Niners hire Kris Kocurek as DL coach

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I feel like it might have come from Kyle or even Lynch (with pushing solly inside more)...kyle kinda put his foot down. I do agree Saleh needs to take more control, see what the problems are, and correct them.

Totally agree. That Barrows tweet absolved Saleh of that duty and that's why I chimed in.

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:
Also worth saying that sometimes coaches just miss things sometimes too, and once they're missed it's hard to come back.

The 9ers have a TON of resources invested in Solomon Thomas, and Zgonia not believing in him could totally result in Zgonia needing to move on.

And Zgonia could be right and he could be wrong.

Back when I used to coach O-Line (no big deal, just JV high school level) I had a guard who never got any run with me, and I just didn't see it in him at all. Because of his size and because they had a hole in the roster they brought him up to Var the next year and by the end of that year he was anchoring the line on a ranked team that sent five or six people to D1 schools.

We had all been coaching together for long enough and I had been right enough times for people to not think I was an idiot, but coaches would ask me all the time what the heck happened and why he'd never gotten any run. And all I could say was "man, I don't know. I just really didn't see it." Everyone who has coached for any amount of time has had that happen to them before.

Of course I don't believe that some schmuck coaching high school ball is equivalent to a professional NFL coach, but the point is this stuff *does* happen.
Position coaches hold more sway than some people realize, and they're right sometimes, but wrong sometimes too. Getting Zgonia out of there and Kocurek in there could do nothing for Thomas, but it could do a lot too.

This is true!

I also feel like some coaches might have certain "guidelines" when it comes to what players play where. Mitchell is like 310 and he might value size and be a big component of stopping the run above anything else. Thomas was good as a edge defender, but couldn't pass rush to save his life on the outside. I think it was pretty obvious that they want Thomas inside as much as possible by getting him up to like 285 and having him PR vs guards/center all through training camp.

I feel like the coaching change couldn't hurt Thomas.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
So listening to a podcast with Barrows and he said the old DL coach ( I can't remember his name or spelling) wasn't a huge fan of Thomas, hence him not getting snaps inside until Kyle put his foot down. Earl Mitchell was his boy lol gross.

He also stated they might change defensive philosophies a little more geared to stopping the pass (duh) compared to priority #1, which was defending the run.

Why would the position coach dictate playing time...

Because the position coaches are managing the rotations during the game. In game Saleh might give input if he wants something that's not happening and between games Shanahan might give input if he wants something that's not happening, but it's the position coach who is solely focused on the D-line and most typically managing the rotation.

In-game rotations sure, but after the game, no, after the drive, if there is a problem with who is on the field in certain situations (Mitchell playing nickel DT instead of Solly), then it's Saleh's responsibility to notice and make that change. He needs to pull Zgonina to the side and give a direct order, "stop playing Mitchel in nickel, play Solly".
Done, problem solved.

This is the tweet that got me into this conversation (posted by Phoenix on page 12):

[Barrows] Zgonina was not a big fan of Thomas, which may explain Thomas' sporadic snap numbers at the beginning of the season and start to explain why Zgonina is no longer on the payroll.

Why was this problem (Mitchell playing over Solly) occurring for more than one game? During film review, Saleh can see that Zgon is playing Mitchell too much and make that change in time for the next drive, in the worst case next Sunday. I don't like what Barrows said because it blames Zgon for Solly not getting enough snaps. The responsibility falls on Saleh to tell Zgon if there are any changes that need to happen with the DL rotation.

I think any good coach relies on the coaches beneath them more than you might be giving credit for. And it's not like Solly was clearly outshining Mitchell and Day on the inside on the snaps he was getting or something.

Just by way of example, a lot of times this just comes down to impressions. In the first half of the year while watching tape Saleh says something like "Sheldon Day is really looking great, should we get him in there more?" and then Zgonia says "yeah he is, but he really plays his best as a 5th man and coming in amped up in d-line roation" and then Saleh says "sounds good." Then Day keeps doing it and Saleh comes back to it a few weeks later and says "Lets try Day in a start role," and because it's his boss Zgonia says "I'm on it." And it turns out Zgonia was right, and Day ends up sitting for the last few weeks while they try something else.

Beyond stuff like that, Saleh's not standing there with the D-line watching position drills every day. In game he's watching a ton of different things and also strategizing and calling plays.

The D-line coach is literally the only person who is watching and managing the D-line every play, and huddling up and talking strategy with them between most drives.

It's why it can take half a season or so for a change to happen. If Saleh's a good coordinator he *trusts* his position coaches who spend more time with each position group than he does, because he's not in those meeting rooms and he's not always watching those position group drills. So if Zgonia is telling him Solly just doesn't have it and is a liability, he's doing his job to listen to that, because if he doesn't trust Zgonia he wouldn't have him there to begin with.

