on Jul 10, 2017 at 7:40 AM ]
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