Mitch Wishnowsky - Punter (Utah) is a 49er

Originally posted by DonnieDarko:

Originally posted by mayo49:
It looks like NE was going to take him if we didn't.

yup

I mean this is literally how the draft works. Take the player you want before other teams do.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

He needs to be a top 3 punter to justify this selection. Solid top 10 punter is not good enough to warrant a mid 4th. There were a couple of safeties and a bunch of guards selected soon after Wish was picked. If any of those guy become solid players, I'd rather have those guys.

A couple successful fake punts with him using his run ability and that would help me understand why he was valued so highly. I don't know if Kyle goes there (punt fakes), don't think he has in the past. Still, mid 4th I'd rather take a shot in the dark at a possible offensive/defensive starter.

If we were a Jim Harbaugh team in 2012 where running the ball, ball control, clock control and coupled with a top 5 defense to boot, a punter of this caliber would be a massive weapon (Andy Lee). A team like Seattle? Good move for their philosophy.

But for an offensive philosophy like ours? You just need a solid guy there.

Hightower hasn't run a trick ST play his entire career.

If he ends up as a top 3 punter, it probably means offensively, we fell on our face.

Another huge concern is his style of punting. Running to punt like you're about to run an RPO isn't going to work in the NFL. You'll be running right into the rush.

One of the issues with the Seattle kicker IIRC was that his delivery was long and he started getting kicks blocked and returned for TD's later in the year (twice against the Cards). Then he struggled because he had to speed up. Otherwise he was really really good up to that point.

We're still a ball control team, it's just based on passing. On top of that, it's an explosive ball control team. On top of that, maybe this team will have a top defense along the lines that Jim Harbaugh had, now that we have the Smith Brothers 2.0

We certainly are not a ball control team. We live in the intermediate passing game (JG's strength), not the short passing game to RB's. Maybe that changes going forward but I doubt it esp. adding more intermediate weapons proven in that area at the college level (Samuel, Hurd and Kaden). That's also why we lead the league in sacks and QB hits; those intermediate routes take a bit longer to develop.

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by DonnieDarko:

Originally posted by mayo49:

It looks like NE was going to take him if we didn't.

yup

I mean this is literally how the draft works. Take the player you want before other teams do.

Perceived panic.

Originally posted by Willisfn4life:

Originally posted by thl408:
He needs to be a top 3 punter to justify this selection. Solid top 10 punter is not good enough to warrant a mid 4th. There were a couple of safeties and a bunch of guards selected soon after Wish was picked. If any of those guy become solid players, I'd rather have those guys.

A couple successful fake punts with him using his run ability and that would help me understand why he was valued so highly. I don't know if Kyle goes there (punt fakes), don't think he has in the past. Still, mid 4th I'd rather take a shot in the dark at a possible offensive/defensive starter.

I've felt for months that the team would poor it's money and draft capital into the linebackers, pass rush, and receivers this season. I also stated that I think they'll look to add more to the above position groups you stated next year.

Lynch has been transparent about only wanting players that they really feel can make the team. We needed a punter and they took the best in the draft. Otherwise in your day 3 picks your looking for special teams players and developmental prospects. I understand wanting more depth at the oline, but they've added oline players every year after the draft since Lynch/Shanny got here in fa. They may not be done. For now as far as the oline and defensive backfield, the team chose continuity on the line, a revamped medical/strength and conditioning team and upgraded the coaching for the defensive backfield. Let's see what a fresh coach can do for our some of our younger defensive backfield players and see if all these medical team changes can do a better job keeping the oline healthy.

Excellent points. I still remember the fact that Kyle was so late in hiring coaches because he was hired so late. We now have some veteran coaches to help Saleh. Kiffen and Kocurek can probably be good DC's somewhere down the road. Lets see how the new coaches do in improving the current players we have. They *should* be successful because the DB's now have the luxury of a tremendous pass rush in Dee Ford and Bosa. This is a much more improved defense (I think on paper) than our front seven in 2010 and 2011. We had Brooks and Aldon coming off the edges. Here we have Dee Ford and Bosa coming off the edges. I think Dee Ford is a hell of a lot more talented than Ahmad Brooks. Add in Solomon and Buckner and Sherman. We don't have the linebackers we had since then, but I'd rather have mediocre linebacker play and excellent D Line and DB play vs excellent linebacker play in a pass happy NFC West division.

Originally posted by okdkid:
So, if he's 3rd best it's good. If he's 6th best it's bad.

lol wut

Yeah that sounds odd what I posted above. But a mid 4th punter has to be very good, not just 'a starter', not just 'solid'.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by okdkid:
So, if he's 3rd best it's good. If he's 6th best it's bad.

lol wut

Yeah that sounds odd what I posted above. But a mid 4th punter has to be very good, not just 'a starter', not just 'solid'.