In the second half of the year it was pretty clear that Shanahan intervened (as he did all over the roster by sitting down older guys and bringing up younger guys -- I'm guessing it was Shanny and not just Saleh because it all happened at around the same time on offense too).

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
So listening to a podcast with Barrows and he said the old DL coach ( I can't remember his name or spelling) wasn't a huge fan of Thomas, hence him not getting snaps inside until Kyle put his foot down. Earl Mitchell was his boy lol gross.

He also stated they might change defensive philosophies a little more geared to stopping the pass (duh) compared to priority #1, which was defending the run.

Why would the position coach dictate playing time...

Because the position coaches are managing the rotations during the game. In game Saleh might give input if he wants something that's not happening and between games Shanahan might give input if he wants something that's not happening, but it's the position coach who is solely focused on the D-line and most typically managing the rotation.

In-game rotations sure, but after the game, no, after the drive, if there is a problem with who is on the field in certain situations (Mitchell playing nickel DT instead of Solly), then it's Saleh's responsibility to notice and make that change. He needs to pull Zgonina to the side and give a direct order, "stop playing Mitchel in nickel, play Solly".
Done, problem solved.

This is the tweet that got me into this conversation (posted by Phoenix on page 12):

[Barrows] Zgonina was not a big fan of Thomas, which may explain Thomas' sporadic snap numbers at the beginning of the season and start to explain why Zgonina is no longer on the payroll.

Why was this problem (Mitchell playing over Solly) occurring for more than one game? During film review, Saleh can see that Zgon is playing Mitchell too much and make that change in time for the next drive, in the worst case next Sunday. I don't like what Barrows said because it blames Zgon for Solly not getting enough snaps. The responsibility falls on Saleh to tell Zgon if there are any changes that need to happen with the DL rotation.

I think any good coach relies on the coaches beneath them more than you might be giving credit for. And it's not like Solly was clearly outshining Mitchell and Day on the inside on the snaps he was getting or something.

Just by way of example, a lot of times this just comes down to impressions. In the first half of the year while watching tape Saleh says something like "Sheldon Day is really looking great, should we get him in there more?" and then Zgonia says "yeah he is, but he really plays his best as a 5th man and coming in amped up in d-line roation" and then Saleh says "sounds good." Then Day keeps doing it and Saleh comes back to it a few weeks later and says "Lets try Day in a start role," and because it's his boss Zgonia says "I'm on it." And it turns out Zgonia was right, and Day ends up sitting for the last few weeks while they try something else.

Beyond stuff like that, Saleh's not standing there with the D-line watching position drills every day. In game he's watching a ton of different things and also strategizing and calling plays.

The D-line coach is literally the only person who is watching and managing the D-line every play, and huddling up and talking strategy with them between most drives.

It's why it can take half a season or so for a change to happen. If Saleh's a good coordinator he *trusts* his position coaches who spend more time with each position group than he does, because he's not in those meeting rooms and he's not always watching those position group drills. So if Zgonia is telling him Solly just doesn't have it and is a liability, he's doing his job to listen to that, because if he doesn't trust Zgonia he wouldn't have him there to begin with.

In the second half of the year it was pretty clear that Shanahan intervened (as he did all over the roster by sitting down older guys and bringing up younger guys -- I'm guessing it was Shanny and not just Saleh because it all happened at around the same time on offense too).

Good thoughts, and I read your post about that guard you coached. It wasn't until after the bye week that Solly started to get more snaps (week 12). I suppose they finally reviewed the situation and gave Zgon the direct order to play Solly more. I still have a tough time thinking that Saleh is so caught with other things that he isn't able to review who is getting snaps in important situations, especially when it involves a prospect that the franchise has spent high capital on.

Going back to your real life experience, yeah it could be that Zgon was right all along, like you were right all along, that guard (Solly) sucks and doesn't deserve playing time. Barrow's tweet just seemed to imply that the 49ers wanted to play Solly more but Zgon prevented that from happening. I get that a staff has to trust their coaches, but if there is an issue that needs to be corrected, I put that on the higher ups (Saleh).

Originally posted by Niner4ever:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niner4ever:

I understand that Saleh is ultimately responsible for the defense but I am sensing that he is not getting the benefit of a doubt from some. In the end if he is incompetent then he will be canned. But, to not think that his lieutenants don't have certain responsibility doesn't make sense either.

