Defensive Line Thread

Originally posted by Hysterikal:
They are too f**king tall

I hope we've seen the end of high-cut interior DL.

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by Hysterikal:
They are too f**king tall

I hope we've seen the end of high-cut interior DL.

Unless it's a Buckner level player I want natural low pad level. Give me 6' Grady Jarrett all f**kin day

Originally posted by Hysterikal:
They are too f**king tall

I guess my ? is are these shorter guys going to be able to do what those bohemoths were asked to do which is constantly take on double teams.

It took a toll on Hargrave.

Originally posted by Hysterikal:
Unless it's a Buckner level player I want natural low pad level. Give me 6' Grady Jarrett all f**kin day

Facts.

Originally posted by MoistButtCheeks:
I guess my ? is are these shorter guys going to be able to do what those bohemoths were asked to do which is constantly take on double teams.

It took a toll on Hargrave.

That's exactly why they're being brought in.

49ers are one really good run-stopping nose away from having the most well-rounded DL they've had in years.

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by Hysterikal:
Unless it's a Buckner level player I want natural low pad level. Give me 6' Grady Jarrett all f**kin day

Facts.

Originally posted by MoistButtCheeks:
I guess my ? is are these shorter guys going to be able to do what those bohemoths were asked to do which is constantly take on double teams.

It took a toll on Hargrave.

That's exactly why they're being brought in.

49ers are one really good run-stopping nose away from having the most well-rounded DL they've had in years.

You think to take on double teams? That's what the raiders tried to do with Collins after he left Dallas and it was a complete disaster.

Originally posted by MoistButtCheeks:
You think to take on double teams? That's what the raiders tried to do with Collins after he left Dallas and it was a complete disaster.

You do realize both of these guys are coming from teams that also play base wide 9 fronts? Kinlaw and Givens were both bad at taking on double teams, so Elliott and Collins are upgrades over both of them. I don't think anyone is expecting either of these guys to play in base, so barring injuries, they're going to be part of a rotation.

The reason Hargraves wore down was because he played way too much 2i in base. Most of us expect him to move to AA's spot at 3technique. That leaves the base 2i nose spot open for a FA/rookie.

I dunno hero, unless something changes in the scheme I feel like our defensive tackles are going to get left out to dry. New DC in town so I guess it's entirely possible.

Originally posted by Heroism:
The NFC knows they have to get through San Francisco, and they've highlighted the run defense as the primary weakness to attack. Every contender in the NFC is loading up on RB. Also, as thl mentioned, this is also reaction the defensive trends in the NFL.

I do think, on a macro level, that the running game is going to make a bit of a comeback after multiple years of 11 personnel (3WRs) being the clear dominant grouping, with spread pass attacks being the trend. That time may be coming to an end as scheme shifts continue to occur. I anticipate base defensive personnel getting attacked as teams have prioritized the slot CB and neglected the SAM linebacker position, and that's an area offenses will look to exploit.

We've discussed this a few times, but to summarize what the league has gone through over the past decade...
2000 - 2010: Monte Kiffin's Tampa2/Cover2 schemes made popular (Tony Dungy/Lovie Smith). Offenses adjusted by attacking the short middle of field.
2011 - 2017ish: Seattle Cover3 is popular to take away the middle of the field. Offenses go Outside zone/playaction to bait the 8 box defenders; hit intermediate crossers.
2018 - 2023??: Fangio Quarters with 1.5 gapping to allow two safety shells that take away intermediate crossers and spread passing concepts. Offenses will start running the ball to take advantage of the light box (two safety shells)

We are here in the scheme wars.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.ganggreennation.com/2024/1/25/24047481/is-the-running-game-making-a-comeback-examining-rushing-to-passing-ratios-breece-hall-new-york-jets
What this implies is teams are relying on the run game more than they were in recent years. This is likely due to the demonstrated success of rushing attacks like the one helmed by San Francisco 49ers Head Coach Kyle Shanahan, and the ones quarterbacked by dual threat quarterbacks like the Baltimore Ravens' Lamar Jackson or the Buffalo Bills' Josh Allen. Indeed, the NFL is nothing if not a copycat league, so the success of those teams was always destined to be copied in due time.