I think the issue is people are just being far too absolute. We don't live in a binary world. Yes, we all expect the top punter in the draft to be among the best at his position. Just like we expect Bosa to be among the top of his. Don't know how there can be a hard cutoff for good/bad though.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 49ers81:

Originally posted by thl408:
He needs to be a top 3 punter to justify this selection. Solid top 10 punter is not good enough to warrant a mid 4th. There were a couple of safeties and a bunch of guards selected soon after Wish was picked. If any of those guy become solid players, I'd rather have those guys.

A couple successful fake punts with him using his run ability and that would help me understand why he was valued so highly. I don't know if Kyle goes there (punt fakes), don't think he has in the past. Still, mid 4th I'd rather take a shot in the dark at a possible offensive/defensive starter.

Don't agree with this at all. He is a day one starter, how many fourth round picks can you say that about. If Lynch is right and he can hold that position for the next 10 years then he is well worth the investment of a fourth round pick. I think I read somewhere that he is the only punter to have won the Ray Guy award three times. His last 106 punts have netted 100 TOTAL return yards. Plus he can be used for kickoffs and as a holder. It was a position of need and they decided to use the pick to get a guy that they thought would be good rather than use a later round pick to get a guy who would just be a guy. .

A top 20 punter is a starter too. But is that worth a mid 4th rounder? If not, then where do you draw the line where a mid 4th rounder is not worthy of going punter? Honest question because I don't believe you'd be happy with top 20 ability. Maybe you are, I don't know. What type of ability do you want to see to say, "he was worth a mid 4th", because just being a starting punter isn't good enough imo. I'm not discrediting a punter's ability to affect the game. A booming 55 harder with no return can help a team slip the field in a defensive battle. That would be top 3 ability and worth it.

Let's try not to take the quotes out of context shall we. I said, if Lynch is right and he holds the position for the next ten years than he certainly would have been worth the pick in the fourth. Obviously if he is good enough to hold the position for ten years then he must be doing something right. Pinion was an okay punter but not good enough that they felt the need to try and keep him, why should you expect the same criteria wouldn't be applied to this guy if he doesn't work out? The hope is that his success in college translates to the pros and that the team, in fact, doesn't need to replace him for ten years in which case getting him as a fourth round pick would seem like a pretty good deal.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:
He needs to be a top 3 punter to justify this selection. Solid top 10 punter is not good enough to warrant a mid 4th. There were a couple of safeties and a bunch of guards selected soon after Wish was picked. If any of those guy become solid players, I'd rather have those guys.

A couple successful fake punts with him using his run ability and that would help me understand why he was valued so highly. I don't know if Kyle goes there (punt fakes), don't think he has in the past. Still, mid 4th I'd rather take a shot in the dark at a possible offensive/defensive starter.

If we were a Jim Harbaugh team in 2012 where running the ball, ball control, clock control and coupled with a top 5 defense to boot, a punter of this caliber would be a massive weapon (Andy Lee). A team like Seattle? Good move for their philosophy.

But for an offensive philosophy like ours? You just need a solid guy there.

Hightower hasn't run a trick ST play his entire career.

If he ends up as a top 3 punter, it probably means offensively, we fell on our face.

Another huge concern is his style of punting. Running to punt like you're about to run an RPO isn't going to work in the NFL. You'll be running right into the rush.

One of the issues with the Seattle kicker IIRC was that his delivery was long and he started getting kicks blocked and returned for TD's later in the year (twice against the Cards). Then he struggled because he had to speed up. Otherwise he was really really good up to that point.

We're still a ball control team, it's just based on passing. On top of that, it's an explosive ball control team. On top of that, maybe this team will have a top defense along the lines that Jim Harbaugh had, now that we have the Smith Brothers 2.0

We certainly are not a ball control team. We live in the intermediate passing game (JG's strength), not the short passing game to RB's. Maybe that changes going forward but I doubt it esp. adding more intermediate weapons proven in that area at the college level (Samuel, Hurd and Kaden). That's also why we lead the league in sacks and QB hits; those intermediate routes take a bit longer to develop.

You really can't be a ball control team if your defense can't hold a lead. Having said that, Kyle can morph the offense into any offense he chooses with the kinds of players he's acquired. The only thing he can't really do well is a power run gap blocking offense - he'll have to radically change his OLinemen to do that. But he doesn't need to. His Zone run offense will do the job on the ground, just enough to take heat off his bread and butter pass plays.

I don't think a lot of 49er fans appreciate how the zone run allows an explosive lightning fast RB to not only be productive but control the clock at the same time. In the olden days, you needed a Rocky Bleir/Franco Harris back that have good size and tackle breaking ability to be productive in a power run offense. Now with the zone run, your smaller and faster RB's *that can catch* can do the same thing - just in a different way. If you look at all our arby's - they are basically WR's playing arbys.

