The Iron-Pyrite-Lining Thread (Negative people come on in!)

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SoCold:
No. Just saying that losing is a collective effort just like winning.

It was everyone's fault.

Truth...long long long list of fails. Near identical to Atlanta...it took a perfect storm of failures to lose that game.

I only disagree on the semantics and degree to which play calling affected the game.

True.

It's like yesterday someone brought up how the coaches screwed up in our SB because the game started with an illegal formation penalty. It was just VD not getting set right and he did that crap all the time in the regular season. He knew the play call was going to him and go over excited. s**t happens all the time. I bet everyone thought Gore was going to get the rock on first down and they dialed up a perfect pass play for 20 yards. It was a good call just not executed correctly.

Blame the coaches, blame VD, blame the TE coach for not demanding D Walker should have gotten the first play of the game, blame the water boy.
lol

Originally posted by paulk205:

Originally posted by BOI49er:

I too know this is the thread for negative people, but even negative people can proffer "better" paths forward. They're seldom what the rest of us would agree with, but being a Debbie Downer with no solutions is just depressing.

Lets try this. What do you want to do, besides cry in your beer?

I really don't think I have many clever solutions. I hope we do ok, but I fear this will be another 4-12 or thereabouts season, with "potential" though.

To recap:

Had no real horse in the HC stakes, Shanahan was probably the best available. But I distrust saviours and geniuses. For the record, I was doubtful about Harbaugh (I actually wanted Billick! No, look it up!)

Was indifferent on the GM stakes, as long as Baalke took a long, long flight away from Santa Clara. Lynch was out of left field but hasn't done too badly. So far. To his credit he is also not touted as a genius.

Delighted with the Thomas pick, though the draft is always a crapshoot. Happy with Froster, though I'm worried about the shoulder rumours. I never obsess over mid and late rounders, but I don't like coaches fixating over them either (hence my fear of the two teachers pets, who BTW I hope will turn out great)

Really, REALLY cautious about Our Lord and Saviour Kirk Cousins. He's a great story, and he seems like a good egg, but I just can't see how he can be this amazing solution for this otherwise very poor team in terms of talent. I listen to Tony K's show (podcast) for years now and I get rather more of the Washington fans' and reporters' take on him, and they confirm what I've always seen from him on the field: a sort of Alex Smith type of overall talent (and I liked Alex), seasoned with back breaking interceptions at the worst moment. He has cleaned up on these lately - as I said, I like the guy and he is a great story. But he will be paid like a couple of your more sybaritic kings next summer - unless he signs the Washington extension in which case we will see suicides here. Is he worth it? I don't think so. Sure, we have the cap space - NOW. But if we do start building up the rest of the team, they will want money too, and by that time the Cousins contract will be a millstone. I prefer going the boring veteran route (aka the Hoyer route) and keep drafting QBs. Perhaps one will stick.

Ok. Re. Cousins being another Alex Smith. Smith's (only) problem is his reluctance to push the ball down the field. It's not his interception rate. Cousins is near the top of the league in yards per attempt. I think Smith was ruined by his two first defensive coaches who wouldn't let him throw until third and long, and then blamed him for the loss when he had to press and threw interceptions. Single cell even said "you just don't screw it up, and My defense will win it in the fourth quarter". So that's who he is now. Cousins learned under Kyle. Whole 'nother mindset.

As to the cap, my plan would be to front load the dickens out of the contract, perhaps as much as $35-40m the first year. That serves several purposes. It makes subsequent years very low when like you said the rest of our roster will be more needy. It might be necessary in the event the Skins transition tag him and could match a lower offer. And it means the total contract would be less, because sooner money is worth more than deferred money, and it otherwise just sits in York's bank for that time.

Your solution is to play a vet and draft quarterbacks until one sticks. We agree. That's my solution too. I just don't see why upgrading the vet from Hoyer to Cousins impedes that plan.

I am more optimistic than you, and do think we'll surprise some people with some unexpected wins this year. And Kyle is the reason why. We may have drafted defense at the top, but he brought in some skill people on offense in the off-season I think he can use. And, I think his offense is head and shoulders better than anybody else, and is very hard to defend. Then next year, with Cousins, a big body receiver, and another draft and off season, I think we should make the playoffs.

Hope I'm right.

Go Niners.

PS Thank you for your reference to Sybaris. I enjoy reading about Classical Greek and Roman history, but somehow missed that scene.

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Ok. Re. Cousins being another Alex Smith. Smith's (only) problem is his reluctance to push the ball down the field. It's not his interception rate. Cousins is near the top of the league in yards per attempt. I think Smith was ruined by his two first defensive coaches who wouldn't let him throw until third and long, and then blamed him for the loss when he had to press and threw interceptions. Single cell even said "you just don't screw it up, and My defense will win it in the fourth quarter". So that's who he is now. Cousins learned under Kyle. Whole 'nother mindset.