Originally posted by thl408:
I do think, on a macro level, that the running game is going to make a bit of a comeback after multiple years of 11 personnel (3WRs) being the clear dominant grouping, with spread pass attacks being the trend. That time may be coming to an end as scheme shifts continue to occur. I anticipate base defensive personnel getting attacked as teams have prioritized the slot CB and neglected the SAM linebacker position, and that's an area offenses will look to exploit.

We've discussed this a few times, but to summarize what the league has gone through over the past decade...
2000 - 2010: Monte Kiffin's Tampa2/Cover2 schemes made popular (Tony Dungy/Lovie Smith). Offenses adjusted by attacking the short middle of field.
2011 - 2017ish: Seattle Cover3 is popular to take away the middle of the field. Offenses go Outside zone/playaction to bait the 8 box defenders; hit intermediate crossers.
2018 - 2023??: Fangio Quarters with 1.5 gapping to allow two safety shells that take away intermediate crossers and spread passing concepts. Offenses will start running the ball to take advantage of the light box (two safety shells)

We are here in the scheme wars.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.ganggreennation.com/2024/1/25/24047481/is-the-running-game-making-a-comeback-examining-rushing-to-passing-ratios-breece-hall-new-york-jets
What this implies is teams are relying on the run game more than they were in recent years. This is likely due to the demonstrated success of rushing attacks like the one helmed by San Francisco 49ers Head Coach Kyle Shanahan, and the ones quarterbacked by dual threat quarterbacks like the Baltimore Ravens' Lamar Jackson or the Buffalo Bills' Josh Allen. Indeed, the NFL is nothing if not a copycat league, so the success of those teams was always destined to be copied in due time.

A comparatively larger amount of the NFL's yardage and touchdown production is now coming on the ground rather than through the air.

The past four years have been closer to 2008-2009 (basically the Stone Age) than most of the 2010s. pic.twitter.com/6XygSb0UyV

— Ryan Heath (@QBLRyan) January 18, 2024

Good stuff. Here's a great video on the topic. At the end of the video, he talks about how teams will counter these defenses and points at the running game. Also, the end hurts because he made this video in the middle of the season and implied the Niners would win the SB.

Originally posted by Heroism:
Good stuff. Here's a great video on the topic. At the end of the video, he talks about how teams will counter these defenses and points at the running game. Also, the end hurts because he made this video in the middle of the season and implied the Niners would win the SB.

Wow that was a nice video and it touches on what could be coming next as offenses adjust to Fangio's scheme - the rise of the Cover0 look. KC and BAL gave us a glimpse of how that looks. Maybe not necessarily Cover0, but pressure disguises and simulated pressures (rush 4 but confuse the offense as to which four are coming)

If offenses want to use prensnap motion and compacted formations to confuse Fangio's pattern match schemes, and the run game to attack the two deep safeties, then defenses will crowd the line, discourage the run game, and bring the 4th rusher from a disguised location to confuse pass pro (KC was good at this).

Originally posted by thl408:
Wow that was a nice video and it touches on what could be coming next as offenses adjust to Fangio's scheme - the rise of the Cover0 look. KC and BAL gave us a glimpse of how that looks. Maybe not necessarily Cover0, but pressure disguises and simulated pressures (rush 4 but confuse the offense as to which four are coming)

If offenses want to use prensnap motion and compacted formations to confuse Fangio's pattern match schemes, and the run game to attack the two deep safeties, then defenses will crowd the line, discourage the run game, and bring the 4th rusher from a disguised location to confuse pass pro (KC was good at this).

I wonder if we see an increase in jumbo personnel and inline tight end/multiple tight ends usage.

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by thl408:
Wow that was a nice video and it touches on what could be coming next as offenses adjust to Fangio's scheme - the rise of the Cover0 look. KC and BAL gave us a glimpse of how that looks. Maybe not necessarily Cover0, but pressure disguises and simulated pressures (rush 4 but confuse the offense as to which four are coming)

If offenses want to use prensnap motion and compacted formations to confuse Fangio's pattern match schemes, and the run game to attack the two deep safeties, then defenses will crowd the line, discourage the run game, and bring the 4th rusher from a disguised location to confuse pass pro (KC was good at this).

I wonder if we see an increase in jumbo personnel and inline tight end usage.