It seems like he was mostly influenced by the Jags where they did have big personnel up front like us and after O'Neil, no doubt run defense was front and center. From listening to hours interviews he does seem more married towards run defense so this Woods move might be a strong way to shift that philosophy towards defending a passing league now esp. since they've devoted 10 draft picks+ to the secondary.

Yeah a philosophical shift is greatly needed. The strength of the defense is on the interior defensive line. Usually those are responsible for run stoppage. Since that is an area of strength it's now time to devout more attention to the pass defense. Good things coming to the defense in my opinion.

Totally!

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

I feel like it might have come from Kyle or even Lynch (with pushing solly inside more)...kyle kinda put his foot down. I do agree Saleh needs to take more control, see what the problems are, and correct them.

Totally agree. That Barrows tweet absolved Saleh of that duty and that's why I chimed in.

100% agree.

I find that its borderline incompetency if Saleh kept Mitchell inside on nickel just because of Zgonia's opinion. It makes zero sense.

Saleh had to be okay with Mitchell starting there too. Otherwise.....what is he watching in the film review???

The defensive line has too much potential to be this weak. They needed someone to kick them in the butt and/or crotch.

Originally posted by Ensatsu:

I find that its borderline incompetency if Saleh kept Mitchell inside on nickel just because of Zgonia's opinion. It makes zero sense.

Saleh had to be okay with Mitchell starting there too. Otherwise.....what is he watching in the film review???

Andy Reid signed Jordan Devey after he moved on from here. He has even started games for the Chiefs, including 2 this year. Is Reid incompetent?

Coaches sometimes trust certain players more than others because that player has the mental part of the scheme down.

Jerry Sullivan who many here hated despite the man having a pretty good track record as a WR's coach, would keep receivers from getting snaps in games if they struggled with the mental aspect or if they were sloppy with running routes.

Didn't Arik get inside snaps in sub packages too? If Thomas is buried on the depth chart under Kocurek, we have to accept that Thomas just isn't that good.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

So listening to a podcast with Barrows and he said the old DL coach ( I can't remember his name or spelling) wasn't a huge fan of Thomas, hence him not getting snaps inside until Kyle put his foot down. Earl Mitchell was his boy lol gross.

He also stated they might change defensive philosophies a little more geared to stopping the pass (duh) compared to priority #1, which was defending the run.

I'm kinda shocked Kyle didn't or wouldn't have a say in this. Or maybe he did.

Good info.

Hopefully ST really brings it in 2019!!

Originally posted by pdfortune:
The defensive line has too much potential to be this weak. They needed someone to kick them in the butt and/or crotch.

This! He needs to kick Thomas and DJ Jones right in the hole.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Totally!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

I feel like it might have come from Kyle or even Lynch (with pushing solly inside more)...kyle kinda put his foot down. I do agree Saleh needs to take more control, see what the problems are, and correct them.

Totally agree. That Barrows tweet absolved Saleh of that duty and that's why I chimed in.

100% agree.

X2

I had no idea that Line coaches had their OWN meeting , figuring saleh sat in on all position coaches meetings. Guess not. What this reminds one of is ,
"Who's on first?". And it sounds like Zongonnia is Z-gone for good reason. It seemed so stupid when lynch comes out and says, "Welp, we're gonna move Solly inside now."...and very next game, he lines up inside and saleh calls a D shift and there's Solly....on the OUTSIDE!. Jeez that was just two stinking days after the GM announces Solly is moving inside. It truly was a case of "Who's on first?"

Vince Lombardi well known for his "build your lines first", could have added....but be damn sure your position coaches know WTF they are doing. I wonder if they even had position coaches way back when. Whatever, zgonnia is z-gone and good dang riddance. Like Thl, tho, i am a little amazed that Saleh didn't have a better understanding of what exactly was going on. Once again, inexperience, which has been noted all along. I just hope he can manage oversite on DL while coaching the LBs...and can likewise interdigitate with Joe W. I will have to admit , however, just how the heck the D plays are going to be called? On 1st down saleh has run D. On 2nd and 6+ he calls pass D....or does Joe W call pass D.

I get one guy calls the D play but does Joe W have a voice in whether to play for Run or pass? Or is that just saleh, and if a pass play THEN Joe calls the pass D? Is that about it ...or am i way off base?

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Great!!! I had a hard time saying Zgonina now how they hell do you say this guys name!!!

Coss-u-reck if he Texas's it up.

Coats-u-wreck if he keeps it Polish.

Ha. Good one...Er 2

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Why would the position coach dictate playing time...

Barrows said the position coaches play a huge part in dictating snap counts

Thats idiotic. The position coaches' job should be to teach technique and discipline, not dictate game strategy. The DC should be determining playing time. When you call situational plays you should get to decide who is running those plays.