As to the cap, my plan would be to front load the dickens out of the contract, perhaps as much as $35-40m the first year. That serves several purposes. It makes subsequent years very low when like you said the rest of our roster will be more needy. It might be necessary in the event the Skins transition tag him and could match a lower offer. And it means the total contract would be less, because sooner money is worth more than deferred money, and it otherwise just sits in York's bank for that time.

Your solution is to play a vet and draft quarterbacks until one sticks. We agree. That's my solution too. I just don't see why upgrading the vet from Hoyer to Cousins impedes that plan.

I am more optimistic than you, and do think we'll surprise some people with some unexpected wins this year. And Kyle is the reason why. We may have drafted defense at the top, but he brought in some skill people on offense in the off-season I think he can use. And, I think his offense is head and shoulders better than anybody else, and is very hard to defend. Then next year, with Cousins, a big body receiver, and another draft and off season, I think we should make the playoffs.

Hope I'm right.

Go Niners.

This is what I hope for, if KC doesn't sign with Washington. No reason not to upgrade to KC, front load the crap out of it, have Paraag work his contract magic, and keep searching for a FQB at the same time.

Great 49ers gift ideas ⇨

Originally posted by NYniner85:

He wants to reunite with Kyle Shanahan. Short of a stupendous offer from WAS I think it happens next year.

— Benjamin Allbright (@AllbrightNFL) July 11, 2017

If we have a top 3 pick and have Darnold, ROSEN, Allen all declare. Do we sign Kirk still and get a kings ransom for a trade down or draft Rosen hopefully?

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Ok. Re. Cousins being another Alex Smith. Smith's (only) problem is his reluctance to push the ball down the field. It's not his interception rate. Cousins is near the top of the league in yards per attempt. I think Smith was ruined by his two first defensive coaches who wouldn't let him throw until third and long, and then blamed him for the loss when he had to press and threw interceptions. Single cell even said "you just don't screw it up, and My defense will win it in the fourth quarter". So that's who he is now. Cousins learned under Kyle. Whole 'nother mindset.

As to the cap, my plan would be to front load the dickens out of the contract, perhaps as much as $35-40m the first year. That serves several purposes. It makes subsequent years very low when like you said the rest of our roster will be more needy. It might be necessary in the event the Skins transition tag him and could match a lower offer. And it means the total contract would be less, because sooner money is worth more than deferred money, and it otherwise just sits in York's bank for that time.

Your solution is to play a vet and draft quarterbacks until one sticks. We agree. That's my solution too. I just don't see why upgrading the vet from Hoyer to Cousins impedes that plan.

I am more optimistic than you, and do think we'll surprise some people with some unexpected wins this year. And Kyle is the reason why. We may have drafted defense at the top, but he brought in some skill people on offense in the off-season I think he can use. And, I think his offense is head and shoulders better than anybody else, and is very hard to defend. Then next year, with Cousins, a big body receiver, and another draft and off season, I think we should make the playoffs.

Hope I'm right.

Go Niners.

PS Thank you for your reference to Sybaris. I enjoy reading about Classical Greek and Roman history, but somehow missed that scene.

Just touching on Kirk being alex and your point with alex not pushing the ball downfield...

I've posted this article a couple times and it's chalk full of great info regarding Kirk's season last yr.

http://www.espn980.com/2017/01/27/the-truth-about-kirk-cousins-2016-season/

You mentioned yards per attempt

"Yards Per Pass Attempt – Kirk was third in the NFL with an 8.11 YDS/A during the 2016 regular season. He was eighth in the NFL with a 7.67 YDS/A in 2015."

"Kirk led all NFL quarterbacks in Air Yards during the 2016 regular season.

Air Yards are the total yards a football is thrown beyond the line of scrimmage to the point of reception. The number is arrived at by subtracting Yards After Catch (YAC) from total passing yards. The idea with tracking Air Yards is to differentiate between those quarterbacks who are Checkdown Charlies or benefit greatly from YAC from those quarterbacks who "earn" their passing yardage with accurate and downfield throwing. Kirk's 2,939 Air Yards per SportingCharts.com were 143 more than the next-best total (Drew Brees' 2,796). Remember this the next time you hear that Kirk is just a dink-and-dunk passer or is simply a product of the system or his weapons. Kirk was 10th in the NFL in Air Yards in 2015 (2,258)."