For sure. That has already begun imo. DET was using a damn OL as their second TE to bring the beef in the run game. This could be the new wave in the NFL. Probably not as a primary grouping, but we will see it as a way offenses test the defense. Anyway, this is why I want the 49ers to be three deep in their LB group. Can't neglect the SAM position anymore as some bit player. If he's weak, he'll get attacked by the offense.

(Hoodie talks about three TE personnel).
https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/bill-belichick-details-how-browns-three-tight-end-formation-powers-their-running-game
"These guys use three tight ends more than anybody in the league," Belichick told Patriots.com. "They use the jumbo lineman more than anybody in the league. They use two tight ends a lot. Again, multiple formations, multiple shifts, and a lot of stuff before the snap. Then the ball is snapped you better be ready to go because they're coming after you, and they've got a great back, so there's no rest for the weary there."
"It's one tight end, two tight ends, three tight ends, two tight ends and a jumbo lineman. There are multiple formations where they put them all on one side and balance them off. Put them all on the other side and shift them from one side to the other side. Shift from balanced to overloaded. Unbalanced line, shift unbalanced line, you name it. There are a lot of things for the defense to worry about."

DET in the NFCCG:
(Like you mentioned in some thread, Jim Harbaugh likes this)

Originally posted by thl408:
For sure. That has already begun imo. DET was using a damn OL as their second TE to bring the beef in the run game. This could be the new wave in the NFL. Probably not as a primary grouping, but we will see it as a way offenses test the defense. Anyway, this is why I want the 49ers to be three deep in their LB group. Can't neglect the SAM position anymore as some bit player. If he's weak, he'll get attacked by the offense.

(Hoodie talks about three TE personnel).
https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/bill-belichick-details-how-browns-three-tight-end-formation-powers-their-running-game
"These guys use three tight ends more than anybody in the league," Belichick told Patriots.com. "They use the jumbo lineman more than anybody in the league. They use two tight ends a lot. Again, multiple formations, multiple shifts, and a lot of stuff before the snap. Then the ball is snapped you better be ready to go because they're coming after you, and they've got a great back, so there's no rest for the weary there."
"It's one tight end, two tight ends, three tight ends, two tight ends and a jumbo lineman. There are multiple formations where they put them all on one side and balance them off. Put them all on the other side and shift them from one side to the other side. Shift from balanced to overloaded. Unbalanced line, shift unbalanced line, you name it. There are a lot of things for the defense to worry about."

DET in the NFCCG:
(Like you mentioned in some thread, Jim Harbaugh likes this)

We've entered a wormhole and gone back to 2011.

inline TE 📈
jumbo personnel 📈
run-stopping DL 📈

It won't be long until teams want 240-pound LBs and FBs again.

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by thl408:
For sure. That has already begun imo. DET was using a damn OL as their second TE to bring the beef in the run game. This could be the new wave in the NFL. Probably not as a primary grouping, but we will see it as a way offenses test the defense. Anyway, this is why I want the 49ers to be three deep in their LB group. Can't neglect the SAM position anymore as some bit player. If he's weak, he'll get attacked by the offense.

(Hoodie talks about three TE personnel).
https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/bill-belichick-details-how-browns-three-tight-end-formation-powers-their-running-game
"These guys use three tight ends more than anybody in the league," Belichick told Patriots.com. "They use the jumbo lineman more than anybody in the league. They use two tight ends a lot. Again, multiple formations, multiple shifts, and a lot of stuff before the snap. Then the ball is snapped you better be ready to go because they're coming after you, and they've got a great back, so there's no rest for the weary there."
"It's one tight end, two tight ends, three tight ends, two tight ends and a jumbo lineman. There are multiple formations where they put them all on one side and balance them off. Put them all on the other side and shift them from one side to the other side. Shift from balanced to overloaded. Unbalanced line, shift unbalanced line, you name it. There are a lot of things for the defense to worry about."

DET in the NFCCG:
(Like you mentioned in some thread, Jim Harbaugh likes this)

We've entered a wormhole and gone back to 2011.

inline TE 📈
jumbo personnel 📈
run-stopping DL 📈

It won't be long until teams want 240-pound LBs and FBs again.

Lol harbaugh. he was doing the 12 formation and jumbo formations back in 2011 with the 9ers.

AA signing with Jacksonville.