Injuries - 9-Year Analysis

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Heavy focus on the pass protection when they aren't getting his ankle almost broken.

Broken, would be Jimmy and Trey. But true. There's still no guarantee. You're simply trying to improve the odds.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
I posted this in the wrong thread.

Hi NC, I read an interesting post in another teams bulletin board, I think its the Patriots board. I tried looking for it again to link here, but can't find it. Anyway... here is the idea:

One of the reasons Kyle Shanahan's QBs get injured is because he doesn't run a true West coast short passing game (a la Bill Walsh) duh! 😋 what Kyle runs is actually more of an air Coryell *heavy play action* run dominant passing game. The explosive plays that Kyle always talks about is more akin to the air Coryell long ball plays based off play acrion runs which requires the QB to hold the ball longer for those long developing plays to occur. Hence the injuries to the QB - because he has to hold the ball longer and will get hit harder on those long developing plays.

The conclusion I came away with was that, Joe and Steve were relatively healthy in their careers because they didn't hold the ball too long. Basically they ran a 3 and 5 step drop patterns typical of Walsh. Whereas Kyle's QBs are required to hold the ball longer. (Example, Those TE and WR crossing patterns after a play pass boot) So the answer to the QB injury problems might be Brock himself, if Kyle can go to a more short passing game and have Purdy get rid of the ball quicker - that might preserve his health better. (As well as getting some quality OLinemen etc...)

I still remember a Scangarello quote where he said in Kyles system, he likes QBs that can stand in there and take the hit after a pass. That definitely doesn't sound like a Bill Walsh concept because Walsh wanted the QB to get rid of the ball quickly. The nice thing about Kyle's system is that he can easily switch to a much shorter passing game and easily have Purdy take shorter drops. Key here is Purdy's ability to pass. That is why I think there was a stretch of weeks last year where the 49ers didn't get any serious injuries. (1) both Jimmy and Brock took shorter drops, or were able to get rid of the ball quicker, because of CMC (2) Brock being able to escape the hit due to his elusiveness.

Patrick Mahomes has been relatively healthy and durable, and I think one reason is Reid has stayed true to the Walsh - get rid of the ball quickly - offense. Anyway looking forward to the criticisms of this idea.

Sorry, there's a lot to unpack here.

I see what you mean about the scheme...the long developing pass plays that put strain on the unit pass protection. I believe that's what you meant. I've always called Kyle's system to flip side of the WCO. Same terminology but philosophically, it's run to set up the pass. It's still pretty conservative...usually ball control, TOP control and just a couple shot plays dialed up. Heavy focus on 3rd downs via the short game and keeping the chains moving. Old 9er teams also had top 5 defenses.

Agreed about PM. He only rushes for a few hundred yards a year so WHEN he does, it's like Steve Young...back breaker for defenses. QB friendly system, Reid exploits every defensive weakness, heavy focus on the OL and pass protection, etc.

Yes, you got my points. Kyle's long developing pass plays do (I think) put a strain on the pass protection unit. Ried's system, I think, maybe is more QB friendly? Reid's offensive scheme - i think - is very Air Raid-ish kind of offense. Or possibly A west coast spread offense. Whereas Kyle's system is more run based zone run offense that beautifully matches the naked boots and play action passes to his outside zone runs. I think it's more heavily play action than the other WCO versions (like Fat Andy's). I think Tua Tagogovialoa got hurt in Mike McDaniels offense in Miami too. I don't think that's a random event, but rather possibly tied to the Play action scheme that McDaniel adopted from Kyle.

I think it's also a function of a QB getting hit while attempting to pass. When a QB is passing, he's not really in a position to protect himself to absorb the hit. I think you have to have the offensive linemen to prevent the QB from generally getting hit as much as possible. We always hear about QB pressure and QB hits - and I think there should be some study about how many times a QB (On average) gets injured from a QB hit on drop back passes. Size may be a factor also, all things being equal, bigger bones and ligaments handle strains and shocks better than smaller bones and ligaments - so if you look at Tom Brady (6'4") maybe his size protected him from a lot of injury vs Purdy who is 6'1".

If a QB is injured in the pocket more often than not (just assuming that here vs a running QB) then it makes sense to have a system or the personnel to limit those QB hits in the pocket as much as possible to lower the *risk* of a QB being injured in the pocket. As NY85 always says, this is football, it's typical of football players to get injured. If so, then why not limit QB hits as much as possible schematically *and* via better OLine personnel -- specially when the QB is such an important piece of winning games.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
I posted this in the wrong thread.

