Coaches Film Analysis: 2017 Season

Originally posted by jonnydel:

That's what's been hard for me to tell. From some of Shanny's press conferences it sounds like he isn't being elementary. But like you said, on film how he(CJ) goes about it seems like it could be. Though, I do tend to think since CJ came from am offense that wasn't near what Shanny's and CJ just isn't there yet. He's a rook though.

This is off topic but how did you like Harbaughs offense?

Originally posted by jgarf08:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

That's what's been hard for me to tell. From some of Shanny's press conferences it sounds like he isn't being elementary. But like you said, on film how he(CJ) goes about it seems like it could be. Though, I do tend to think since CJ came from am offense that wasn't near what Shanny's and CJ just isn't there yet. He's a rook though.

This is off topic but how did you like Harbaughs offense?

Good question. There were elements I absolutely loved. Some of wrinkles they had from time to time was absolutely genius both in the run and pass game. The run game was consistent and the QB run game they eventually installed was a good change up, although done incorrectly at times and I am still under the belief they never actually "read" any thing, I think they were called not a true zone-read for the QB.

I think ultimately where Roman and company struggled was relying too much on horizontal stretches in the pass game, which is not an uncommon fault in all west coast offenses. But towards the end of their tenure, even before the wheels fell off teams sat tight with their underneath coverage, blanketing concepts.

I would also say they became very predictable, certain pers and sets were auto run/pass formations the defense keyed on. It got to a point where I could call out the play just from seeing the alignment. And a sense of stubborness in the play calling with a lack of adjustment.

I know better to get into the QB play debate, but I think the coaching staff has a fair amount of blame in that. Long story short I wasn't devastated when Harbaugh left. I have some good insider stories about Harbaugh but I'll save those for another time.

I would have liked to see how 2013 would have played out if Crabs wouldn't have shredded his Achilles. The thought of having a healthy Crabtree and Boldin paired with Vernon woulda been pretty nice. I think if this would have played out they 12-4 record is more like a 13-3/14-2 type season which means the final game at the stick would have been the Conference title game.

Now there's a scenario in my mind that drools over the thought of having Kyle as OC and QB coach starting in 2014 with Harbs still being HC. I'm a big Kyle guy though, so ultimately I'm glad where we are now.

Originally posted by susweel:
CJ leaving plays on the field. Hopefully jg can get those.

glad you made it

Originally posted by jgarf08:

Good question. There were elements I absolutely loved. Some of wrinkles they had from time to time was absolutely genius both in the run and pass game. The run game was consistent and the QB run game they eventually installed was a good change up, although done incorrectly at times and I am still under the belief they never actually "read" any thing, I think they were called not a true zone-read for the QB.

I think ultimately where Roman and company struggled was relying too much on horizontal stretches in the pass game, which is not an uncommon fault in all west coast offenses. But towards the end of their tenure, even before the wheels fell off teams sat tight with their underneath coverage, blanketing concepts.

I would also say they became very predictable, certain pers and sets were auto run/pass formations the defense keyed on. It got to a point where I could call out the play just from seeing the alignment. And a sense of stubborness in the play calling with a lack of adjustment.

I know better to get into the QB play debate, but I think the coaching staff has a fair amount of blame in that. Long story short I wasn't devastated when Harbaugh left. I have some good insider stories about Harbaugh but I'll save those for another time.

Great stuff! thanks for the hard work!

Originally posted by jgarf08:
Good question. There were elements I absolutely loved. Some of wrinkles they had from time to time was absolutely genius both in the run and pass game. The run game was consistent and the QB run game they eventually installed was a good change up, although done incorrectly at times and I am still under the belief they never actually "read" any thing, I think they were called not a true zone-read for the QB.

I think ultimately where Roman and company struggled was relying too much on horizontal stretches in the pass game, which is not an uncommon fault in all west coast offenses. But towards the end of their tenure, even before the wheels fell off teams sat tight with their underneath coverage, blanketing concepts.

I would also say they became very predictable, certain pers and sets were auto run/pass formations the defense keyed on. It got to a point where I could call out the play just from seeing the alignment. And a sense of stubborness in the play calling with a lack of adjustment.

I know better to get into the QB play debate, but I think the coaching staff has a fair amount of blame in that. Long story short I wasn't devastated when Harbaugh left. I have some good insider stories about Harbaugh but I'll save those for another time.

That's interesting. I was having a discussion on here after Harbaugh got axed because a lot of people were saying it wasn't a "true WCO" and it didn't have enough horizontal stretching. I felt like what I was seeing on film was still a lot of WC staples and especially the last year we were doing a lot of horizontal because that's what fit our personnel better. We had Crabs, Boldin and S. Johnson as our receivers. Those are all guys that work really well underneath but aren't take the top off guys.

That, and it seemed like the first 6 games of the last year we tried to do a lot of dual concept, full field stuff but we kept missing open receivers a lot so they went to more half field reads.