People bring up he's the one actually losing games for D.C. (Which is mind boggling to me)

"Total EPA – This is Total Clutch-Weighted Expected Points Added, which is essentially a measure of how much a player contributes to winning. EPA is the measure of a play's impact on the score of the game. Kirk was fifth among NFL quarterbacks with a Total EPA of 97.9 during the 2016 regular season. He was seventh among NFL quarterbacks with a Total EPA of 82.6 in 2015."

And he did all this while facing the the hardest schedule for qbs.

Will he be overpaid if he makes it to FA? Without question...he's not aaron rogers or Brady but will be paid like it, but go look at who's getting paid in FA, everyone is getting overpaid lol. Olivier Vernon is the highest paid 4-3 DE in the league do we think he's the best 4-4 DE? A.J Boyue just got $67.5 million, he got almost twice as much guaranteed money as Sherman. As soon as Kirk gets paid guys like Stafford, ryan, rogers are gonna get more than him.

I agree with front loading the contract cause at this point we don't have any players on our team that are gonna command a massive contract in the next two yrs.

Originally posted by Hysterikal:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

He wants to reunite with Kyle Shanahan. Short of a stupendous offer from WAS I think it happens next year.

— Benjamin Allbright (@AllbrightNFL) July 11, 2017

If we have a top 3 pick and have Darnold, ROSEN, Allen all declare. Do we sign Kirk still and get a kings ransom for a trade down or draft Rosen hopefully?

I'm signing Kirk and trading that pick for a kings ransom...we got a developed/proven QB for at least the next 5 yrs and CJ to grow behind him. We'd be able to rebuild that OL, get a WR, and a pass rusher with the capital we would get and with what we already have. Cheap rookie contracts and really only Kirk as the big cap space.

That would be my preference, but I wouldn't hate drafting one of the top 3 either....fans would need to be patient though cause it would take time for those qbs to transition to Kyle's system.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I'm signing Kirk and trading that pick for a kings ransom...we got a developed/proven QB for at least the next 5 yrs and CJ to grow behind him. We'd be able to rebuild that OL, get a WR, and a pass rusher with the capital we would get and with what we already have. Cheap rookie contracts and really only Kirk as the big cap space.

That would be my preference, but I wouldn't hate drafting one of the top 3 either....fans would need to be patient though cause it would take time for those qbs to transition to Kyle's system.

I'd probably go this route as well. I think those 3 guys have the potential to be studs but we've seen elite level QB prospects bomb before. Cousins is a sure thing and all the draft capital we could get from moving down would make us a better team now and in the future.

Not to mention we could totally luck into a better QB prospect later on and develop him properly without rushing him behind Cousins...all with a better team around him.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Hysterikal:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

He wants to reunite with Kyle Shanahan. Short of a stupendous offer from WAS I think it happens next year.

— Benjamin Allbright (@AllbrightNFL) July 11, 2017

If we have a top 3 pick and have Darnold, ROSEN, Allen all declare. Do we sign Kirk still and get a kings ransom for a trade down or draft Rosen hopefully?

I'm signing Kirk and trading that pick for a kings ransom...we got a developed/proven QB for at least the next 5 yrs and CJ to grow behind him. We'd be able to rebuild that OL, get a WR, and a pass rusher with the capital we would get and with what we already have. Cheap rookie contracts and really only Kirk as the big cap space.

That would be my preference, but I wouldn't hate drafting one of the top 3 either....fans would need to be patient though cause it would take time for those qbs to transition to Kyle's system.

Regarding Hysertikals post, a top 3 pick doesn't guarantee which QB you can get. We may only covet one of those 3.

Regarding your post, too far out from the draft IMO to say we should go all in on a trade down for a big ransom...depends on who else might be available to us with that too 3 pick. But a kings ransom could go a long way for us.

Mark my words, most people will start agreeing with NinerSickness around Week 2 or 3.

It's still the honeymoon phase right now.

I hope they don't put all their eggs into Kirk Cousins. I'd rather them just draft a QB, but considering Kyle Shanahan's taste in QBs and the qualities that he prioritizes (Beathard), maybe he wouldn't even like the top QBs next year, and it concerns me. There is a realistic scenario that we still don't have a QBoTF by the end of the 2018 off season.

Originally posted by Ensatsu:
Mark my words, most people will start agreeing with NinerSickness around Week 2 or 3.

It's still the honeymoon phase right now.

I hope they don't put all their eggs into Kirk Cousins. I'd rather them just draft a QB, but considering Kyle Shanahan's taste in QBs and the qualities that he prioritizes (Beathard), maybe he wouldn't even like the top QBs next year, and it concerns me. There is a realistic scenario that we still don't have a QBoTF by the end of the 2018 off season.

Sure because all the top drafted quarterbacks are where the winners are.