Hi NC, I read an interesting post in another teams bulletin board, I think its the Patriots board. I tried looking for it again to link here, but can't find it. Anyway... here is the idea:

One of the reasons Kyle Shanahan's QBs get injured is because he doesn't run a true West coast short passing game (a la Bill Walsh) duh! 😋 what Kyle runs is actually more of an air Coryell *heavy play action* run dominant passing game. The explosive plays that Kyle always talks about is more akin to the air Coryell long ball plays based off play acrion runs which requires the QB to hold the ball longer for those long developing plays to occur. Hence the injuries to the QB - because he has to hold the ball longer and will get hit harder on those long developing plays.

The conclusion I came away with was that, Joe and Steve were relatively healthy in their careers because they didn't hold the ball too long. Basically they ran a 3 and 5 step drop patterns typical of Walsh. Whereas Kyle's QBs are required to hold the ball longer. (Example, Those TE and WR crossing patterns after a play pass boot) So the answer to the QB injury problems might be Brock himself, if Kyle can go to a more short passing game and have Purdy get rid of the ball quicker - that might preserve his health better. (As well as getting some quality OLinemen etc...)

I still remember a Scangarello quote where he said in Kyles system, he likes QBs that can stand in there and take the hit after a pass. That definitely doesn't sound like a Bill Walsh concept because Walsh wanted the QB to get rid of the ball quickly. The nice thing about Kyle's system is that he can easily switch to a much shorter passing game and easily have Purdy take shorter drops. Key here is Purdy's ability to pass. That is why I think there was a stretch of weeks last year where the 49ers didn't get any serious injuries. (1) both Jimmy and Brock took shorter drops, or were able to get rid of the ball quicker, because of CMC (2) Brock being able to escape the hit due to his elusiveness.

Patrick Mahomes has been relatively healthy and durable, and I think one reason is Reid has stayed true to the Walsh - get rid of the ball quickly - offense. Anyway looking forward to the criticisms of this idea.

Sorry, there's a lot to unpack here.

I see what you mean about the scheme...the long developing pass plays that put strain on the unit pass protection. I believe that's what you meant. I've always called Kyle's system to flip side of the WCO. Same terminology but philosophically, it's run to set up the pass. It's still pretty conservative...usually ball control, TOP control and just a couple shot plays dialed up. Heavy focus on 3rd downs via the short game and keeping the chains moving. Old 9er teams also had top 5 defenses.

Agreed about PM. He only rushes for a few hundred yards a year so WHEN he does, it's like Steve Young...back breaker for defenses. QB friendly system, Reid exploits every defensive weakness, heavy focus on the OL and pass protection, etc.

Yes, you got my points. Kyle's long developing pass plays do (I think) put a strain on the pass protection unit. Ried's system, I think, maybe is more QB friendly? Reid's offensive scheme - i think - is very Air Raid-ish kind of offense. Or possibly A west coast spread offense. Whereas Kyle's system is more run based zone run offense that beautifully matches the naked boots and play action passes to his outside zone runs. I think it's more heavily play action than the other WCO versions (like Fat Andy's). I think Tua Tagogovialoa got hurt in Mike McDaniels offense in Miami too. I don't think that's a random event, but rather possibly tied to the Play action scheme that McDaniel adopted from Kyle.

I think it's also a function of a QB getting hit while attempting to pass. When a QB is passing, he's not really in a position to protect himself to absorb the hit. I think you have to have the offensive linemen to prevent the QB from generally getting hit as much as possible. We always hear about QB pressure and QB hits - and I think there should be some study about how many times a QB (On average) gets injured from a QB hit on drop back passes. Size may be a factor also, all things being equal, bigger bones and ligaments handle strains and shocks better than smaller bones and ligaments - so if you look at Tom Brady (6'4") maybe his size protected him from a lot of injury vs Purdy who is 6'1".

If a QB is injured in the pocket more often than not (just assuming that here vs a running QB) then it makes sense to have a system or the personnel to limit those QB hits in the pocket as much as possible to lower the *risk* of a QB being injured in the pocket. As NY85 always says, this is football, it's typical of football players to get injured. If so, then why not limit QB hits as much as possible schematically *and* via better OLine personnel -- specially when the QB is such an important piece of winning games.

