Niners hire Kris Kocurek as DL coach

Originally posted by thl408:
I think with the right personnel, the wide9 scheme can still be effective in this day and age. It's true they do need a certain type of DT to cover up the deficiency in run defense up the middle, but that's why the team spent a top pick on Kinlaw. They got the personnel right in 2019, but without a bookend to compliment Bosa, and a run stuffer at 3t, it can fall apart. I actually like that being base wide9 makes the SF defense unique compared to the rest of the NFL.

If wide9 is something DeMeco Ryans doesn't truly believe in, then get away from it. I don't know if wide9 is something Ryans simply inherited and didn't want to overhaul the defense, or if he truly wanted to keep it, and that's why they still use it.

Yup, and right now, we don't have the horses. If the 49ers are keeping it moving forward, I think they need to overhaul the IDL group this offseason. We need more big, beefy IDL that can defeat double teams in multiple ways and less undersized pure penetrators like Street and Givens because those guys rely too much on knifing doubles and struggle to consistently hold up when OL get hands on them.

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by thl408:
I think with the right personnel, the wide9 scheme can still be effective in this day and age. It's true they do need a certain type of DT to cover up the deficiency in run defense up the middle, but that's why the team spent a top pick on Kinlaw. They got the personnel right in 2019, but without a bookend to compliment Bosa, and a run stuffer at 3t, it can fall apart. I actually like that being base wide9 makes the SF defense unique compared to the rest of the NFL.

If wide9 is something DeMeco Ryans doesn't truly believe in, then get away from it. I don't know if wide9 is something Ryans simply inherited and didn't want to overhaul the defense, or if he truly wanted to keep it, and that's why they still use it.

Yup, and right now, we don't have the horses. If the 49ers are keeping it moving forward, I think they need to overhaul the IDL group this offseason. We need more big, beefy IDL that can defeat double teams in multiple ways and less undersized pure penetrators like Street and Givens because those guys rely too much on knifing doubles and struggle to consistently hold up when OL get hands on them.

Totally agree that the IDL needs to be stout players. They need to stalemate those double teams and allow the LBs to be clean. The wide9 isn't something a team uses to be strong with interior run defense so that's the compromise we have to accept. And run stuffing DTs can be found on day 3 of the draft, so to me, that's the lesser need. What they truly need to make the wide9 run deficiency worth the trouble is a bookend opposite Bosa. When there are two DEs that scream off the edge, the power of the wide9 is unlocked. I would gladly be a middling run defense if it meant the QB was getting pressured at the rate of the 2019 defense when Ford didn't have his knee/back/neck/hammy/groin issues.

Also, with the proliferation of the Shanahan offenses around the NFL, it does seem that being a base wide 9 would be advantageous vs wide zone.

Damn you, Kinlaw, we really need you to be healthy.

How can we possibly be talking about the D-Line with all those 1st round picks that we used on D-linemen?

At this point scheme shouldn't even matter!

The issue here is getting rid of Buckner, in 2019 our D-line carried us to the Super Bowl.

Originally posted by glorydayz:
How can we possibly be talking about the D-Line with all those 1st round picks that we used on D-linemen?

At this point scheme shouldn't even matter!

The issue here is getting rid of Buckner, in 2019 our D-line carried us to the Super Bowl.

Bunch of idiots.

Originally posted by spizzy:

Originally posted by dj43:
KK was hired to run the "all gas, no brakes" scheme of Saleh. That works as long as you have solid interior guys who just plug things up. The problem is that at some point you need a Jim Tomsula who froths at the mouth, farts at the mike, and bludgeons anyone standing in front of him. Teaching players how to be gritty in the trenches is as much an art form as flipping a DE game.

I mentioned it in another thread but Mike Vrabel brings that kind of quality to his team. They aren't always pretty but they will kick your butt with no apologies.

