The Iron-Pyrite-Lining Thread (Negative people come on in!)

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

Then there isn't a disagreement here if we're talking the last 2 years. But dog-s**t QB play always makes an OL look worse (Kaepernick).

Yup I was talking about the past two seasons. For sure good QB play and play calling can help with a poor OL.

So when cutler sucked was it the s**tty OL or his poor QB play as well? I mean you can use that same formula on cutler as you're doing with kap.

Like i said both are poor qbs.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by NinerSickness:
He wants to sign Cousins and load up for 2018 when he should be loading up NOW for 2019 & beyond. He's just plugging holes with "meh" players, and that's not going to cut it with Cousins at QB. Garcon, Mitchell, Malcom Smith, Zuttah... That might get it done on the Packers; not the Redskins.

And signing Dumervil was a 2017 move, which only serves to have a worse draft pick next year.

It's all short-term, impatient thinking.

I fail to see how signing players the coaches seemingly wanted and or players who fit the system/schemes being installed and who can provide leadership is a bad thing. Building a long term contender is not going to be done by loading up in one off-season.

None of what you said shows any lack of vision by the men in charge of this organization. Seems your issue is not that they don't have a vision but that you have a diffrence in opinion on how to skin a cat (and there is more than one way to skin a cat) and are frustrated by them not sharing your vision. You have already written off what they are doing before a down has been played seemingly because your blueprint was not followed.

There is nothing wrong with thinking they are not doing this right. But judging by the tone of your posts you seemingly would rather be right than wrong just so you can say I told you so and toot your own horn. It's too early to know if they are building this the right way or not, gonna take at least 2 seasons IMHO to truly know that given the large roster turnover they have begun to implement.

The fact that it appears the FO and coaching staff appear to be on the same page with the players they added and subtracted is an indication of a vision being in place and being followed.

As for Cousins, if this organization pursues him hard then I'd say that Shanahan is clearly behind it and that he sees something the Cousins detractors do not. That wouldn't be all Lynch, and again would indicate they have a vision even if that vision isn't one shared by some.

This "there is no vision" is a bunch of hot air and nothing more.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

He wants to sign Cousins and load up for 2018 when he should be loading up NOW for 2019 & beyond. He's just plugging holes with "meh" players, and that's not going to cut it with Cousins at QB. Garcon, Mitchell, Malcom Smith, Zuttah... That might get it done on the Packers; not the Redskins.

And signing Dumervil was a 2017 move, which only serves to have a worse draft pick next year.

It's all short-term, impatient thinking.

I fail to see how signing players the coaches seemingly wanted and or players who fit the system/schemes being installed and who can provide leadership is a bad thing. Building a long term contender is not going to be done by loading up in one off-season.

None of what you said shows any lack of vision by the men in charge of this organization. Seems your issue is not that they don't have a vision but that you have a diffrence in opinion on how to skin a cat (and there is more than one way to skin a cat) and are frustrated by them not sharing your vision. You have already written off what they are doing before a down has been played seemingly because your blueprint was not followed.

There is nothing wrong with thinking they are not doing this right. But judging by the tone of your posts you seemingly would rather be right than wrong just so you can say I told you so and toot your own horn. It's too early to know if they are building this the right way or not, gonna take at least 2 seasons IMHO to truly know that given the large roster turnover they have begun to implement.

The fact that it appears the FO and coaching staff appear to be on the same page with the players they added and subtracted is an indication of a vision being in place and being followed.

As for Cousins, if this organization pursues him hard then I'd say that Shanahan is clearly behind it and that he sees something the Cousins detractors do not. That wouldn't be all Lynch, and again would indicate they have a vision even if that vision isn't one shared by some.

This "there is no vision" is a bunch of hot air and nothing more.

Yep. The only thing I'm going to disagree with is that it's going to take two years to judge if we're making progress.

Here's what normally happens when a good coaching staff takes over a weak roster. You get flashes of brilliance, but there are also breakdowns. So no, you may not know you are heading for greatness on the initial won/loss record, but you can see what will happen once the team fills those breakdown holes.

I vividly remember telling my neighbor after the 1980 season to watch out for the Niners next year. Of course he didn't think there was any chance, but I had seen us come back from four touchdowns down on New Orleans. We won the Super Bowl the next year.

If we see those flashes this year, even with Hoyer under center, watch out! One more year will fill most of those holes, including a tough determined quarterback equipped to win now.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

So when cutler sucked was it the s**tty OL or his poor QB play as well? I mean you can use that same formula on cutler as you're doing with kap.