It's pretty hard to pin down like you're attempting here. His system is QB-friendly in that because of his X's and O's acumen, the QB doesn't have to think as much and just execute because that primary is going to be open so much. The flip side is it takes a ton of trust in that system to stand in there and get blasted so often because some of those X's and O's take longer to develop and unit pass protection has not been a top priority in his team building strategy. Philosophically, it's kind of the opposite of Walsh's short pass to set up the run, like you said.

I'm just glad pros are starting to shed some additional light into how scheme/design/coaching can contribute to a long-standing, league-leading injury epidemic as well. It's not just us considering that as a contributor anymore.

Originally posted by NCommand:
It's pretty hard to pin down like you're attempting here. His system is QB-friendly in that because of his X's and O's acumen, the QB doesn't have to think as much and just execute because that primary is going to be open so much. The flip side is it takes a ton of trust in that system to stand in there and get blasted so often because some of those X's and O's take longer to develop and unit pass protection has not been a top priority in his team building strategy. Philosophically, it's kind of the opposite of Walsh's short pass to set up the run, like you said.

I'm just glad pros are starting to shed some additional light into how scheme/design/coaching can contribute to a long-standing, league-leading injury epidemic as well. It's not just us considering that as a contributor anymore.

Agree 💯%. I've been rummaging around the internet for injury information and articles. I'm staying out of the QB threads for the moment, I find them so repetitive. (what else is new )

Here is an article with some juicy nuggets while I continue my research.

JC Tretter, center, Cleveland Browns: In Green Bay [where Tretter played from 2013 to '16], as linemen we had an Aaron Rodgers Rule: hold your blocks forever. There will be times where it's like, "Hey, this is a three-step drop-back [and the play is still going on]?" I just blocked for as long as I could. I never thought, "Well, the ball should be gone." There were times Aaron would come in the huddle and say, "Hey, right-side O-line: Make sure you get beat inside on this play—I'm rolling out right." That was a unique way to start my career, the way he would backyard football it. You're like, That's not a great look for me. . . . Then he rolls out and hits a crosser in the middle of the field, wide open. It's fun to play with him that way.
[...]
Arians: Andrew threw an interception [in 2012, when Arians coached the Colts], and then he went down and laid out the guy who intercepted it. And I told him, "We never tackle with our [throwing] shoulder." He said, "I throw the interception, I make the tackle." And I said, "No, you don't. Just get down. If you're the last line of defense, grab him by the face mask. I don't care."
[...]
Arians: Sometimes you use your bravado as a young player to win over your locker room, show them you're tough. I think of Carson Wentz right away. Luck. You do some things in your first few years you probably wouldn't do in your fourth and fifth, when you have the respect of your locker room and don't have to prove to your teammates that you're tough anymore.
[...]
Jackson: It's really all about the protection. You must make sure their best rusher doesn't get to your guy. That's the goal at the end of the day, that you're able to stop the Von Millers or the Terrell Suggses of the world.
[...]
Reich: Especially early in the game, it's very important to get the ball out quick. Let the defense know that it's going to be a long day. Let them think: We can't get to him; they've got all this quick rhythm-type stuff. They start to panic a little, get discouraged. They lose a bit of their edge
https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/08/24/nfl-qb-quarterback-injuries-prevention-andrew-luck-matthew-stafford-eli-manning-bruce-arians

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:
It's pretty hard to pin down like you're attempting here. His system is QB-friendly in that because of his X's and O's acumen, the QB doesn't have to think as much and just execute because that primary is going to be open so much. The flip side is it takes a ton of trust in that system to stand in there and get blasted so often because some of those X's and O's take longer to develop and unit pass protection has not been a top priority in his team building strategy. Philosophically, it's kind of the opposite of Walsh's short pass to set up the run, like you said.

I'm just glad pros are starting to shed some additional light into how scheme/design/coaching can contribute to a long-standing, league-leading injury epidemic as well. It's not just us considering that as a contributor anymore.

Agree 💯%. I've been rummaging around the internet for injury information and articles. I'm staying out of the QB threads for the moment, I find them so repetitive. (what else is new )

Here is an article with some juicy nuggets while I continue my research.