Vrabel would never run a wide 9

My point was not about wide 9. Rather it was all about the necessity of having tough, gritty interior guys with motors that never stop. Bosa certainly shows the motor and the talent but we don't have the right blend of guys in the middle.

Kocurek may or may not be the right guy to coach the DL, however, the results certainly are not acceptable nor what the team had in 2019.

Originally posted by Heroism:
Also, with the proliferation of the Shanahan offenses around the NFL, it does seem that being a base wide 9 would be advantageous vs wide zone.

Damn you, Kinlaw, we really need you to be healthy.

When i look at our D in all22 it looks really passive with all kinds of gaps and space. The front seven everyone's isolated from each other with huge gap and a half spaces between everyone. The line backers are 5 yards back guarding grass. Pretty easy to punch holes in. w9 has always been vulnerable to the run, delays and screens and it's just getting worse now.

Originally posted by thl408:
Totally agree that the IDL needs to be stout players. They need to stalemate those double teams and allow the LBs to be clean. The wide9 isn't something a team uses to be strong with interior run defense so that's the compromise we have to accept. And run stuffing DTs can be found on day 3 of the draft, so to me, that's the lesser need. What they truly need to make the wide9 run deficiency worth the trouble is a bookend opposite Bosa. When there are two DEs that scream off the edge, the power of the wide9 is unlocked. I would gladly be a middling run defense if it meant the QB was getting pressured at the rate of the 2019 defense when Ford didn't have his knee/back/neck/hammy/groin issues.

I'd like to see Hurst and Jones brought back and if I'm them I'd go hard after Landry or Reddick. I don't care what they have to do cap wise to make it happen.

Originally posted by Heroism:
Also, with the proliferation of the Shanahan offenses around the NFL, it does seem that being a base wide 9 would be advantageous vs wide zone.

Damn you, Kinlaw, we really need you to be healthy.

Agree. The Kinlaw injury hurts a lot, specially from a number 1 pick. We need him badly to man the inside.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

Originally posted by Heroism:
Also, with the proliferation of the Shanahan offenses around the NFL, it does seem that being a base wide 9 would be advantageous vs wide zone.

Damn you, Kinlaw, we really need you to be healthy.

When i look at our D in all22 it looks really passive with all kinds of gaps and space. The front seven everyone's isolated from each other with huge gap and a half spaces between everyone. The line backers are 5 yards back guarding grass. Pretty easy to punch holes in. w9 has always been vulnerable to the run, delays and screens and it's just getting worse now.

Agree, like you said, it's a pass rush scheme, and isn't really strong against the run. I think Kyle is banking on his offensive schemes outflanking the opposing defense and getting a jump on the other team and playing downhill pass rush against them the rest of the game, the way Kyle played the Rams this past week and dominated them. I think there is one aspect of the wide 9 that I think Demeco can take advantage of, and that's being able to play DT's at the DE position on base downs. You see Armstead playing big end, and you see Bosa, who's 275+ playing the other end. Playing more DT's at the end position can shore up the run liability in the wide 9, but hurts the pass rush for sure.

When a key cog in your defensive scheme is hurt (Kinlaw), it's always the case that the defense isn't as strong as it could be. With Kinlaw and Mcglinchy out this year, I can see them going offensive or defensive line early in next years draft.

Originally posted by Giedi:
Agree, like you said, it's a pass rush scheme, and isn't really strong against the run. I think Kyle is banking on his offensive schemes outflanking the opposing defense and getting a jump on the other team and playing downhill pass rush against them the rest of the game, the way Kyle played the Rams this past week and dominated them. I think there is one aspect of the wide 9 that I think Demeco can take advantage of, and that's being able to play DT's at the DE position on base downs. You see Armstead playing big end, and you see Bosa, who's 275+ playing the other end. Playing more DT's at the end position can shore up the run liability in the wide 9, but hurts the pass rush for sure.