Cutler never sucked nearly as badly as Kaepernick did after the league figured out his 1-read-and-run routine.

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

Cutler never sucked nearly as badly as Kaepernick did after the league figured out his 1-read-and-run routine.

Cutler was a turnover machine and could never stay healthy....last I checked neither guy is on a team and cutler has one playoff win in his career.

Like I said both are poor qbs and aren't on a team for various reasons. Really don't care about talking about to subpar qbs.

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

So when cutler sucked was it the s**tty OL or his poor QB play as well? I mean you can use that same formula on cutler as you're doing with kap.

Cutler never sucked nearly as badly as Kaepernick did after the league figured out his 1-read-and-run routine.

Outstanding. First time i ever agreed with anything Sickness has said. Problem is tho when you have two horrible qBs like kap and cutler, it is foolish to try and compare who was the worst of the worst. They both were awful. Leave it at that.

And to NY's post above , excellent. Well said.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

Cutler never sucked nearly as badly as Kaepernick did after the league figured out his 1-read-and-run routine.

Cutler was a turnover machine and could never stay healthy....last I checked neither guy is on a team and cutler has one playoff win in his career.

Like I said both are poor qbs and aren't on a team for various reasons. Really don't care about talking about to subpar qbs.

And worst of all...... OVER PAID

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

He wants to sign Cousins and load up for 2018 when he should be loading up NOW for 2019 & beyond. He's just plugging holes with "meh" players, and that's not going to cut it with Cousins at QB. Garcon, Mitchell, Malcom Smith, Zuttah... That might get it done on the Packers; not the Redskins.

And signing Dumervil was a 2017 move, which only serves to have a worse draft pick next year.

It's all short-term, impatient thinking.

I fail to see how signing players the coaches seemingly wanted and or players who fit the system/schemes being installed and who can provide leadership is a bad thing. Building a long term contender is not going to be done by loading up in one off-season.

That's exactly my point! Lynch is thinking too short term. And "fit" and "leadership" don't mean s**t if you have mediocre talent level. And a QB like Cousins is gong to need talent like Peyton Manning had with the Broncos his SB year. Guys like Zuttah, Malcom Smith, Garcon (as a #1) & declining Dumervil are not going to cut it. In fact, the 49ers with Cousins should expect about the same result as the 2017 Redskins produce.

Again I perceive your point as that you dislike some of the players added. But none of that shows short term thinking, it shows a diffrent approach to how you would have liked to have seen things done.

Short term thinking is just more hot air IMHO.

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

He wants to sign Cousins and load up for 2018 when he should be loading up NOW for 2019 & beyond. He's just plugging holes with "meh" players, and that's not going to cut it with Cousins at QB. Garcon, Mitchell, Malcom Smith, Zuttah... That might get it done on the Packers; not the Redskins.

And signing Dumervil was a 2017 move, which only serves to have a worse draft pick next year.

It's all short-term, impatient thinking.

I fail to see how signing players the coaches seemingly wanted and or players who fit the system/schemes being installed and who can provide leadership is a bad thing. Building a long term contender is not going to be done by loading up in one off-season.

That's exactly my point! Lynch is thinking too short term. And "fit" and "leadership" don't mean s**t if you have mediocre talent level. And a QB like Cousins is gong to need talent like Peyton Manning had with the Broncos his SB year. Guys like Zuttah, Malcom Smith, Garcon (as a #1) & declining Dumervil are not going to cut it. In fact, the 49ers with Cousins should expect about the same result as the 2017 Redskins produce.

Again I perceive your point as that you dislike some of the players added. But none of that shows short term thinking, it shows a diffrent approach to how you would have liked to have seen things done.

Short term thinking is just more hot air IMHO.

If getting better at nearly every position is not a good way at getting better then I don't want to get that sickness

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

That's exactly my point! Lynch is thinking too short term. And "fit" and "leadership" don't mean s**t if you have mediocre talent level. And a QB like Cousins is gong to need talent like Peyton Manning had with the Broncos his SB year. Guys like Zuttah, Malcom Smith, Garcon (as a #1) & declining Dumervil are not going to cut it. In fact, the 49ers with Cousins should expect about the same result as the 2017 Redskins produce.

Still finding it difficult to follow your line of thinking. Long term success is to be built through the draft. How is signing mediocre talent, on short term affordable deals in free agency counter to long term thinking? Do you think lynch signed garcon thinking we win the next 2 super bowls?