I felt like one of the biggest issues as well during that time was not having our offense on time on plays. Being a great WCO QB is tough sledding because it's so predicated on timing. That ball has to be coming out on time every time or what is designed to be a 12 yard gain is only a 4 yard gain.

I loved HaRo's run game if for nothing else than the sheer complexity of it. It gave so much to defend and they found ways to isolate certain players.

All that to say though, I enjoy watching Shanny's offense more. There's just more layers to most things. I can definitely see how it took Matt Ryan a full year just to learn the system before he could really take off.

I don't know if you've ever looked through some of Mike Shanahan's playbooks but it's pretty incredible. I was amazed at the route tree he had. IIRC it was 56 different routes for WR's and 54 different routes for TE's.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

That's interesting. I was having a discussion on here after Harbaugh got axed because a lot of people were saying it wasn't a "true WCO" and it didn't have enough horizontal stretching. I felt like what I was seeing on film was still a lot of WC staples and especially the last year we were doing a lot of horizontal because that's what fit our personnel better. We had Crabs, Boldin and S. Johnson as our receivers. Those are all guys that work really well underneath but aren't take the top off guys.

That, and it seemed like the first 6 games of the last year we tried to do a lot of dual concept, full field stuff but we kept missing open receivers a lot so they went to more half field reads.

I felt like one of the biggest issues as well during that time was not having our offense on time on plays. Being a great WCO QB is tough sledding because it's so predicated on timing. That ball has to be coming out on time every time or what is designed to be a 12 yard gain is only a 4 yard gain.

I loved HaRo's run game if for nothing else than the sheer complexity of it. It gave so much to defend and they found ways to isolate certain players.

All that to say though, I enjoy watching Shanny's offense more. There's just more layers to most things. I can definitely see how it took Matt Ryan a full year just to learn the system before he could really take off.

I don't know if you've ever looked through some of Mike Shanahan's playbooks but it's pretty incredible. I was amazed at the route tree he had. IIRC it was 56 different routes for WR's and 54 different routes for TE's.

You mean these
WR

TE

Backs


These are from 2004 Shanny book.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

That's interesting. I was having a discussion on here after Harbaugh got axed because a lot of people were saying it wasn't a "true WCO" and it didn't have enough horizontal stretching. I felt like what I was seeing on film was still a lot of WC staples and especially the last year we were doing a lot of horizontal because that's what fit our personnel better. We had Crabs, Boldin and S. Johnson as our receivers. Those are all guys that work really well underneath but aren't take the top off guys.

That, and it seemed like the first 6 games of the last year we tried to do a lot of dual concept, full field stuff but we kept missing open receivers a lot so they went to more half field reads.

I felt like one of the biggest issues as well during that time was not having our offense on time on plays. Being a great WCO QB is tough sledding because it's so predicated on timing. That ball has to be coming out on time every time or what is designed to be a 12 yard gain is only a 4 yard gain.

I loved HaRo's run game if for nothing else than the sheer complexity of it. It gave so much to defend and they found ways to isolate certain players.

All that to say though, I enjoy watching Shanny's offense more. There's just more layers to most things. I can definitely see how it took Matt Ryan a full year just to learn the system before he could really take off.

I don't know if you've ever looked through some of Mike Shanahan's playbooks but it's pretty incredible. I was amazed at the route tree he had. IIRC it was 56 different routes for WR's and 54 different routes for TE's.

You mean these
WR

TE

Backs


These are from 2004 Shanny book.

Yeeeuppp, that be it

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Yeeeuppp, that be it

I like how the running back tree shows both the split back and far formation......oh how I love those old school flat stacked backfields

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Yeeeuppp, that be it

Wow! I thought there were supposed to be 9 routes!!!!! I bet that limited which offensive players they could take, you'd need to be ridiculously football smart and work really hard.

Does anyone know if Kyle does this? Or is it all combos and concepts?

Originally posted by jonnydel:
That's interesting. I was having a discussion on here after Harbaugh got axed because a lot of people were saying it wasn't a "true WCO" and it didn't have enough horizontal stretching. I felt like what I was seeing on film was still a lot of WC staples and especially the last year we were doing a lot of horizontal because that's what fit our personnel better. We had Crabs, Boldin and S. Johnson as our receivers. Those are all guys that work really well underneath but aren't take the top off guys.

That, and it seemed like the first 6 games of the last year we tried to do a lot of dual concept, full field stuff but we kept missing open receivers a lot so they went to more half field reads.

I felt like one of the biggest issues as well during that time was not having our offense on time on plays. Being a great WCO QB is tough sledding because it's so predicated on timing. That ball has to be coming out on time every time or what is designed to be a 12 yard gain is only a 4 yard gain.

I loved HaRo's run game if for nothing else than the sheer complexity of it. It gave so much to defend and they found ways to isolate certain players.

All that to say though, I enjoy watching Shanny's offense more. There's just more layers to most things. I can definitely see how it took Matt Ryan a full year just to learn the system before he could really take off.