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by okdkid:
So, if he's 3rd best it's good. If he's 6th best it's bad.

lol wut

Yeah that sounds odd what I posted above. But a mid 4th punter has to be very good, not just 'a starter', not just 'solid'.

I think the issue is people are just being far too absolute. We don't live in a binary world. Yes, we all expect the top punter in the draft to be among the best at his position. Just like we expect Bosa to be among the top of his. Don't know how there can be a hard cutoff for good/bad though.

Yeah you're right, there isn't some absolute cutoff. Let me take back what I said about top 3 and instead say he needs to be a game changing type of punter. Be able to flip field position on a regular basis. It's not like I can rank punters anyway.
Net punt yardage isn't a good indicator to me since punting from midfield means the punter can't punt for max distance. Coffin corner kicks when needed, high hang time to force fair catches inside the 15 when needed, or booming 60 yards when needed. Our eye test will tell us if he's a good punter.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by okdkid:
So, if he's 3rd best it's good. If he's 6th best it's bad.

lol wut

Yeah that sounds odd what I posted above. But a mid 4th punter has to be very good, not just 'a starter', not just 'solid'.

I think the issue is people are just being far too absolute. We don't live in a binary world. Yes, we all expect the top punter in the draft to be among the best at his position. Just like we expect Bosa to be among the top of his. Don't know how there can be a hard cutoff for good/bad though.

Yeah you're right, there isn't some absolute cutoff. Let me take back what I said about top 3 and instead say he needs to be a game changing type of punter. Be able to flip field position on a regular basis. It's not like I can rank punters anyway.
Net punt yardage isn't a good indicator to me since punting from midfield means the punter can't punt for max distance. Coffin corner kicks when needed, high hang time to force fair catches inside the 15 when needed, or booming 60 yards when needed. Our eye test will tell us if he's a good punter.

Yeah agreed. But this guy hardly ever has his punts returned. 100 total return yards in 106 punts. Insane stuff.

Originally posted by 49ers81:
Let's try not to take the quotes out of context shall we. I said, if Lynch is right and he holds the position for the next ten years than he certainly would have been worth the pick in the fourth. Obviously if he is good enough to hold the position for ten years then he must be doing something right. Pinion was an okay punter but not good enough that they felt the need to try and keep him, why should you expect the same criteria wouldn't be applied to this guy if he doesn't work out? The hope is that his success in college translates to the pros and that the team, in fact, doesn't need to replace him for ten years in which case getting him as a fourth round pick would seem like a pretty good deal.

Yes, if he holds the position for 10 years, he's worth it. If that's what you will use to measure his worth of the selection, then go ahead and go with that.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by okdkid:
So, if he's 3rd best it's good. If he's 6th best it's bad.

lol wut

Yeah that sounds odd what I posted above. But a mid 4th punter has to be very good, not just 'a starter', not just 'solid'.

I had a vigorous back and forth with MadDog on the draft, and while in general, you don't choose a punter lower than 5th, if he has a unique skill and the team has a need, then it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do - to get your player that you want one round earlier to make sure you get it because you *value* that pick more than other picks. I thought it was a great pick, simply because you usually don't see punters running a 4.6 40 in the draft. I really think that on a fourth and one - a fake punt *really* is a possibility. The opposing special teams guys - have to put up a lot of people up front in an almost goal line formation to protect that 1 yard and basically have no guys that will make a strong punt return. So not only does he have speed, but he also has one hell of a leg. Games have been won because of an inch. Mich can win us games where inches matter.

Originally posted by niners94:
Better be prime Andy Lee level.

I was thinking the same thing. If he is anything like Andy Lee I wont be upset. Andy Lee was a big part of us winning in the Harbaugh years. I hope this guy can help us control field position like Lee did.

Originally posted by NCommand:

We certainly are not a ball control team. We live in the intermediate passing game (JG's strength), not the short passing game to RB's. Maybe that changes going forward but I doubt it esp. adding more intermediate weapons proven in that area at the college level (Samuel, Hurd and Kaden). That's also why we lead the league in sacks and QB hits; those intermediate routes take a bit longer to develop.

TOP per drive in 2018 for 49ers: 2:45

TOP per drive in 2011 for 49ers: 2:46

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
We certainly are not a ball control team. We live in the intermediate passing game (JG's strength), not the short passing game to RB's. Maybe that changes going forward but I doubt it esp. adding more intermediate weapons proven in that area at the college level (Samuel, Hurd and Kaden). That's also why we lead the league in sacks and QB hits; those intermediate routes take a bit longer to develop.

TOP per drive in 2018 for 49ers: 2:45

TOP per drive in 2011 for 49ers: 2:46

Nice stats!