You NEED 90 players going into camp, and you NEED 53 players on your roster. Would you rather have garcon, mitchell, dumervile, Smith, zuttah, or Patton, purcell, TJE, willhoite, and MM. Upgrading did NOTHING to hurt the team long term. However they help by:

Garcon: install the offense for the WR obtained this off season and next. Be a reliable target for development of a QB.

Mitchell: actually not be a complete 100% liability so our young DL can mesh and focus on their jobs.

Dumervile: teach our passrushers what it means to be successful

Smith: help teach the system to bowman, and, more importantly, Foster. I also feel much better with Smith as depth vs willhoite or Bellore.

Zuttah: not be a complete turnstile so our offense can actually focus on growing and meshing.

So please, if you're gonna say signing these players is detrimental to our long term success, please provide a reason with substance, instead of only your scouting report on Kirk Cousins

Originally posted by adrianlesnar:

Originally posted by NinerSickness:
That's exactly my point! Lynch is thinking too short term. And "fit" and "leadership" don't mean s**t if you have mediocre talent level. And a QB like Cousins is gong to need talent like Peyton Manning had with the Broncos his SB year. Guys like Zuttah, Malcom Smith, Garcon (as a #1) & declining Dumervil are not going to cut it. In fact, the 49ers with Cousins should expect about the same result as the 2017 Redskins produce.

Still finding it difficult to follow your line of thinking. Long term success is to be built through the draft. How is signing mediocre talent, on short term affordable deals in free agency counter to long term thinking? Do you think lynch signed garcon thinking we win the next 2 super bowls?

I think Lynch's plan is Cousins to Garcon for a SB win, and I think it's a s**t plan.

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

I think Lynch's plan is Cousins to Garcon for a SB win, and I think it's a s**t plan.

Or cousins to Christin Kirk, Sutton, Ridley, AJ, Pryor, Robinson, Moncrief (who I hope we go after in FA), Watkins etc....

Exapand your mind a little we have 5 top 100 picks and a possibility of $115 million in cap space.

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

Originally posted by adrianlesnar:

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

That's exactly my point! Lynch is thinking too short term. And "fit" and "leadership" don't mean s**t if you have mediocre talent level. And a QB like Cousins is gong to need talent like Peyton Manning had with the Broncos his SB year. Guys like Zuttah, Malcom Smith, Garcon (as a #1) & declining Dumervil are not going to cut it. In fact, the 49ers with Cousins should expect about the same result as the 2017 Redskins produce.

Still finding it difficult to follow your line of thinking. Long term success is to be built through the draft. How is signing mediocre talent, on short term affordable deals in free agency counter to long term thinking? Do you think lynch signed garcon thinking we win the next 2 super bowls?

I think Lynch's plan is Cousins to Garcon for a SB win, and I think it's a s**t plan.

I see nothing that Lynch has said anywhere to indicate he thinks we are going to the Super Bowl at the end of next season. Quite the opposite, in fact. Lynch is building for the long term and has made that point time after time. Lynch knows there is no guarantee that Cousins will ever put on a 49ers shirt. Your comment that it is Lynch's plan and it is s**t is completely null and void. There is no evidence that it is his plan, if he has considered it there is no evidence that it is not merely one option amongst dozens in his mind and absolutely no indication at all that he believes it would win him a Super Bowl.

How can anyone not love English. Rule Britannia!

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

I think Lynch's plan is Cousins to Garcon for a SB win, and I think it's a s**t plan.

Or cousins to Christin Kirk, Sutton, Ridley, AJ, Pryor, Robinson, Moncrief (who I hope we go after in FA), Watkins etc....

Exapand your mind a little we have 5 top 100 picks and a possibility of $115 million in cap space.

This. Where has it been stated that with the addition of Garcon, we are now done rebuilding the receiving core? You can't rebuild an entire roster in one season. What you can do though is start offloading ineffective players and begin your rebuild by bringing in players on both sides of the ball that can begin assisting with the installation of the team's new offensive and defensive schemes. This team has been through four different schemes in the last four years on both sides of the ball. People should let that sink in for a moment. Kyle Shanahan also has one of the more complicated offenses in the NFL. Bringing in a crop of people that can help ease the younger players into the new scheme was smart imo. There is no way Garcon was added as the final piece to the puzzle of the receivers. Our receiving depth was awful coming into this off-season. Rebuilding that position has just started.