When a key cog in your defensive scheme is hurt (Kinlaw), it's always the case that the defense isn't as strong as it could be. With Kinlaw and Mcglinchy out this year, I can see them going offensive or defensive line early in next years draft.

Nick Bosa said he is 260-265 and mentioned he lost weight for this season.

Also, the weakness of the wide 9 is up the middle, so playing IDL at edge doesn't help that. The scheme was designed in part to stop the outside zone, so putting IDL at edge and creating a footrace between RB or QB and IDL at the edge only creates more problems. We've seen this on toss plays and options when teams attack Arik Armstead to the perimeter.

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Agree, like you said, it's a pass rush scheme, and isn't really strong against the run. I think Kyle is banking on his offensive schemes outflanking the opposing defense and getting a jump on the other team and playing downhill pass rush against them the rest of the game, the way Kyle played the Rams this past week and dominated them. I think there is one aspect of the wide 9 that I think Demeco can take advantage of, and that's being able to play DT's at the DE position on base downs. You see Armstead playing big end, and you see Bosa, who's 275+ playing the other end. Playing more DT's at the end position can shore up the run liability in the wide 9, but hurts the pass rush for sure.

When a key cog in your defensive scheme is hurt (Kinlaw), it's always the case that the defense isn't as strong as it could be. With Kinlaw and Mcglinchy out this year, I can see them going offensive or defensive line early in next years draft.

Nick Bosa said he is 260-265 and mentioned he lost weight for this season.

Also, the weakness of the wide 9 is up the middle, so playing IDL at edge doesn't help that. The scheme was designed in part to stop the outside zone, so putting IDL at edge and creating a footrace between RB or QB and IDL at the edge only creates more problems. We've seen this on toss plays and options when teams attack Arik Armstead to the perimeter.

Agree, but I was thinking more when the D Line crashes inward on those inside runs. I.e. the "big ends" are crashing into the guard/tackle gaps and the DT's are crashing into the center/guard gaps, but you are correct, if the run play goes outside -- those DT's playing DE's won't have the footspeed to track those outside runs down in a sense, and if they want to stop those outside runs - they have to guess and shoot outside the tackles to maintain leverage on the edge and force the play inwards. Still, I think on base downs, playing the DT's as big ends, and having the option to crash inwards on those dive and off tackle plays can shore up the weakness of the wide 9 against the run. It's not the best scenario, but it's still an option specially if the defense is getting run over by the Jaguar run game.

Originally posted by Heroism:
I'm starting to lose faith in the wide 9 and questioning whether it's even worth keeping around moving forward. The run defense is horrific and most of it stems from the wide 9's inherent weakness up the middle.

Everyone on this DL stinks besides Nick Bosa, who transcends scheme and can shine in any front. Right now, we're getting all the pitfalls of the wide 9 without many of the pass-rushing benefits. It might be time to reconsider if it's worth keeping it moving forward.

Going back i saw this, but maybe keep it for a team with a top flite QB and 4 great receivers?

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Originally posted by Heroism:
I'm starting to lose faith in the wide 9 and questioning whether it's even worth keeping around moving forward. The run defense is horrific and most of it stems from the wide 9's inherent weakness up the middle.

Everyone on this DL stinks besides Nick Bosa, who transcends scheme and can shine in any front. Right now, we're getting all the pitfalls of the wide 9 without many of the pass-rushing benefits. It might be time to reconsider if it's worth keeping it moving forward.

Going back i saw this, but maybe keep it for a team with a top flite QB and 4 great receivers?

I think that was what Kyle was counting on. However Pettis and Hurd flamed out and you only have half the intended squad.

Originally posted by glorydayz:
How can we possibly be talking about the D-Line with all those 1st round picks that we used on D-linemen?

At this point scheme shouldn't even matter!

The issue here is getting rid of Buckner, in 2019 our D-line carried us to the Super Bowl.

We should have a hall of fame D-line with all the draft capital the team has Invested over the years.