I don't know if you've ever looked through some of Mike Shanahan's playbooks but it's prI thetty incredible. I was amazed at the route tree he had. IIRC it was 56 different routes for WR's and 54 different routes for TE's.

I enjoy Shanahan's offense a ton, really big fan. I like how it has evolved from his Dad's offense taking in some of the Martz, spread, and traditional philosophy. Which kind of goes back to our discussion to the pass game being somewhat vanilla with CJ in the way they are teaching it but also in the limited amount of concepts they are running. Seems to me Kyle is running the same 6-8 concepts out of a lot of different looks, I think there's more in the closet. I think with as much debate there is on this forum, everyone can agree its nice having Kyle's offensive mind with the 49ers.

You're right with the timing being essential in the WCO offense and that was certainly issue. I also think there was no pass game identity with Kap. They tried west coast, vertical, and majority of the time settled on horizontal stretch. Still wish they used some more pocket movement with Kap but oh well.

This may surprise everyone but that route tree is not all the uncommon. I was just running a power spread offense so a little bit different but we had about that many routes, with our slot WRs we had more. The big difference is I didn't ask the Running Backs to do half of that, we had 4 base routes and screens for the RB. So most NFL offenses are going to have a similar route tree to the one you showed from Mike and probably most are going to have more than that nowadays.

I imagine Kyle is somewhat true to the WCO in how he calls it so it's a combination of concept calls and tags. 2 Jet All Go X Drag. So have a base concept then tag a single WR or build off the concept and tag an adjustment. Where it becomes wordy is telling each player different alignments and motions.

I know most offensive coordinators, maybe not as much in NFL but still holds true, try to simplify things to a certain extent. So how I make a pass game we will have our base plays, usually 3-4 quick game, 5-7 Drop back, 2-4 playaction/movement. That's are go to pass plays we have in the game plan basically every week. Then on top of that you have your opponent specific plays, could be a totally new concept or 1 we havent run in a while or maybe an adjustment to one of our base plays. Now when you have a veteran offense that number may go up, for me last year with an inexperienced offense and sophomore QB, that number went down a little bit. So I see Kyle does that a bit with CJ, but you can tell what his base plays are, you see it every week.

My base concepts were:
Quick Game: Stop - Switch - Chase - Snake
Dropback: Follow - Hound - Cat - Shallow/Drive (2x2/3x1 adjustment) - Vert - Post
PA/Movement: Post - V - Rip - Hound

Anyway I'll stop rambling.

Did I miss the breakdown on Garoppolo plays?

Here you go.

4th and 5 at Seattle 18 ydl.

Motion Hyde into Empty. Seattle plays Cov 3 to the trips and man up the 2 WR Side.

Basically a levels/follow concept with a whip by #3 (Celek) to the trips and the 10 yard out and MOR Fade by hyde to the twins.



Jimmy takes a peak at the trips and comes back to Robinson to the boundary. Good quick strike on target, 1st down.

Jimmy G's 1st 49er TD pass.

No huddle after converting the 1st down (above). Line up in 2x2 set and are running Lion like they had several times in the game vs the Seahawks. Seattle D running Cov 2 Read as they were doing in passing situations.

I'm assuming Jimmy looks to the top of the picture because of the width of the alley defender but to the bottom he had a chance to rip #1 on the slant.


Really love Jimmy G's balance on his settle step (last step in the 3 step), it really fires me up to a level that is embarrassing to admit.

Anyway Jimmy looks to his right doesn't like it and breaks the pocket and keeps his eyes downfield. Protection actually was fine. Murphy basically stays on path and crossing in the front of the endzone gaining separation.


Quick release rocket getting his hips to throw, TD Jimmy G ladies and gentlemen. Great contested catch from Murphy.

End zone shot. Jimmy G spent way too much time with Brady, the footwork is so damn similar.

Best freak'n football thread on the net!

Originally posted by jgarf08:
Good question. There were elements I absolutely loved. Some of wrinkles they had from time to time was absolutely genius both in the run and pass game. The run game was consistent and the QB run game they eventually installed was a good change up, although done incorrectly at times and I am still under the belief they never actually "read" any thing, I think they were called not a true zone-read for the QB.

I think ultimately where Roman and company struggled was relying too much on horizontal stretches in the pass game, which is not an uncommon fault in all west coast offenses. But towards the end of their tenure, even before the wheels fell off teams sat tight with their underneath coverage, blanketing concepts.

I would also say they became very predictable, certain pers and sets were auto run/pass formations the defense keyed on. It got to a point where I could call out the play just from seeing the alignment. And a sense of stubborness in the play calling with a lack of adjustment.

I know better to get into the QB play debate, but I think the coaching staff has a fair amount of blame in that. Long story short I wasn't devastated when Harbaugh left. I have some good insider stories about Harbaugh but I'll save those for another time.

Please, do tell.