Originally posted by Ensatsu:
Mark my words, most people will start agreeing with NinerSickness around Week 2 or 3.

It's still the honeymoon phase right now.

I hope they don't put all their eggs into Kirk Cousins. I'd rather them just draft a QB, but considering Kyle Shanahan's taste in QBs and the qualities that he prioritizes (Beathard), maybe he wouldn't even like the top QBs next year, and it concerns me. There is a realistic scenario that we still don't have a QBoTF by the end of the 2018 off season.

by week 2 or 3 we're all gonna be so caught up in the performances of this rookie class--Solomon, Foster, Kittle, etc.--that no one will remember or care about this thread or Trubisky, or any other short-sighted nonsense,

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Sure because all the top drafted quarterbacks are where the winners are.

You still have statistically better odds of hitting in the first round.

Or heck, just drafting a QB who has great intermediate accuracy, good arm talent, and mechanics would be a start.

Right now, the Niners just remind me of the Browns last year. Beathard as a player kind of looks like that Cody Kessler pick. Just a project for Kyle and Hue Jackson to fiddle around with.

The question is, what will be the plan for next year? Hopefully not another project player like DeShone Kizer. They need some direction at the QB, and it starts at the top of the first round.

Or I guess in free agency with Kirk, but I wouldn't like it.

Originally posted by Ensatsu:
Mark my words, most people will start agreeing with NinerSickness around Week 2 or 3.

It's still the honeymoon phase right now.

I hope they don't put all their eggs into Kirk Cousins. I'd rather them just draft a QB, but considering Kyle Shanahan's taste in QBs and the qualities that he prioritizes (Beathard), maybe he wouldn't even like the top QBs next year, and it concerns me. There is a realistic scenario that we still don't have a QBoTF by the end of the 2018 off season.

So you think in two weeks everyone is gonna be mad that we didn't draft Mich or hire McDaniels?? cause that was whole pt of the OP lol. It blows my mind that people will pass on a proven NFL caliber QB who's putting up top 10 stats while being bottom of the league in running and defense and yet thinks drafting a QB will automatically be better...give me a the 28 yr old who's just getting into his prime and KNOWS the complex offense vs the 20 yr old who's never even played in the league all day. IF Kirk isn't available then draft one of the guys if Kyle thinks they are the one.

As far as Kyle's "taste" in QBs it's been well documented who he liked an didn't...He didn't want RG3 but pounded the table for Kirk, one is looking to get paid top end money and the other isn't on a team. He wanted Carr and Jimmy G over Manziel, one just got paid $125 million and the other from the looks of it will be taking over for one of the best QBs in history along with getting paid, while Manziel sorted his way out of the league. Hell he even had Cleveland above .500 with Hoyer which IMO is f**king amazing lol.

I don't think there's one smart fan in here that thinks we're gonna be very good next yr, the new staff was left with a burning pile of trash to work with. IMO this thread was created because he doesn't like the HC and was a homer for Mitch.

In two weeks, depending on how Thomas or Mitchell perform, I can definitely see a possibility of there being buyer's remorse.

Even if they're both studs, we'd still lose out since the QB position is more valuable. At this point, Niner fans are just praying that Trubisky is a bust right out of the gate.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
As far as Kyle's "taste" in QBs it's been well documented who he liked an didn't...He didn't want RG3 but pounded the table for Kirk, one is looking to get paid top end money and the other isn't on a team. He wanted Carr and Jimmy G over Manziel, one just got paid $125 million and the other from the looks of it will be taking over for one of the best QBs in history along with getting paid, while Manziel sorted his way out of the league. Hell he even had Cleveland above .500 with Hoyer which IMO is f**king amazing lol.

I'm more referring to his preference for college QBs. Kirk Cousins played in a pro-style system at Michigan State. So did Beathard. He seems to have particular nuances for what he looks for, and disregards many other things that seem like common sense. He'll disregard intermediate accuracy and throw it out, which is why he wanted to draft Beathard. I understand that sometimes accuracy gets inflated with bubble screens and other things, which is what he referred to in press conferences, but that doesn't mean that the whole stat gets thrown out the window. Things need to be taken into context.

This is kind of what I mean by "taste". Which is why I wouldn't be surprised if Kyle isn't even interested in many of the top QB prospects next year, especially if they did not play in a pro style system. So if we somehow suck enough to get the #1 overall pick next year, we still wouldn't draft Sam Darnold. Think about that.

Is that okay with people? Because I imagine that it wouldn't sit well with many fans. We can deny it now, but that's because we're still in the honeymoon phase hoping that this will be our next great head coach. But things might change quickly potentially after a year of losing.