JC Tretter, center, Cleveland Browns: In Green Bay [where Tretter played from 2013 to '16], as linemen we had an Aaron Rodgers Rule: hold your blocks forever. There will be times where it's like, "Hey, this is a three-step drop-back [and the play is still going on]?" I just blocked for as long as I could. I never thought, "Well, the ball should be gone." There were times Aaron would come in the huddle and say, "Hey, right-side O-line: Make sure you get beat inside on this play—I'm rolling out right." That was a unique way to start my career, the way he would backyard football it. You're like, That's not a great look for me. . . . Then he rolls out and hits a crosser in the middle of the field, wide open. It's fun to play with him that way.
[...]
Arians: Andrew threw an interception [in 2012, when Arians coached the Colts], and then he went down and laid out the guy who intercepted it. And I told him, "We never tackle with our [throwing] shoulder." He said, "I throw the interception, I make the tackle." And I said, "No, you don't. Just get down. If you're the last line of defense, grab him by the face mask. I don't care."
[...]
Arians: Sometimes you use your bravado as a young player to win over your locker room, show them you're tough. I think of Carson Wentz right away. Luck. You do some things in your first few years you probably wouldn't do in your fourth and fifth, when you have the respect of your locker room and don't have to prove to your teammates that you're tough anymore.
[...]
Jackson: It's really all about the protection. You must make sure their best rusher doesn't get to your guy. That's the goal at the end of the day, that you're able to stop the Von Millers or the Terrell Suggses of the world.
[...]
Reich: Especially early in the game, it's very important to get the ball out quick. Let the defense know that it's going to be a long day. Let them think: We can't get to him; they've got all this quick rhythm-type stuff. They start to panic a little, get discouraged. They lose a bit of their edge
https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/08/24/nfl-qb-quarterback-injuries-prevention-andrew-luck-matthew-stafford-eli-manning-bruce-arians

Awesome stuff here

I think all our injury woes is due to the style of play we have been playing-including Harbaughs time. Smash mouth on both sides of the ball. We could play smash mouth in Bill Walsh's day. But we were (and some may not like this) more finesse. On offense only Roger Craig was any semblance of smash mouth.

Either that or the grounds are cursed...they should get someone to bless the stadium, practice fields and players every year-hey couldn't hurt.

This thread actually made it to page 4.

Welcome back. Right on time.

https://www.49erswebzone.com/articles/171248-shanahan-provides-injury-updates-preseason-finale-rookies-season/

Originally posted by NCommand:
This thread actually made it to page 4.

Welcome back. Right on time.

https://www.49erswebzone.com/articles/171248-shanahan-provides-injury-updates-preseason-finale-rookies-season/

Nothing makes ya happier than those updates

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
This thread actually made it to page 4.

Welcome back. Right on time.

https://www.49erswebzone.com/articles/171248-shanahan-provides-injury-updates-preseason-finale-rookies-season/

Nothing makes ya happier than those updates

Yup.

Originally posted by NCommand:
This thread actually made it to page 4.

Welcome back. Right on time.

https://www.49erswebzone.com/articles/171248-shanahan-provides-injury-updates-preseason-finale-rookies-season/

I hate this thread. When it pops up on the first page I get PSTD about - oh which of our QB's is injured again? Lots of injuries last night, but none (as far as I could tell) to our QB's.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
This thread actually made it to page 4.

Welcome back. Right on time.

https://www.49erswebzone.com/articles/171248-shanahan-provides-injury-updates-preseason-finale-rookies-season/

Nothing makes ya happier than those updates

Guy is so happy lol

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
This thread actually made it to page 4.

Welcome back. Right on time.

https://www.49erswebzone.com/articles/171248-shanahan-provides-injury-updates-preseason-finale-rookies-season/

Nothing makes ya happier than those updates

Guy is so happy lol

Super thrilled. I was excited about Latu too. Next.

Originally posted by Giedi:
I hate this thread. When it pops up on the first page I get PSTD about - oh which of our QB's is injured again? Lots of injuries last night, but none (as far as I could tell) to our QB's.

We're used to it by now. Ha.

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Guy is so happy lol

Injuries, much like pressures, only happen in SF.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
I hate this thread. When it pops up on the first page I get PSTD about - oh which of our QB's is injured again? Lots of injuries last night, but none (as far as I could tell) to our QB's.

We're used to it by now. Ha.

yeah, you almost have to expect it. Kyle just has to load up on the back end of the team and hope that those injuries uncover diamonds in the rough like Purdy and Elijah.